What the heck izzit??

[Infidel]

I stopped at a gunstore the other day and was checking out their inventory. The store owner asked me if I might know what he had. He was supposed to be giving a customer an estimate on an estate.
He presented me with an old bolt action, single shot, 70 cal. (yes, I did say 70 cal.) Anshutz style rifle. The rifling in the barrel was almost pristine. The thing that really jumped out was the twist rate. It was really tight for such a large caliber. Very nice european walnut stock, with a cheek rest. Has the fancy trigger-guard. The only marking on the rifle was on top of the receiver. There was a "3" on it. The receiver top was stippled. He said he had asked everyone he knew and came up blank. I'm guessing that it was probably made somewhere in the ballpark of 1880-1900. Definitely not military. Whadaheckizzit?
I will try to post a picture of it as soon as I get it off of this friggin' new windows phone. I ain't impressed!

[wch]

When you do get some good pictures you might consider asking your question at the single shot forum: www.assra.com
If those folks don't know "what the heck it is" then you might ask at the NRA museum.

[Infidel]

6234762348

Ok. Sorry about the delay. Here is what this rifle looks like. Any help would be appreciated.

[Bullshop]

It looks like something custom built on a 71 Mauser.

[cloakndagger]

Mauser? or Mosin?, to me the bolt structure more resembles a mosin nagant than a mauser, that said the rifle brarely resembles anything. Unique piece, that.......:?

[khmer6]

That's a fancy looking stock and trigger guard. If it was an izzy it's short for a factory in Russia. The bolt seems short for something like a 70 caliber. I thought anything over a 50 cal was considered an any other weapon by atf. Which is why some desert eagles had a larger bore and they had to make it smaller.

[Bullshop]

Styling looks more German than Russian. What self respecting German would build on a Mosin?

[Infidel]

When I first saw it, it put me in mind of a Mosin, with the bolt and then the octagonal receiver. The octagon barrel had to have been 1.25" across. Probably weighs 20 lbs. The short cartridge length, with the large bore is also puzzling. This thing had to shoot a monster heavy bullet at slow fps. Rainbow trajectory. I know!!! It's a mortar!
The case length has to be 2" maybe 2.5". It can't hold but 100 to 110 grn. of black powder. I used to shoot my .58 with that much. I just can't figure out what it was used for. To slow for big game. I'm cornfused.
As to the ATF, these are antique black powder arms. The 50 cal. stipulations don't apply. Otherwise they'd have to confiscate all the Revolutionary War and Civil War relics and repros.

[Infidel]

Yeah, I thought Swiss, German, Austrian. They built stuff that looked like it. I wish my pix were better.

[khmer6]

That's what I thought it might be a black powder gun considering the large bore

[Roundball]

I have seen a rifle such at this before. These arms, if I recall correctly, were used in matches in Germany where the target was a large wooden bird provided by the previous years winner. The contestant who broke off the largest part of the wooden target was the winner. The cartridge was not made for long distance shooting hence the short single shot action. Might do well to look for German proofs unless this rifle predated the proof laws.

[Mike Brooks]

I thought anything over a 50 cal was considered an any other weapon by atf.
Explain the .577, .600 &.700 nitro?

[John Taylor]

Might pore a chamber cast. Length of chamber sounds close to a 70-150 Winchester which is based on a 12 gauge brass shotgun shell. More than likely it is a custom chamber

[Ecramer]

I have seen a rifle such at this before. These arms, if I recall correctly, were used in matches in Germany where the target was a large wooden bird provided by the previous years winner. The contestant who broke off the largest part of the wooden target was the winner. The cartridge was not made for long distance shooting hence the short single shot action. Might do well to look for German proofs unless this rifle predated the proof laws.

I believe you have the explanation. I also think it is based on the 71 Mauser action (another link to Germany). Disassembled, the Mauser and the Mosin look a good deal alike. I'd like to see the other side of the bold. Does it have the disassembly screw that is on a 71 Mauser?

[I'll Make Mine]

That's not a Mosin bolt -- I've got a Mosin and I've had the bolt out and apart many times; the Mosin has the handle attached to a shortish lug, rather than a long lug like that bolt, and it has a separable bolt head with the locking lugs machined on. Also, the Mosin was never made as a single shot; if that were a Mosin action, it'd still have the magazine well in the bottom of the receiver even if the lower magazine parts had been deleted.

[cloakndagger]

Either way, I WANNA SEE IT SHOOT! Who provides the bird lol

[Chicken Thief]

The action is not a Mauser 71!
A 71 is 9" long and only okta on the first 2½"
And they have to hollow that sucker out something awfull to get a cal. 12 shell in there!
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Til%20andre/R0011271_zpsa4345178.jpg

[missionary5155]

Greetings
Maybe should not overlook one of those elephant or hippo cartriges. Sure would be a good tool for some of the big crocs that seem to turn up out on the Amazon tributaries.
Mike in Peru

[leadman]

It still could be a Mauser action as he made several rifles prior to the '71 that were not successful. IIRC these were of a larger caliber than the 71.
Or it could be a totally gunsmith built gun.

[pietro]

It looks almost exactly like this 9.5 cal German Schuetzen Rifle.

https://www.proxibid.com/asp/LotDetail.asp?ahid=3777&aid=34747&lid=9595012


.

[mdevlin53]

In the late 1800 and into the early 1900 there were any number of single shot rifles made in this design. I have seen them refered to as guild rifles by some writers. I have several. the ones i have range in caliber from 32-20,30-30,8.15x46r,9.5x47r, and 9.3x62r. they were made by several manufacturers including Ketner and Husqvarna. some were quite plain and some have fancy engraving and fancy triggerguards. They were often called stalking rifles and used for boar deer and even moose. I have examples with and without safties.
They are made after the 1871 pattern Mauser but depending on caliber the bolt diameter can be smaller or larger than the original design. In some cases the design wass after the French Gras rifle and i have seen examples of this in 16 ga, as well as rifle calibers. The shotguns were called Foragers.

These rifles are a small niche in rifle design. they were made in the time where black powder was being overtaken by smokeless. There are several guys that i talk with in this board and others that collect these often well made rifles. They are fun to get shooting but sometimes it takes a bit of searching for components and work to form brass if there is none to be had.
62845

[khmer6]

Finally a real answer!

[mdevlin53]

It would be difficult to determine the cartridge the rifle chambers with out a cast but i did see one that is about the right size. 17.5x29 Snider is listed but you won't find much more than case dimentions. look at the link and scroll way down to the bottom.
http://members.shaw.ca/cstein0/metric.htm

[seekersoftheredmist]

is it still for sale? if so how much?

[ratboy]

:holysheep

i have one of those and i have been trying to figure out what it is for a while.
my last attempt at a chamber cast and search of the cartridges of the world proved fruitless.
i was able to figure out it is BP and german but that was about it.
[smilie=w:


In the late 1800 and into the early 1900 there were any number of single shot rifles made in this design. I have seen them refered to as guild rifles by some writers. I have several. the ones i have range in caliber from 32-20,30-30,8.15x46r,9.5x47r, and 9.3x62r. they were made by several manufacturers including Ketner and Husqvarna. some were quite plain and some have fancy engraving and fancy triggerguards. They were often called stalking rifles and used for boar deer and even moose. I have examples with and without safties.
They are made after the 1871 pattern Mauser but depending on caliber the bolt diameter can be smaller or larger than the original design. In some cases the design wass after the French Gras rifle and i have seen examples of this in 16 ga, as well as rifle calibers. The shotguns were called Foragers.

These rifles are a small niche in rifle design. they were made in the time where black powder was being overtaken by smokeless. There are several guys that i talk with in this board and others that collect these often well made rifles. They are fun to get shooting but sometimes it takes a bit of searching for components and work to form brass if there is none to be had.
62845

[mdevlin53]

In the picture above the center rifle does not match any listed caliber. I call it my 44-57. I use a 44 caliber boolit in a cut down 43 mauser case. Fire formed and loaded with the boolit thumb seated over the powder. It takes a full case and is a hoot to shoot.

[mdevlin53]

Ratboy
I am always in the market for these rifles if you ever decide you have had enough of trying to figure out what to load that rifle with drop me a line.
Michael

[Roundball]

Is there such a cartridge as 15x46mm.

[mdevlin53]

I see a couple that are close. 15x40 and 15x49r. See the link for some additionasl info.
http://members.shaw.ca/cstein0/metric.htm

[kenyerian]

"Schuetzen rifles are typically built on single shot actions of one type or another, generally a Martini style, or falling block style action, but many later German made Schuetzen rifles were based on the Mauser model 1871 single shot bolt action rifle, such as the example pictured with this article. I am priviledged to be the current owner of this fine rifle, chambered for the now obsolete 9.5x47 Rimmed Schuetzen target rifle cartridge, which is a virtual ballistic twin to the popular American .38-55 cartridge. " http://www.vfgpa.org/schuetzen.html Very nice find.

[Roundball]

Forty or so years ago one of my mentors had one of these large bore single shot rifles in excellent condition. He had identified the rifle and use. Being in the gun business, he moved the rifle on. Later, he saw the gun at a gun show in Maryland. Somebody had brazed a 1903 sight onto the rifle. The story was that it was an elephant gun that was shot from a forked rest. Locally, at a recent gun show another one of these rifles turned up. It was a large bore bolt action rifle that weighted, as described, at about twenty pounds. Good luck on stalking with rifle of the weight and caliber

[mdevlin53]

A thing I did not mention before was that sometimes these rifles were called guild guns. An apprentice in a gun factory or shop would have to malke a rifle to become a master. some were trial peices and some were the "masterworks" obviously some of the smiths were much more tallented than others and some had better masters to learn from. Each smith would design and build his rifle to prove he had the skills to become a master himself. Such as the system was coupled with the fact that there were no Sammi standards at the time the smith might have made a rifle in a unique caliber that was never made again.
That is the challenge to getting some of these old guns shooting again.

[Sammler71]

Greatings from Germany!

The action is a Mauser 71/84 - that was the first repeating rifle invented in the german army. It was equipped with a tube magazin. You can identify it clearly by the slider on the left side of the action. As this rifles were only used for a few years (until 1888!) most of the rifles were sold and used to convert them into hunting rifles or target rifles. You find a lot of different calibers now with such rifles. Most of them are based on the the original cartridge but were shortened i.e. 11x47R.

[Scharfschuetze]

Vielen Dank Sammler71. I hoffe, dass wir dich hier wieder sehen. Als ich Polizist war, mein Hauptman hat solch ein Schuetzengewehr. Es war ein Kunstwerk.

Thanks Sammler71 (Collector71). I hope that we see you here again. When I was an LEO, my captain had a schuetzen rifle like these. It was a work of art.

Laetzten Monat, schoss ich in diesem Verein in der Naehe von Stuttgart.

Last month, I was shooting at this club near Stuttgart.

[Good Cheer]

It looks like a scaled up 9.5 because it IS a scaled up 9.5.

WOW!