I ain't happy

[Taylor]

Rifle--H&R handi, 223, 24" heavy barrel with Weaver T36 scope.New barrel with about 300 rounds shot through it.
--Remington brass
--CCI small rifle primer
--25.5 grains Varget
--55 grain Speer soft point

Today at the range,sunny and about 40 degrees,light head wind.

Guy's I'm quite upset about how it shot,especially with a 200 yd bench rest next weekend.Obviously,it ain't ready.Now I am not the best shot and probably won't place in the high 3,but I don't won't to look bad doing it.

It was like everything was a flyer,no bullet would go were I wanted it too. 5" at 100 yds,and 10" or better at 200.They were either high or low.Right or left.Or a combination of each. I tried cleaning the barrel,removing the forearm.Made sure the scope was tight.I'm at a lose,don't know what to do.My first thought is the ammo,bullet too light? This load worked well in the bull barrel.As far as I know they have the same rate of twist.

[montana_charlie]

This load worked well in the bull barrel. As far as I know they have the same rate of twist.
Sounds like you need to do some verifying ...

[fouronesix]

Sounds like bad barrel or chamber or both. In 1993 or 4 had the chance to buy a new H&R SS in 22 Hornet heavy bbl for a good price. I insisted on shooting it first to see how it did. No exaggeration- 6-7+ inch random groups at 50 yards. That was the end of the "less expensive" single shot route for me.

[357maximum]

Sounds like you need to do some verifying ...


^^^^ what he said X2

I have owned and played with several of the older 12twist H&R/NEF guns and I have yet to see one that did not like that load with other makers 50-55 grain pills, even my superlightweight barrelled handi likes that load. You might have to try a heavier boolit if it is one of the newer models with the 9twist.

[NSP64]

Is it the first time you shot this gun with the new barrel?

[fouronesix]

Bullet too light or slightly mis-matched to twist shouldn't spew them around that bad. One possibility is a buggered crown. Another remote possibility is the scope went away somewhere between the last time is was shot on the previous mount and the current mounting. I'd maybe try one more combination. Try a 50, 52 or 53 gr flat base match bullet (one of the Berger bullets comes to mind) with a starting load of 4198 or 4895 and see what happens.

[Larry Gibson]

As mentioned, check to see if the twist rate on the new barrel is 9 or 12".

Larry Gibson

[Taylor]

According to greybeards it's a 1-9 twist,same as the other barrel I have.The scope I got for Christmas.I did not expect the barrel to do great.In the beginning it actually shot better the first 100 rounds.My thinking was after it got broken in, it would do better.It seems to have gotten worse.The primers are old,20 years or so.The bullets to are aged.As it is,I have no range time between now and the weekend.

I tend to believe it is my ammo.The first batch I shot was factory Remington 55gr,factory wolf 62gr,and military 5.56.I mostly wanted break in the barrel with these. I have ran 2 batches of 50 of my loads and well that started this post.I had already made up my mind to switch to Sierra 69 gr hpbt matchking,but they are kinda hard to find now.I did dig out my Lake City brass and get it ready.

I have what I have at this point,just have to live with it.

[John Boy]

Check your scope mounts to see if they are tight and then bore sight it again to verify POI @ 100yds

[Taylor]

John Boy,that was my first thought.I did that at the range yesterday.Also yesterday afternoon I centered the cross hairs,(don't you hate starting over when someone talks to you?).Then bore sighted again.That Weaver T36 ain't all that cheap,for me anyway,just the thought of it being screwed up ain't a good thing.

[BBarrett]

I hate to say, but have the same thing with the .243 barreled guns also. Not just one of them, but with every .243 that has came in for scope setting. Everything else had done just fine. Haven't had the .223 come in yet so can't say on that one.

[Taylor]

I think I found the issue.It would seem my rifle is older that I thought.I bought it new in '09,(I checked my receipt),it was made in '07.Barrel has a 1-12 twist.The new barrel has a 1-9 twist.I called H&R this morning.They confirmed all this,along with a suggestion to increase bullet weight.That was already in the plans,just have to wait on my back order.In the mean time,I will use the older barrel.

[357maximum]

I have run 40-55 grainers in my 12 twists with NO ISSUES, sure the 50-55 grainers shoot a bit tighter...but .....not sure you have it pegged just yet. Something sounds off to me.

[MT Gianni]

I get good groups with a bolt 1 in 9 and an AR 1 in 7 with 55 gr bullets. Did you place an o ring under the forearm screw?

[bruce drake]

just 100 J-word rounds down the bore...if your crown is good, I would consider it to be copper fouled. I had a .223 Rem Handi-Rifle in 02 that did the same thing to me. J-B the barrel heavily several times and things should smooth out around the 300th round as well.

Bruce

[mo_bio]

I had a handi with 1 in 12, it shot lite bullets like a champ (under .5). If I got above 55 it would start to wander. I got a 1in 9 and it will still hold about 1" with any weight bullets. Wish I had kept the 1 /12

[Taylor]

both barrels 1 in 9,don't like 55 grainers

[montana_charlie]

I have an AR15 with a 20-inch 1 in 9 barrel.
It is just 'mil-spec' everything, with nothing special or 'upgraded'.

It will keep (55 grain) M193 ammo within four inches at two hundred yards while shooting from the traditional 'sitting position' on the ground.

CM

[tacklebury]

Both my H&R .223 heavy barrel and superlite do awesome with 55 gr. Ballistic tips. I don't seem to get a tight a group with 52gr A-Max.

[Taylor]

I did find 1 box of Hornady 75 gr match yesterday.We'll see what this does.Hope it works,otherwise I have a mess.

[Dan Cash]

Sounds like a .223 M70 I had back in the late 80s. Would not hit an 8 1/2 x 11 inch piece of paper at 100 yards. Hit it once at fifty but bullet was in full keyhole mode. Winchester said was not anything wrong with gun but it was unsafe as I had adjusted the trigger down from 15 pounds. Turned the gunm into an Bropwing Auto 5 12 ga. Problem solved.

[Mike in TX]

Check your forearm. It may be too tight. Use "o" rings to loosen up.

[tacklebury]

75 Gr. will likely be too much for a 1:9 twist even. You should try nothing over 70 gr. in that twist. You really need a 1:7 twist to stabilize the longer pills. If you are shooting a 1:12, you should stick to 40 or 45 gr. mainly.

[Fishman]

75 Gr. will likely be too much for a 1:9 twist even. You should try nothing over 70 gr. in that twist. You really need a 1:7 twist to stabilize the longer pills. If you are shooting a 1:12, you should stick to 40 or 45 gr. mainly.

Yes I concur. 75 gr is too heavy for 1:12

I have not tested it but one of the no-no's with handi-rifles is oil on the barrel latch. Dry that and snap the action closed with authority to ensure repeatability. If this is a second-hand barrel you may have fitment issues.

[torpedoman]

actually you do sound more like grumpy ! LOL

[Taylor]

I agree on the 75 being a bit much,that was all I could find.They didn't work either.

Range report:
Went to the range today with my son and a friend. Between me and Roger,we had 45gr,3 different 55gr and the 75 grain.My 55gr was remington that had be stored for 20 years,8 out of 20 misfired.The other seemed to group OK,at about 4"-6" at 100 yards.But they did group. The 45 gr actually did the best,with a 3 shot group that could be covered with a dime.Nothing else did any good at distances past 50 yards. At 50 everything is spot on. We talked about twist rates and bullets weights without any real satisfaction.

Everything so far that I have read leads me to believe that a 45gr is to light for a 1-9 twist,yet it worked today.Also I was assured by H&R that my barrel is a 1-9.However,after returning home I decided to check for my self (using a cleaning rod a piece of tape).I measured a 1-10. Measured 4X,each time it came out to 1-10. As far as I know they didn't make that twist rate in 223.

Another thought,if I take a sized a trimmed case,insert bullet lightly and close the barrel,and then inspect the round it does not move from it's original position.Normally this would seat the bullet deeper into the case.But not in this case.

I have tried the O ring trick,no difference noted. All firing has been done from a lead sled and good solid bench.

At this point I feel I have made no actual improvement nor come to any reasonable conclusion.Now I am not the best shot in the world,but I ain't all that bad either. I had ordered 69gr sierra matchking for this barrel ( they are on backorder) because of the 1-9 rate.

[selmerfan]

One word: Scope. You're wasting ammo until you try a different scope.

[bstarling]

I had the exact same problem with mine and it was the scope.

Bill

[Taylor]

The scope works fine on other rifles,but that was my first concern.At this point it is being return to H&R for evaluation.We'll go from there,wait and see what happens.

[selmerfan]

So since you've had your troubles with the Handi-rifle you've swapped out scopes? Tried the Weaver on other rifles? I'm not sure if you've ever had a scope go south on you, but I have. It happens in a heartbeat, or more likely, a trigger pull. I hope the Weaver is just fine - the rifle is probably the easier fix! :grin:

[Taylor]

Yep,been there done that with scopes.Will drive you crazy.

[selmerfan]

Amen!

[Taz700]

Had a buddy with a rifle that would shoot high, low, left, right, up, down, found out the rings were shot (the screws were tight) but the scope wasn't. You should get great groups out of a 24" barrel. I can keep 1.5" or less at 200 with a 20" 1in9 twist barrel shooting fast. Timed rounds under .75" (that's a 55 gr, mixed case, rem primer, 24.5 gr of H335). I think the scope is up.

[Jack D]

My .357 mag. Handi came with a scope base from the factory. It was not installed properly. One hole was drilled off center and only one of the three screws were tight. I was blaming the scope until I heard it rattle and discovered the base was loose and off center. I disposed of the base and installed a 12" picatinney rail in its place. Problem solved.

[M-Tecs]

Some 9 twists will shoot 75’s OK but most will not. A 12 twist should handle 62’s OK. A 9 twist will handle 40 to 69 grain bullets just fine. The closest thing that I have found to a magic load is my favorite prairie dog load of 27.5 of H335 under a 40 grain Nosler ballistic tip or 40 grain Hornady V-max. I have shot this load in 20 plus 223 rifles with 6.5, 7, 7.7, 8, 9, 12, 13 & 14 twists. I have yet to find a rifle that did not like this load.

I build match rifles on the side. I use the 40grs/H335 for barrel break in and initial test firing. I just did two AR’s with Krieger barrels. One for myself and on for a friend. Mine is a 9 twist and my friends is a 13 twist. Both will consistently do 3/8” moa for five shots with the 40 grain loads. With a good bullet over spinning is generally not a problem. Some of the cheap bulk bullets will open up if spun to fast. It shouldn’t be an issue with a 9 twist.

[Taylor]

Thanks for the help guys,just waiting on HR to get back with me.

[slammer1]

Taylor,
1 thing I keyed on was that you're shooting from a lead sled. The lead sled's front rest supports the forearm. Handi's don't typically shoot as well if any pressure is put on the forend. I understand they shoot better by placing the front rest right in front of the trigger guard (touching receiver metal). To get this kind of a support requires a tripod rest (I use a Caldwell Rock jr. and a support bag under the buttstock). Something worth trying when your Handi comes back...

[country gent]

The 75s should shine in your 9 twist barrel I use the for 200-300 yard lines in my AR. When the targets come up golf tees spotting the bullet holes heads are ussually touching. WHat do your groups look like stringing vertical or horizontal just a spray of holes or start of a group and fliers. Many things affect how a barrel shoots. Fit, finnish, tensions, internal stresses in the metals, Bench technique, cleaning, and recoil managment. Need a little more info actually. I have the same handi rifle slightly older with 12 twist barrel it is very accurate and a good shooter with 50-55 grn bullets but go any heavier and things go south real quick. My High Power 75 grn hornady load key holed at 50 yds in it. I gave it to Dad to use on the farm with a couple hundred 50 grn load that it liked for wood chucks and pests.

[Taylor]

I got the rifle back from H&R,along with a target,shows 3 shots at 100 yards with a 62gr bullet--nice and tight.They chamfered the barrel is all they said.I have not had the time to take it to the range yet.

[ACrowe25]

Glad H&R made it right, I had problems with my ultra slug (ejection problems) and they fixed it for me no problem.

[Four Fingers of Death]

My 1 in 8" twist Tikka does not like 55Gn jacketed bullets at all. My mate who usually shoots beside me with an identical rifle, shoots them into a ragged hole, haha! Don't you just hate that? :D

[Whiterabbit]

Taylor,
1 thing I keyed on was that you're shooting from a lead sled. The lead sled's front rest supports the forearm. Handi's don't typically shoot as well if any pressure is put on the forend. I understand they shoot better by placing the front rest right in front of the trigger guard (touching receiver metal). To get this kind of a support requires a tripod rest (I use a Caldwell Rock jr. and a support bag under the buttstock). Something worth trying when your Handi comes back...

My thoughts exactly. I have a handi with a 357 barrel that shoots just fine rested. Snap the inline on it and it can't shoot the broad side of a barn from the inside. Tried different sights, resting on the barrel lug, resting on the frame, nothing.

Never had an issue hitting a large steel plate at 100 from a standing position, so terrible bench groups were really bothering me.

Tried just holding the gun when sitting at the bench, elbows braced on the bench. Holes nice and tight at 50 yards. no wonder steels were easy offhand at 100 yards!

Moral of the story is no more "bench" shooting for my inline. It's sighted and does just fine offhand. I wonder if your 223 will behave if shot offhand.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I don't own a handi, but I find my lever rifles shoot a lot better off the bench when I support the forend with my weak hand between it and the benchrest bag. We have a product here called the MaxBox. It makes shooting these 'awkward' rifles easy.

Here is a link to a YouTube video about it; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMZQnLoASeA

[NickSS]

75 gr bullets are usually too heavy for a 1 in 9 twist they need a 1 in 8 or 1 in 7 twist to work well. I have one handy in 223 and it shoots very well with 50 through 69 gr bullets.

[JimP.]

I learned a long time ago with Handi rifles to use my hand between the front sandbag and the stock. My friend had a 30-06 Handi he couldn't get to group at 50 yds throwing a shotgun size pattern until he started placing his hand between the stock and the sand bag. Turned into a very accurate hunting rifle. Taylor give this a try and you will see a difference. Even my Buff Classic shoots better with my hand between the sandbag and the front stock. JimP.

[kir_kenix]

I shoot my 22-250 "ultra" fluted handy off of a bipod with a rear bag. For some reason it shoots a heck of alot better with the pod then off of bags. It's not a fantastic shooter, but it does well enough to put down wondering coyotes if they decide to stop and look over thier shoulder. A 35gr V-max at rediculous velocities does alot of nearside pelt damage to these dogs for some reason...