Best way to add Arsenic to alloy. Without wheel weights.

[Phoenix]

I have a few thousand pounds of Lead. All different alloys but none of it is wheel weights. I am working on starting to heat treat. The key to heat treating according to many sources including our favorite the lasc is arsenic is the required element for heat treating to work. Also need antimony but that is not an issue.

Obviosly adding wheel weights to lead alloy without As is not the answer as it would drastically reduce the As content and make the lead harder to heat treat. The amount of antimony and arsenic are directly responsible for heat treat hardening. Most alloy mixers are recommending .25% for heat treating which is the typical amount in WW. The issue is mixing 1:3 ww to other lead alloys would result in 1/4 the arsenic content. So I am looking at ways to normalize the arsenic content. It looks like you can buy arsenic lead with concentrations of 8%-30% but it is impossible to find.

Does anyone add arsenic to their alloy without using WW? I am interested in hearing what you are using and where you get it. The problem with WW is they only have a trace so I cant dilute the alloy as much as I would like. I do not plan to buy 2000 more pounds of WW to mix with my 2000 pounds of non. Arsenic itself melts at over 1500 degF so obviously that is not a good idea to mess with.

Thanks in advance

[felix]

Shotgun shot, magnum type has some. Amount is under the 5 percent range for sure. Also might include some antimony. ... felix

[Phoenix]

I know it has As in it. Sometimes as much as 1.25% but none of the manufacturers will tell you what the % is. I just got an email from rotometals, None of their alloys have known amounts of As. The problem is I hate dealing with unknowns. That is why I had most of my lead assayed I cooked up a bunch of 100# batches and had samples from each batch tested. Would be nice if someone sold something similar to superhard but for adding As.

[fryboy]

i find too few ww's so i make a mix that approximates them , 4 to 1 lead lino , of those 4 pounds of lead i make sure that one pound is lead shot , it water quenches ok and oven heat treats just as well , the percentage isnt real critical as compared to Sb & Sn , that same alloy reduced even further for my super soft alloy ( again 4 Pb to 1 ww type alloy ) also water quenches well ( and expands beautifully at 45 acp velocities in a HP configuration !! ) only if i'm making my super soft alloy from ww's do i add the magnum shot to insure that there is a spot of As in it

[runfiverun]

sulpher can substitute for arsenic.

[pipehand]

Does any OTC rat poison still have arsenic in it?

[Phoenix]

Does any OTC rat poison still have arsenic in it?

I am pretty sure that is elemental arsenic. the melting point is over 1500 degrees so it would not be very easy to get that into the alloy. And rat poison is now an anti-coagulant. Which basically makes the rat/mouse bleed out internally. I dont think they make any with arsenic anymore.

[303Guy]

Rat poison would have used arsenic salts, not the elemental metal. Yes?

There's been a thread on adding sulphur to lead but I didn't follow it. Could we have a link please?

Copper is another option. Check out the copper threads.

[waksupi]

Listen to Uncle Felix. He knows what he's talking about.

[runfiverun]

depending on the brand of shot you buy you can get up to 5% antimony content.
i know #8 shot from lawrence brand magnum and remington brand are both 5%.
#6 magnum shot is 3% antimony chilled shot is near 0% antimony.

[leadman]

I have used reclaimed shot for the arsenic content as low as #1 shot to #20 of lead, along with antimony from pure or superhard alloy. It does not take very much shot to make the alloy heat treatable.

[Phoenix]

Sounds like shot is the answer. Would be nice if someone made arsenic lead though. it is made. Just no source I can find in the US

[Matt_G]

You do NOT need Arsenic in your lead in order for it to heat treat!
You MUST have Antimony in it in order for it to heat treat but not Arsenic.

What As does for you is act as a catalyst, allowing a lead alloy containing Sb to attain a higher BHN than the Sb content would otherwise attain.

In the NRA publication Cast Bullets there is a great article by Dennis Marshall titled "Stronger Bullets with Less Alloying".
In that article he states: "...metallurgists have found that very small additions of arsenic, from 0.05% to 0.5% enhance the hardenability of antimony alloys by a quite disproportionate amount - even though arsenic alone is of little value for strengthening lead."

Too illustrate this point, he heat treated two similar alloys @ 462 F for 2 hours.
One with basically no arsenic and 4.4% Sb; the other with 5% Sb, 0.5% Sn and 0.17% As.

After three days the alloy without arsenic tested at 24.3.
The one with arsenic tested at 37.2.
That increase can't be attributed to just a 0.6% increase in the Sb content.
More importantly though is that without any arsenic the antimonial alloy did heat treat to 24.3.

[Boyscout]

Rotometals sells reclaimed shot. Might be a good source for arsenic.

[Phoenix]

You do NOT need Arsenic in your lead in order for it to heat treat!
You MUST have Antimony in it in order for it to heat treat but not Arsenic.


There is alot of conflicting information on this subject. My understanding is the arsenic changes the structure and also stabilizes it. I know it will harden some without As. But If you want to maximize hardness with minimal Antimony and slow the natural time softening you need As.

Here is an example of the conflicting information:

The essential metals for heat treating are lead, antimony and arsenic. Tin is optional; although it may aid in an effort to cast more perfect bullets and contribute to ductility. To obtain maximum hardness, a minimum of one to two percent antimony is required in addition to a trace of arsenic. Arsenic is the catalyst. Heat-treating cannot work without it, regardless of the amount of antimony or other trace elements present. Webmaster Addendum: The above quote on arsenic from HandLoader "appears" to be in error and should read: Arsenic is the catalyst to a greatly enhanced ability to heat treat. 4% antimony has a much better hardening/time curve than 2% alloy.

Webmaster Addendum: In the above two references from HandLoader the conditions of the testing is not known but I cannot help but wonder if both conclusions were drawn from heat treating non-arsenical alloys. It appears that non-arsenical alloys such as linotype and Lyman # 2 alloys can be heat treated because of their antimony content. Adding a trace (1/4 of 1% to 1/2%) of arsenic in the alloy dramatically increases the hardness that can be achieved by heat treating. The percentage of antimony effects the hardening/time curve. 2% antimony will take longer to achieve final hardness than 4% or 6% antimony alloy.

From other reading aside from arsenic increasing the potential hardness it also stabilizes the hardness causing it to take Allot longer to lost the hardness gained from heat treating.

The bottom line is you do need As unless you want to put quite a bit more antimony in the alloy than you would otherwise need to attain the same hardness. The cost factor makes it the only logical choice.

[Phoenix]

Rotometals sells reclaimed shot. Might be a good source for arsenic.

I thought the same thing. The issue is there is some 'arsenic free' shot out there and the price of the reclaimed shot is almost the same as new Lawrence shot which has fairly high arsenic content per the manufacturer. A little goes a long way.

Thanks for the suggestion.

[Linstrum]

Like Felix mentioned, I always use lead shot as my source of arsenic. As far as just plain hardening up boolit alloy, I use copper. Babbit automotive engine type bearing alloy is a good source of dissolved copper since it is extremely difficult to get copper metal dissolved into lead in a home workshop situation. I've done it many times using Harris 0 (Harris zero) phos-copper brazing alloy, but the lead alloy has to be heated up to 1350ºF, which is red hot. Heating lead that hot generates large amounts of highly toxic lead vapor, so it has to be done outside standing upwind.

rl 1,175

[Bert2368]

I have a few pounds of white Arsenic (Arsenic tri oxide, As2O3). Used to be use in some pyrotechnic compositions, banned by CPSC now.

I wouldn't dare try to add it to a melt, the production of arsine gas is one of the many reasons not to try to use battery Lead... But I do wonder how the arsenical Lead used industrially by battery, shot and wheel weight manufacturers is produced. Anyone know any engineering or metallurgical referances on this?

(edit)

http://books.google.com/books?id=rYw0AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA371&lpg=PA371&dq=how+to+alloy+lead+and+arsenic&source=bl&ots=WJYueFkMe8&sig=8lmjhf0xjMxiEs-73gTb9OZTXnk&hl=en&sa=X&ei=CBY0UZCeK6T40gHul4H4DA&ved=0CC8Q6AEwATgU

In the 1800's, men were MEN and Arsenic was just another industrial metal...

[357maximum]

Linstrum........that is the main reason several of us add the copper wire or copper phos rod to a tin rich babbit that has minimal lead....it just plain works better, but it is still done outside and I stand upwind.

I used to shoot alot of skeet and trap and have enough arsenic sweetener in the form of little round shot for the rest of my life....I find no better way to add arsenic than Lawrence magnum hard shot, luckily I hoarded alot of it when it was $13 per bag...thought I would need it for trap/skeet...but I found a better use for it. :lol:

[Krh1326]

Strictly thinking outside of the box, and only offering a hypothesis:

If one were intent on adding arsenic to an alloy…. Could one flux, with say, sawdust from treated green wood?
Could be fluxing and adding an unknown amount of arsenic.

I would be really careful with the fumes, as cautioned in this, and other posts.

[dondiego]

That is a 9 year old thread! The easiest way to get arsenic is to add magnum shot to your melt. I doubt that there would be enough arsenic in treated wood to help.

[Krh1326]

That is a 9 year old thread! The easiest way to get arsenic is to add magnum shot to your melt. I doubt that there would be enough arsenic in treated wood to help.

LMAO…. Time for new glasses.

[dondiego]

LMAO…. Time for new glasses.

Not a problem. You're question is still relevant.

[kilowatt]

I had apparent success dissolving metallic arsenic (which is available through some niche sources geared toward element collecting) directly into a melt under a cover flux of eutectic anhydrous zinc chloride and potassium chloride which melts at 450°F (and lower with normal impurities). This was a lead/bismuth/antimony alloy which I am using to cast custom bullets in 3d printed molds for its lower melting point (casting at 450°F), but I would think a lead melt would work the same. I did the dissolving at about 650°F anyway. I do not have a good way of knowing whether the arsenic dissolved completely into the metal or whether any dissolved into this molten salt flux, but I would expect most of it to end up in the metal. The chemistry of it is a bit different from true metals so it's hard to say. I did not get obvious gains in final hardness but I do not know if this is due to the high bismuth content (basically 50%) or slow cooling rate or any other variables. My alloy is already harder than most typical bullet alloys.

Some words on safety about this: I did not get any apparent arsine fumes using this method with the cover flux, but that was just my personal experience, and the permissible exposure limit of arsine is said to be 10x lower than the odor threshold. If you can smell it you are likely to experience symptoms. I used strong ventilation needless to say. To attempt this direct alloying without a true cover flux would be ill advised (I did it once, foolishly, and did get obvious arsine fumes, thankfully outdoors on a windy day), and even with the flux it is questionable how good of an idea this is. It is definitely something to do at your own risk and with strong ventilation or outdoors.

A word about using anhydrous zinc chloride/potassium chloride flux: This material is very hygroscopic (picks up moisture from the air) and once it has absorbed moisture, it will release hydrochloric acid on heating before it will let go of that water content. When initially preparing it from raw materials it must be done outdoors or under a hood for the fumes. Once it is mixed and kept perfectly dry it can be used easily with absolutely no fumes. If it's allowed to sit for a long time in a steel melting pot it will pick up moisture and cause rust, and can't be reheated without again releasing hydrochloric acid vapors. I always remove as much of this flux as possible from my melting pot when I am done and wash the residue out with water after it has cooled. It is very inconvenient to deal with, but it does result in the cleanest melt you can get.

Edit: adding 0.15% As with this method inverted the meniscus in my melting pot.

[fredj338]

I had apparent success dissolving metallic arsenic (which is available through some niche sources geared toward element collecting) directly into a melt under a cover flux of eutectic anhydrous zinc chloride and potassium chloride which melts at 450°F (and lower with normal impurities). This was a lead/bismuth/antimony alloy which I am using to cast custom bullets in 3d printed molds for its lower melting point (casting at 450°F), but I would think a lead melt would work the same. I did the dissolving at about 650°F anyway. I do not have a good way of knowing whether the arsenic dissolved completely into the metal or whether any dissolved into this molten salt flux, but I would expect most of it to end up in the metal. The chemistry of it is a bit different from true metals so it's hard to say. I did not get obvious gains in final hardness but I do not know if this is due to the high bismuth content (basically 50%) or slow cooling rate or any other variables. My alloy is already harder than most typical bullet alloys.

Some words on safety about this: I did not get any apparent arsine fumes using this method with the cover flux, but that was just my personal experience, and the permissible exposure limit of arsine is said to be 10x lower than the odor threshold. If you can smell it you are likely to experience symptoms. I used strong ventilation needless to say. To attempt this direct alloying without a true cover flux would be ill advised (I did it once, foolishly, and did get obvious arsine fumes, thankfully outdoors on a windy day), and even with the flux it is questionable how good of an idea this is. It is definitely something to do at your own risk and with strong ventilation or outdoors.

A word about using anhydrous zinc chloride/potassium chloride flux: This material is very hygroscopic (picks up moisture from the air) and once it has absorbed moisture, it will release hydrochloric acid on heating before it will let go of that water content. When initially preparing it from raw materials it must be done outdoors or under a hood for the fumes. Once it is mixed and kept perfectly dry it can be used easily with absolutely no fumes. If it's allowed to sit for a long time in a steel melting pot it will pick up moisture and cause rust, and can't be reheated without again releasing hydrochloric acid vapors. I always remove as much of this flux as possible from my melting pot when I am done and wash the residue out with water after it has cooled. It is very inconvenient to deal with, but it does result in the cleanest melt you can get.

Edit: adding 0.15% As with this method inverted the meniscus in my melting pot.

This is why question. Far easier to add an alloy that already has arsenic in it. Just because you can doesnt mean you should.

[poppy42]

Does any OTC rat poison still have arsenic in it?
No they quit putting arsenic in rat poison years ago. Now it’s nothing more than a blood thinner similar to what you would take if you had a high risk of stroke. Arsenic based rat poisons have too many potential side effects to the surrounding areas and environment.

[GlocksareGood]

Trade for some COWWs?