Arisaka Buffalo Rifle

[hydraulic]

A friend of mine pulled into the driveway today all in a lather and says, "Come on and go with me. I've got to shoot a buffalo for the Indians". I got into the pickup and we drove out south of town where the local tribe keeps 25 or 30 head of buffalo. We met the keeper of the herd; one of the tribal members whose job it is to keep an eye on the critters and make sure they have feed and water. Seems there was a heifer that had something wrong with her eyes and had gone blind. None of the tribesmen have a rifle so they always call on my friend when they need one shot for a pow-wow or funeral or something. Anyway, I knew that you can't kill a buffalo with anything less than a 458 so I was surprised when the friend pulls his rifle out of the back seat. "You ain't gonna shoot that buffalo with that rifle are you?" Says I. "You watch me. I've shot dozens of 'em with it." He walked up to about 25 yds from the heifer, raised the rifle up and off hand let fly. The critter dropped like she had her legs cut out from under her. The rifle was a 99 Arisaka with the stock cut down. The remaining wood looked like he had been dragging it behind the tractor. It had been rechambered to .30-06. I asked where he had got it and he said back in the '50's he had traded a bushel of potatoes for it to old Frank Sherman who lived by himself in a chicken coop west of town on the river. Frank had been in WWII and had brought it back with him. They brought up a John Deere with a loader and hoisted the heifer up, cut her throat and loaded her onto a trailer. Off she went to be processed, another job performed by the friend. He figured she weighed about 700 lbs. Funny thing is, lots of guys around here don't think a .30-06 is enough gun for our 150 lb. Nebraska whitetails.

[kodiak1]

Isn't it funny how people get so out of touch with reality. Everything needs a cannon to kill it!! How in the h*ll did all them for fathers ever make it with out starving to death with Black Powder and Ball?
Better yet how did the Indians kill these animals for so many years with sharp rocks tied onto the end of a stick decorated with feathers?
No one ever takes the time to think of shot placement, THE MOST IMPORTANT FACTOR in any shot regardless of caliber.
Ken.

[carpetman]

hydraulic--surely you jest. A deer with a 30-06? No way. The guy at the gun counter told me a minimum of a .300 mag.

[blysmelter]

That buff was approx same size as a scandinavian moose. The most common caliber used for moose in Norway and Sweden is 6,5x55. The most debated topic on our internet forums is the question of 6,5x55 for big game hunting.
As long as one uses a good bullet, it is the shot placement that kills.

[Bret4207]

Huh? Common sense prevailing? Ridiculous!

Just picked up a really cheap sporterized Arisaka in 6.5x257 Robets. Actually has a fairly decent Bishop Mannlicher stock and a good recv'r sight that might be a Pacific. Gotta find some dies now. Weighs about 6 lbs and comes up sooooo smooth. I'm even getting the hang of the safety. Oughtta make a heck of a rainy day/tractor gun.

Now that I think on it, I seem to have a lot of rainy day/tractor guns. The cost of being a cheapskate I guess.

[Phil]

Hi Bret!

Please let me know what the groove diameter is if you slug it. All I have slugged are at least .268" with some going .270" and over. With the right bullet they shoot REALLY well though. Should be a keeper, glad it found a good home.

Cheers,

Phil

[9.3X62AL]

Blysmelter et al--

I've had the privilege of seeing the good work done by 6.5mm rifles over the past couple hunting seasons. Placed well, good bullets do fine work. I used 140 grain Nosler Partitions on my deer last year, and after seeing the good work done on a much larger deer by NVCurmudgeon in 2005 with Hornady 140's (#2630), I'm of the opinion that the NosPart might be "gilding the lily" for deer. Both bullets can do 1" or smaller five-shot groups in my Ruger 77R, and Bill's 260 Remington is at least that good, I believe. So neither of us have ammo alibis.

I honestly don't know where some of these uber-caliber notions get started--it sure isn't from field experience. Every deer I've taken in CA and MI could have been grassed with the 30-30. Some of them were, too--with one each by 357 and 44 Magnum revolvers just for novelty's sake. I keep in mind that the most productive deer gun I've ever been associated with--the 1897-vintage Win '73 I inherited in 44-40 WCF--has taken well over 100 deer, and at least 2 black bears that my grandmother saw herself. I doubt the factory 200 grain bullets were doing much over 1100 FPS from its 19" barrel. The first 35 years of its service life were active ones.

I have yet to see Kevlar or ceramic plates on any game animal I've dressed out--and the life sciences haven't noted any other genetic advances of significance over the past 125 years. I think that 44-40 needs another year afield--with castings.

[Bigscot]

Twenty some years ago when I was a freshman in college, two of my suite mates swore up and down that nothing less the .300 mag would kill a whitetail. And we're talking about the smaller SE deer. I presented the argument about the .30-.30 killing so many deer but it was like teaching a pig to dance.

Bigscot

[BD]

I've been hunting feral pigs with a .44 revolver a few times down here in SC and I've gotten some crap about the "Killing Power" I'm lacking. My standard response is tell them that every domestic hog I ever killed or saw killed was put down with a .22 rimfire. Virtually all of them were "one shot stops" as well.

I'm 52 now and I'll need to hunt for a few more years yet to kill as many deer legally as I killed for food in my younger days using a single shot .22 rifle. I'm not claiming that the .22 rimfire is an appropriate caliber for deer hunting, but if you can stalk up close, and you know something about the anatomy of your target, it will certainly do the job.
BD

[smokemjoe]

My brother has some very fine rifles, But hunts with a 7.7 Jap, cut down, scoped, very crudly work done on it, Shoots alot of game with it, Last year he sat it in the jeep and it went off. The bullet just missed the tranmission. Didnt think it loaded.

[blysmelter]

W.D.M Bell killed more than 1000 elephants using 6.5x54MS and 7x57.

[Bullshop]

My neibor here has a buffalo farm on two sections. They raise animals for commercial slaughter and also sell hunts, if you can call it that.
Anyway thier preferd load for culling is the 30/06 with Federal ammo loaded with the 165gn balistic tip. They make only neck shots because the processer downgrades the carcass if the toung is damaged from a head shot.
I asked why the balistic tip because it is so fragile. He said because he can mis the spine by a little bit and still drop them in thier tracks. He showed me a hanging skinned carcass that the bullet had missed the spine but there was a fist sized hole through just beside it. He says the BT blows up at just the right depth of penitration to do a good job and not over penitrate. Over penitration is always a concern for him as they cull animals from amoung the herd.
BIC/BS

[Ricochet]

I have yet to see Kevlar or ceramic plates on any game animal I've dressed out--and the life sciences haven't noted any other genetic advances of significance over the past 125 years.
It's the crack and the meth. A hopped up young buck takes a lot of stopping. It's a jungle out there. Better make sure you take enough gun.

[Larry Gibson]

I have yet to see Kevlar or ceramic plates on any game animal I've dressed out--and the life sciences haven't noted any other genetic advances of significance over the past 125 years. I think that 44-40 needs another year afield--with castings.

“Elementary my dear Watson”; the ones PETA has issued body armor to don't get "dressed out"! Just kidding but it isn't it crazy how many really think we must have magnums to kill deer. Guess those of us who use "regular" cartridges just aren't finding the up-armored modeled deer.

Larry Gibson

[Bret4207]

Hi Bret!

Please let me know what the groove diameter is if you slug it. All I have slugged are at least .268" with some going .270" and over. With the right bullet they shoot REALLY well though. Should be a keeper, glad it found a good home.

Cheers,

Phil

Phil, I'll let you know if I ever get it home and measured.

[9.3X62AL]

It's the crack and the meth. A hopped up young buck takes a lot of stopping. It's a jungle out there. Better make sure you take enough gun.

Yeah, something belt-fed......too funny!

Deer DO love marijuana. Several growers we've "spoken with" :-) complain bitterly about the crop damage done by the critters on grow sites, and they get munchies too--so they eat more of the weed. It's not unusual to see a deer carcass or two around the larger grow sites, with LOTS of deer sign all over the surrounding area. Mule Deer Gone Bad--FILM AT 11!!

Bret et al--Hornady makes (or made) some limited production variants of their 160 grain round-nose j-word at .266" to fit the 6.5 x 54 M/S bores, which often run a little wide (like in my now-departed M-1903). These did tighten groups up a little, but full-stock Mannlicher Schoenauers in my 2-gun experience are long on style and a little short on accuracy. I've always thought that the Hornady 160 RN at 2100 FPS or so would be a near-perfect deer harvester for woods or brush hunting.

[hydraulic]

You guys mentioning bullets reminds me of Kenny's (I'll call him Kenny because that's his name) ammo supply. The round he fired was a factory RP, don't know what kind of bullet it was, but his ammo box contained seven rounds. Five were reloaded TW 54 and SL 54 blanks he had recovered from VFW funerals and the other two were WW cases reloaded with two different soft point bullets. He hadn't done any reloading for the last 20 years and these were what he had left. He couldn't remember what powder he used and I don't think he has any of his tools anymore. There were four more factory RPs in the magazine so I'm guessing there is a partial box somewhere in the truck. I'm trying to talk him into scuttling the reloads.

[Lloyd Smale]

got lambasted on another forum recently for admitting that probably a truck load of venison has been harvested at our camp with 30 carbines 3220s and .223s. Guess they forgot to issue them kevlar up here.

[Bret4207]

25/20,32/20, 38/40, 22 Savage Hi Power, 25/35, 30 Carbine. 22 mag, 45 ACP, 25 Stevens Long, 41 Swiss- They've all worked. Thing is, a lot of those old guys got up with in feet of their deer rather than banging away at "400 yards". They used to call it "HUNTING".

[hivoltfl]

I have a friend that owns a BAR Safari grade 06 Belguim made, last year while hunting (due to his failure to clean his firearms - EVER) he had a misfire at a good 12 point buck in south GA. by the time he gets the rifle ready to fire the deer is moving through the brush trying to vacate the area, he takes the shot through a hole in the brush at a fast moving target and gutshoots the deer, we hunted that wounded animal for two days and never found him, NOW I can buy the Browning at a fair price because Ol Sport went out and bought a 338 win mag to hunt with so he will stop loosing deer, Nope he will not listen either, not about cleaning his rifles or shot placement or letting one walk instead of taking a bad shot, Did I call this guy a friend? Oh Well, Feces does occur.

Rick

[Phil]

I have heard from more than one source that the 22 Long Rifle has killed more deer than any other cartridge. Seems that its the ideal poaching cartridge.

I agree with Bret, if you can't get closer than a hundred yards to a deer please don't call it hunting, its just killing.

I used to hunt deer with a revolver and many times I got well within rock throwing distance. Played with a big doe in a really wild fence row one time. I'd go through a hole on one side and she'd go through another hole to the other side. Always within about 25 yards. We did this for about 20 minutes and finally we were face to face just looking at each other and I just clapped my hands. She took off like a rocket. I was having so much fun with her I'd have never shot her. Hunting to me is more about being out in the woods than killing anything "just because I can".

Cheers,

Phil

[montana_charlie]

As the single nation on Earth whose population has a God-given right to personal firearms, with a Constitution to back it up, it's amazing how much ignorance exists about guns and their accessories.

Any of us, gun owners and non-owners, can fall into the 'old wive's tale' trap...something which has been considered as fact for many years, but turns out to be false. But the actual misconceptions about firearms are (it seems) of two primary types.

The non-gunner (the person who admittedly will not go near one) gets much of his information from films. They tell him that a firearm of any caliber, fired at most any target, regardless of range, is likely to deliver an instant kill.

Bam, Bam! No surprise that two beefy gangbangers can be killed outright with two quick shots from a .25 auto.

The person who takes the other tack...the one who believes that the .300 Magnum is the lightest reasonable caliber for whitetail...is a gun 'afficionado' who takes pride in his deep understanding of the gun world.

If the 30.06 is too puny for 150 lb. whitetail, how did it do so well on 200 lb. Germans?

Maybe I shouldn't be astounded. We also have a God-given right to speech...and there are many who have no idea what they are talking about.
CM

[floodgate]

An old friend of mine, part Indian, now long gone, used to tell his best hunting tale. Was out after deer with his bow - after a week of laying off meat to avoid any "carnivore scent"- he worked an area of ridges and valleys. Spotted an old, barren doe perched on a ridgetop as lookout for the herd. Not a good candidate for the freezer, so he decided to see just how close he could sneak through the chapparal. Spent an hour or so worming his way through the brush, moving when she looked the other way, freezing when she looked towards him. Finally, got so close he could almost touch her, reached out with his bow and goosed her with the tip. She went six feet straight up with a scream you could hear a mile, and hit the ground at full gallop. He used to laugh himself silly telling the story. I sure miss Will!

THAT, gentlemen, is HUNTING!!

floodgate

[jonk]

The bottom line is that the 30-06 is plenty powerful for any game in North America, except Grizzly Bears and Kodiaks. Even those would probably- probably- fall with one well placed shot with a good bullet, but it's a case of better safe than....dead. I'm not surprised that your buddy could dispatch a blind buffalo at 25 y with one.

[KCSO]

Ah! the Sherman brothers, I remember them well. Herb Thompson took me up to meet them many years ago.

It has always surprised me that some of the same gun writers who need a 300 remchester manglum for prarie dogs will then go hunt deer with a 44 mag in a pistol. Sooner or later someone wil figure out it's not the size of the hole it's where you put the hole. That same Herb Thompson used a 222 for deer and thought it was a darn fine gun. On paper a 54 round ball has less oomph than a 30-30, but when the hunters came back from bear hunt last year they all claimed the 54 RB gun killed bear BETTER than a 300 mag. The RB man fired two shots for two bear and both dropped in their tracks, one head shot one heart shot. I disected a Buff that took a 50 rb backed with 80 grains of FFg and the ball went in and out side to side. What more do you need. Close to 100 yards or less and put the ball in the right place.

[Drifter]

I'm 58 years old and have hunted whitetail deer since my teen years although I haven't the last 5 or 6 years. The biggest buck I ever killed was with a 220 Swift. The big buck did run about 50 yards after a heart shot but the little bullet did the job. Since that time I started using a 30-06 and it'll put 'um down on the spot. The main thing is to put the shot in the right place, if I couldn't get a good shot on a deer I'd pass it up and wait for the next one and to this day I've never lost a deer that I'd shot.
Drifter

[Wayne Smith]

W.D.M Bell killed more than 1000 elephants using 6.5x54MS and 7x57.

Until one of them got him! Just to add the ending, you kno. He only went to the 7x57 because the 6.5 bullets wouldn't hold together.

Several have said it already without using the words. It's bullet placement and terminal ballistics both that need to be considered. Those 300Mag bullets that punch through like solids at 70 yds. won't be as effective as the round ball even if the bullet placement is the same.

[EMC45]

Well apparently the 30-30 isn't enough nor is the .308. The general consensus in my area is 7MM Mag or 300 Win Mag is neccessary for the 80 lb whitetails we have here. I have an old supervisor who was amazed by one of our friends shooting an iron sighted bp rifle and got 2 touching at 50 yds! He couldn't believe it. It's not only the caliber issue it is also the fact a lot of folks don't know their gear very well. They shoot a few rounds in Oct. , hunt with it, then put it up. Some folks don't even know what iron sights are!

[tom barthel]

It depends on the shooter more than the caliber. I have SEEN a small white tail deer run away with half a heart. It got about 100 yards. The bullet was a 150 grain 30 caliber spire point. The bullet went through the right lung, through the heart and changed direction about mid way through the left lung and ended up in his neck just ahead of the shoulder. The same shot usually drops them on the spot. If I could, I wouldn't hesitate to use a .30-06 or .308 or .30-30 on anything that walks, crawls, slithers,or flies. Dead is dead. The best rule is don't miss. Practice with what you shoot. That's any legal caliber or even a rock tied to the end of a stick. A good shot is a good shot. Some animals just don't want to die. They may live longer by just not giving up.

[AZ-Stew]

What amazes me is that the Japanese had the need for a Buffalo rifle.

I thought Bison were only found in North America.

Who knew?

Regards,

Stew

[1Shirt]

My hunting partner and I who at the time were Alaska residents took our Kodiaks with 30-06 and 375 H&H respectivly. His at probably 80 yds, one shot, neck with 200 gr. Speer, dropped in it's track stone dead. I shot mine at 20+/- with a 300gr. Hor Rn in the 375 head on, chest shot (I was sitting), and no it wasn't a charge. Blt. went full lengthof bear, knocked it backwards, and it got up and ran about 200 yds befor it dropped into a small stream. Fortunately it was on an angle from where I shot. The blt. was lodged at the base of the tail and weighed about 170 gr. and there were fragments that probably ewnt about 30-35 gr. My partners shot placement was excellent and the results showed it. Both were one shot kills, but I would have far rathered have not had mine get up and run. I shot two boo on that hunt as well with the 375 on the run. One never flinched at the shot, (probably about 125 yds), but dropped after about 150 yds on a dead run.
Lungs full of blood. 37 Cal in and 37 cal out, no expansion of the blt. My bottom line to all of this is like a lot of others have said, needs to be proper shot placement, and then it really helps to have the proper blt.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[Bullshop]

AZ-Stew Maybe they were just planing for the future.
BIC/BS

[Bullshop]

Before my neibor started shooting with the 06 culling from the comfort of thier pu they would run them down a loading shute so they had to go single file. The shooter would stand on the rails of the shute and shoot at a steep downward angleas they came toward him. They tried a number of handgun cals and loads but the one that worked the best was the 45 acp with gi ball ammo. It would penitrate the forhead to the brain but not any farther. Further penitration could damage the toung and down grade the carcase.
BIC/BS

[waksupi]

Stew, Asiatic buffalo are some big nasty critters!

[AZ-Stew]

If you're talking about the animal the Philipinos call Carabou (pronounced cara-bow, and that's bow as in bow-wow, not bow as in bow and arrow), yeah they're like a big ox. I was jesting about them not having much use for a North American Bison rifle. Do the Japanese have Asian buffs?

Regards,

Stew

[Bret4207]

Given the right circumstances any bullet/round can fail. I believe a lot of it isn't so much bullet/boolit/broadhead failure as it is the particular animal getting a good adrenilin rush and carrying on for 50-200 yards. Of course a gutshot animal wil g for days. Shot placement is key.

[BruceB]

This thread has given me some seriously mixed reactions.

Let it be known that I am a great and devoted fan of the .30-06 AS LOADED BY MYSELF. I say that because although I've taken in excess of 150 animals with my old M700LH, I have never fired a factory round from the old rifle at a critter. When hunting time came, I loaded Nosler Partitions, in 165 or 180 flavor for caribou (the vast bulk of my prey) and the 200 Partition for moose. That 200 bullet was traveling at a consistent 2750 fps from the 22" barrel, and was amazingly effective right out to 250 yards or more.

I lost no animals hit with the '06. I don't even recall any getting out of sight, but some of that is due to the open nature of the country we mostly hunted. However, there were some very close-range heavy-bush encounters as well, and again, nothing got out of sight.

I would be rahther content to hunt almost anything in North America with my '06 and MY ammunition. For the hardest tasks, these days I would load the Barnes TSX in a heavy weight for the caliber....like those 200 NPs above. A TSX of 200 grains is very likely to STILL weigh close to 200 grains after it stops moving in the animal. The bullet's integrity means that TODAY's .30-06 is a better and more-capable cartridge than yesterday's .30-06. Placement is just as critical, but the bullets are tougher, more reliable in function, and I can logically expect a recovered 200 .30-caliber TSX to weigh a good bit MORE than the recovered weight of the 210 and 225 Partitions we used in our .338s on moose years ago.

However....this thread started with bison. As one who has had quite a bit of experience in shooting absolutely free-ranging bison (on thousands upon thousands of square miles of HEAVY BUSH around Wood Buffalo National Park) I can tell you that for realistic hunting situations, and for my particular hunting preferences, deer rifles and even some moderate-caliber magnums are much less than great for bison. I want any animal I shoot to be on the ground NOW, not after I take a break and follow-up later. My bison rifles, adopted AFTER watching the lack of performance of '06s, 7mm mags, and similar rounds fired into bison, came down to African-style cartridges.

For both practical reasons (not wanting a bison to escape into trackless bush, where wounded ones can travel for miles) and personal reasons (wanting a clean kill NOW), I adopted the .404 Jeffery and its 400-grain bullets, and it was joined by my Ruger .416 Rigby when that cartridge was introduced in the #1 Rifle. For most intents, the effects of the two rounds are just about identical, when the .404 is loaded to 400@2400+. I was never disappointed in my cartridge choice. A number of bison were killed right in the tracks in which they stood, and NO mistake about it. The cartridges will break big bones, and by preference, I aim to take out one of the shoulders, either near or off-side. The total collapse of an animal that large when it loses its support structure is something to see! Penetration in excess of five feet is not unusual, and reaching the off-side shoulder is easy.

I'm well aware of the difference in hunting wild bison on unlimited range with heavy cover, compared to the sort of shooting which started this thread. I just don't want anyone to labor under the erroneous idea that killing big animals is a task to be taken lightly, or that our pet deer rifles can be used with impunity. There may be a price to pay. The animals deserve due consideration, and I do not espouse this "shoot 'im and wait 20 minutes to follow-up" tactic.

Slaughterhouse-condition killing is yet another thing, and different tools are usable.

Let me add that I saw a friend shoot a badly-wounded big bull squarely in the forehead FOUR TIMES with 220-grain .30-06 factory loads, without effect except a bit of buckling of his forelegs on each shot. Range was about 30 feet. The fifth shot, from the side of his head, ended the affair instantly. The forehead plate of the skull showed only four small grooves where the bullets had turned on the bone and exited. The hide was a good three inches thick, covered with about six inches of densely-matted hair, and the skull plate was also very thick. I'd wager those 220s were quite unstable when they arrived at the bone layer.

...and now those "buffalo guns" are cast bullet rifles, par excellence!

[Bullshop]

BB
I think you have the largest bison on the continent in the Yukon. I think they are woodland bison and are larger than the plains bison down south.
None the less both are big and your advice is sound and I agree whole heartedly.
Now this brings us to our choice of 40 cals. I have been working on a B-78 Browning in 405 Win for some time now. The load I have setteled on is pushing a 410gn/416 NEI RNDDGC at just over 2000 fps. It shoots splendidly and aught to make a most excellent buff basher. But alas I drew not a tag for buff but did draw an extra moose tag. I was well pleased with this until by chance in trade a Ruger #1 in 416 Rem came my way. With this I have developed a load with the same boolit that shoots very well at 2350 fps.
I did run into some dificulty when moving out of the relm of the 405 and up to the 416 with ACWW. Where the 405 shot ACWW splendedly and gives good expansion at 100 yards the 416 would not comply. With quenched WW the 416 will group well but with ACWW at the 2350 fps velocity it behaves more like a bucking bronk throwing shots in all directions. While the quenched boolits would penitrate through two 18" lengths of fire killed black spruce they were undamaged when recoverd. The solution was from you and your notes on hard cast soft nose and thank you. The soft nose boolits will not get the penitration of the QWW's as they stop in the last couple inches of the first wood block but man what a shreaded mess they leave in thier wake. With the 416 I found that about 25% soft nose is about right and the expansion will continue a bit into the QWW shank. With the lower velocity of the 405 I found about a 60/40 hard/soft works very well. In some cases these act much like a Nosler partition in that the soft nose is blown away leaving a noticable shreaded cavity in the media but the shank holds as a solid and pushes on. Thanks for your comments, your ideas, and general input on what has been a fun learning experiance.
BIC/BS

[hydraulic]

Bruce B: I just picked up the Midway catalog and they list the 404 Jeffery 400 gr Banded Solid FN at $50.99 for 50 bullets. HOlY COW!

[BruceB]

Dan, good evening.

We were actually hunting Wood Bison in the area between Wood Buffalo National Park and Great Slave Lake, in the Northwest Territories....some hundreds of miles east of the Yukon. I'm just quibbling, though, and ANY bison is a big beast. I think your Big Delta herd in Alaska is transplanted plains buffalo.

Your work with the cast softpoints is fascinating. When I was trying to develop a satisfactory casting technique, my hope was that a bullet could be cast that would indeed act like a Partition...at worst, lose the forward 1/3 after major expansion, and still have the back 2/3 to finish the penetration. From your description, it sounds like you have achieved this, at least to a large degree. Our loads are very similar, and even the .405 you mentioned is treading hard on the heels of a .404 factory load, which was 400 at 2150.

I agree with the proportions you specify for pure lead vs WW. I also appreciate your support in the matter of using BIG guns and bullets for BIG animals.

When I go to Alberta for elk and white-tail in '08, I'm strongly thinking about doing the hunt with cast softpoint bullets in the .404 and .416. Your research has just strengthened the likelihood of my doing that.

Thanks for your information!

[BruceB]

Hydraulic, sir;

Yep! Good bullets are indeed getting pricey these days, and I understand there's a 15% hike coming in September, too, for all our components and ammunition.

On the subject of solids, they should be avoided at all costs for normal hunting. In many jurisdictions they are illegal for hunting, and for good reason. They don't kill worth a darn. I've seen how lousy a job they do in my .404 on bison. A good, well-constructed expanding bullet is MUCH, MUCH better than any solid for any North American game animal.

Good solids are expensive to make, but so are good expanding bullets. I've come to favor Barnes' TSX design just lately, and even in the more-normal .338 diameter, fifty bullets cost about $40.00.

And people wonder why we nutty folks cast our own???? I'll pay the going rate for top-grade hunting bullets when I need them, but for "just shooting"....give me my cast boolits!