Please help a new-b converting birdshot into slugs for target practice.

[mossbergman]

First, i am glad that I found this place as its exactly what I need to get me started :)

I own a mossberg 590A1 smoothbore and am starting to shoot more and more. Which is getting expensive as everyone is aware. So naturally you begin to think reload my own. Rather than jump in with two feet I decided to instead go slow and learn as i go. However, as a usual new-b you still want to do it right. So here I go.

I purchase the wallmart federal bird shot #8 and #7 1/2 and went ahead and invested in a lee slug mold and a production pot. Built myself a nice shell cutter which is working real nice in getting the top of the shell cut open. So i did this with a few and collected all the shot. melted that down and cleaned all the dross out of it. First I have noted that I did not expect that much dross but boy was I wrong. using standard candle wax has yeilded alot of nasty dirty stuff. ok so I cleaned all the lead and poured it into ingots. following are my questions I have on the ingots. and I will try to follow up with actual photos once I get a chance.

1. my ingots seem to come out looking rather frosty... is this because the melting temp is too high? I put the lees production pot on 4 when pouring but I do not have a thermometer yet.

2. Have I ruined my lead? since its not shiney

3. I'm pouring ingot moulds into hockey pucs and noticedthat some have developed cracks... is this normal?

Ok, I have not casted any slugs yet because I have several questions and I do not want to mess this up. Since I have cut the crimping down on the shells the question I have is this new sorter shell of any concern??? Now inside of the federal bird shot I see four parts... a. gunpowder b. a plastic wad with a stem c. on top of the stem sits the shot cup d. the shot itself. cutting open the shell leaves in most cases 1/16"of shell plastic from the shot cup. The big question is how do I close the shells back up? I've seen some guys use silicone. The concern here is that some of my cut shells do not have enough shell plastic at the top to adhere the silicone to them. having a slug fall out of the shell once chambered is to be avoided as I understand. So, I did go ahead and buy the BPI roll crimper but once I got it I noticed that I need about 1/4" of shell plastic to achieve a proper roll crimp. remember I only have 1/16" to the shot cup on most bullets and on some I have no plastic left as the top of the shotshell plastic meets the shot cup. so do I cut the shot cup hight down? do I roll crimp it causing the shot cup to fold over the top of the slug? which would make for a realy messy looking bullet.

I will be following up with some pictures which will hopefully make some sence from my ramblings :)

Thanks in advance for all of the help you can provide this new-b. please set me straight so any and all good info is important for me to learn to do this in a responsible way. again thanks.

[mossbergman]

ok found this video on you tube that shows exactly what I'm looking to do... in fact I think he shows the federal birdshot loads commonly found at walmarts. anyway, he cuts open the shell to expose the wad with stem and the shot cup at 1:33 of the video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQGVf5_dtwA

Now ar 4:16 of the next video he shows the shot cut past the point of the shell plastic and later trims it. at 4:43 he shows how he trims the shot cup which to me is a crude way to do so. Am I overthinking this but it seems to me that once he puts silicone to seal the top the shell at 5:05 of the video he will not a have any surface of the shell plastic to adhere to, only the shot cup. Isn't this dangerouse as there is a chance that the slug may slide out of the shell befor firing? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QN8i5z-KJ1g

[frkelly74]

You are taking a short cut to try to produce some shootable slugs on the cheap. When you cut down the shell you are doing away with the part of the shell intended to be utilized for the crimp. I do not really know if this is a good idea or not but I do know that others have done similar. If your slug weighs the same as the shot charge then it seems that you would have a safe load but there are things to consider. You said you are using the shot as alloy to cast and normally slugs are cast from pure or at least soft lead. Shot is not soft lead as it has some bismuth alloyed into it to keep it from deforming at firing. I think you should find some soft lead to cast. If your gun has a choked barrel this is even more important to have a malleable slug. It will need to be able to squeeze down or it may damage the choke or worse. Having said all that, If I were going to try to make slug loads the way that you are describing with a cut off shell, leaving the wad inplace and an original unaltered powder charge, I would consider dribbling a small amount of liquid alox around the perimeter of the slug seated all the way into the wad. Lee slugs are undersized to fit into the wads and normally you would re crimp the shell with a normal folded crimp , if you were reloading a previously fired shell. If you cut off the crimped part then as you stated you do need to secure the slug into the loaded shell somehow. I would not use very much alox, just enough to keep the slug from getting away and make sure it is fully seated. I would recommend that you get a manual and read it to get familiar with the basics of reloading before you actually load any shells. You do need an understanding of how different powders work and what they are intended for and what will happen if you do something foolish. Safety needs to come before being cheap. Good Luck with your project and be safe!!

[longbow]

Back up a step.

You bought a Lee slug mould and with that mould came instructions and load data.

Since you are just trying to exchange a slug for birdshot you aren't actually reloading but some of the information Lee supplies should be useful ~ especially the bits about casting slugs. You should also do some reading about casting if you have not cast... and make sure you have gloves and safety glasses and that you are wearing "substantial" shirt, pants and shoes/boots because you may get splashed with molten lead.

If you gun is cylinder bore (no choke) then a hard slug will not matter. However, you have to make sure that the slug will fit into the shotcup without bulging the hull. Some shotcups have internal ridges on the petals so the slug will not fit well. You will have to check.

You should also read up on casting and working with Lee moulds. There is a lot of info on this site. As a new caster, you will probably run into problems like the slug sticking to the core pin. This can be frustrating but is easily solvable by pre-heating the mould before use. If a slug sticks, you have to be gentle removing it or there is a good chance you will damage your mould.

If you read the Lee instructions you will find that they say to use soft lead for slugs. That is not entirely necessary and again, if your gun is cylinder bore then you do not have to worry about a choke or the slug having to squeeze through a choke. if your gun is choked, accuracy with a hard slug will probably not be good as the wad petals will be flattened and possibly shear as they go through the choke.

I also suggest that you get a reloading press and load properly. Not saying you can't get away with what you are doing but I suspect results will be mediocre as you have little control over the components.

As a minimum, you might want to read through this thread:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?185494-Lee-Slug-Load-that-doesn-t-suck

and pay particular attention to the information Ajay has provided about slug/wad fit to barrel. You could pull a wad with needle nose pliers or just cut a hull open to get one then put a slug in and see how it fits your barrel.

I don't think you will find any helpful information in a manual for what you are doing. Slug loading manuals provide "recipes" and techniques for loading. Shotgun reloading is not a lot like metallic cartridge reloading. All the components work together and cannot be randomly swapped ~ especially hulls and primers.

What you are doing swapping an equal weight slug for shot should be safe but just may not perform well.

With a Lee Loadall, which is not expensive, at least you could open the crimp rather than cutting it off then recrimp after putting your slug in. That would solve a couple of the problems you have already run into. A crimped hull will retain the slug, keep dirt out and provide some wad pressure for consistent powder ignition.

As for cutting off the crimp, you can do that but you do need a method of retaining the slug. Some use beeswax poured in after loading the slug. just melt a bit and pour a small amount around the slug.

Another tip is to use a 1/8" nitro card wad under the slug to prevent the wad from ramming itself into the hollow base. The drive key helps but does not prevent that especially with some wads. I use 16 ga. nitro card wads under my slugs but 20 ga. work well too.

If you do decide to get into reloading then by all means, get at least one good loading manual like the Lyman Shotshell Reloading handbook or even better Reloading for Shotgunners. You will find that slug loading information is a bit sparse so several reference is a good idea. Also, powder manufacturers will have loading info on their websites so that is another good source, and free.

You have what you need to get started but do some reading and ask questions if you are not sure. Have fun and play, but play safe!

Longbow

[mossbergman]

thank you guys so far for the information. Much appreciated.

ok, I realize that I need to clarify a few things. yes I purchased a slug mold but I do not have it yet. Its in the mail and should get here soon. I am glad to hear that lee gives you a set of instructions with the mold. i thought they were pretty basic but I will be SURE to read through it. Safety is key. My shotgun is a cylinder bore (no choke)...

Yes I am just melting down the birdshot (which I have already done so into ingots). did lots of resurch to get to this step... especially on you tube. Once I cast the melted lead into slugs I plan on putting them back into the existing hull I cut open. From my resurch lee slugs weigh 1oz. and the birdshot I purchased say they use 1 1/8 oz. shot. so the slug is lighter... I'm not messing with the wad and stem plastic part. I will just be placing the slug into the shot cup.

My main concerns are with sealing the hull properly. I purchased the roll crimper and was wondering if this would be better than silicone as the video I posted shows? since the shot cup slides in with the slug and the shot cup is litteraly flush to the top of the shell case whatever i drop over the top of the slug like wax has nothing to adhere to but to the shot cup itself. so the slug will be adhered to the shot cup but whats preventing the shot cup from sliding out of the plastic shotshell hull with the slug?

As for the lee load all... yes i have seen this unit as you said they are cheap. however, i have already cut open a couple hundred rounds to get enough lead to melt. I hope they wont have to go to waste and can actually be used at the range. I would like to eventually get into loading and may even go for a MEP loader or something a bit better than the lees load all but for now I wanted to see if i can do this safely. i am not expecting to get further than 50 yards acurately enough out of these. I mostly shoot at those distances with my shotgun so it would be cool if I can get a 6-8" grouping with these at 50 yards. i won't even try these at longer distances. I think the box states that the birdshot is rated at 1300 FPS so I will assume I will be getting slightly less than this at 1100-1200 FPS. which from what I see should be ok at those distances for simple target practice. Farther distances i will be using high brass factory loads for now.

Thanks for the link you provided. I am cheching it out now.

[Ironduke]

I don't question the guy on the video's integrity, but I am amazed. Seriously, I think he got lucky with his hits with his home made slugs. Is his gun rifled? I don't recall. If he's shooting smooth bore, cylinder bore, I am astounded by his accuracy. Shooting off a bunch at 50 yards, I was lucky to keep all my hits in a man sized target.

I melted down some lead shot a few days ago. I had a big bag of shot, but no ingots or other lead. It makes a LOT of trash on top of the Pb. I don't know what the hardness is of the lead now, but this was magnum shot, which is hardened to prevent deformation in magnum loads. The slugs look just like all the other ones I have case with the known alloy Pb I have been using.

I am new to casting too, but his method of pouring up the lead into the mold will create wrinkled slugs every time due to the mold being cold. This is no big deal for slugs in practice, but the method he used for the demonstration would make terrible boolits in a pistol or rifle mold.

[Agent1187]

The key to *reliable* shooting of slugs in the manner you are describing is separation from the wad.
My first try at the Lee 1 oz slug was just replacing the slug for my birdshot reloads. Accuracy was reasonable for a starting load, about 5" at 50 yards for a 5 shot group.
So I cleaned and the slug barrel which was a bit grungy, loaded some more and tried the 100 and 50 yard ranges. Needless to say, I was hitting all around and in my 8.5x11" paper target at 50 yards.
The picture shows why - The wads never separated. My first trial (wad and wad/slug on the left) resulted in all the wad petals getting sheared off, and was a reasonably aerodynamic projectile. The second trial, I retained almost all the wad petals, which is like throwing a poorly crumpled ball of paper. Kinda just went wherever.
Now I need to find something to keep almost 3/8" of wad from getting shoved into the base of the slug.

62308

[longbow]

Use at least one 16 ga. or 20 ga. nitro card wad under the slugs. That will keep the wads from relocating into the cavity. It will also raise the slug to better position in the shotcup for crimping.

Yes, that is a good point about wad separation ~ it is critical that the wad separate cleanly and consistently if you want accuracy.

My reloaded Lee slugs are currently giving me about 4" to 6" groups at 50 yards which is not actually as good as my round ball loads which give me 3" to 4" groups at 50 yards. The slugs may do better at longer range than the balls though, and I will test for that. This is from smoothbore with no choke and rifle sights.

The slug should provide groups of under 6" at 50 yards unless something is wrong.

As for the removing crimp idea, beeswax or paraffin poured in should lock the slug into the hull because the wax will get between petals. It may affect wad separation though. paraffin might be a better choice than beeswax in that regard.

If the slug is a snug push fit into the hull it may not require a wax "keeper" but if it is loose at all and especially if you are feeding from the magazine you will want that slug held tightly.

Longbow

[mossbergman]

Use at least one 16 ga. or 20 ga. nitro card wad under the slugs. That will keep the wads from relocating into the cavity. It will also raise the slug to better position in the shotcup for crimping.

Yes, that is a good point about wad separation ~ it is critical that the wad separate cleanly and consistently if you want accuracy.

My reloaded Lee slugs are currently giving me about 4" to 6" groups at 50 yards which is not actually as good as my round ball loads which give me 3" to 4" groups at 50 yards. The slugs may do better at longer range than the balls though, and I will test for that. This is from smoothbore with no choke and rifle sights.

The slug should provide groups of under 6" at 50 yards unless something is wrong.

As for the removing crimp idea, beeswax or paraffin poured in should lock the slug into the hull because the wax will get between petals. It may affect wad separation though. paraffin might be a better choice than beeswax in that regard.

If the slug is a snug push fit into the hull it may not require a wax "keeper" but if it is loose at all and especially if you are feeding from the magazine you will want that slug held tightly.

Longbow

arent parafin and beeswax melting temps pretty low? reason I ask is if i'm firing 50 rounds the barrel will get pretty steamy and my concern would be the slug dislodging from the shotshell in the barrel.. i don't plan on loading these through the magazine but rather single load through the reciever one at a time unless they can be roll crimped or something.

[longbow]

Yup, the melting point is pretty low but if you aren't leaving the round in a hot chamber for a significant length of time, I wouldn't worry about it.

If you pick up a roll crimper there may be enough hull to roll over a little. You can roll crimp with a hand drill though a drill press is better.

Maybe you could punch or buy over shot card wads and glue those over the slug? Since you have cut the end of the hull off, there aren't a lot of options.

Longbow

[mossbergman]

Yup, the melting point is pretty low but if you aren't leaving the round in a hot chamber for a significant length of time, I wouldn't worry about it.

If you pick up a roll crimper there may be enough hull to roll over a little. You can roll crimp with a hand drill though a drill press is better.

Maybe you could punch or buy over shot card wads and glue those over the slug? Since you have cut the end of the hull off, there aren't a lot of options.

Longbow

Is cutting the wad a bad idea? I'm talking about cutting the stem down 1/8-1/4" to provide for 1/4" proper roll crimp on top. The other thing I could do is cut down the shot cup by 1/4" to allow for a proper roll crimp. Please see the following video at 1:33 of the video as you can see the exact two pard wad and stem I am dealing with. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQGVf5_dtwA

The overshot cards may be a good idea in keeping small sized shot in the hull or even buckshot but you would still need to roll crimp it. I would still have little room 1/16" to get a roll crimp in. Highly unlikely to get it right in that dimention.

Hey I really appreciate your input and all others contributing to help this new beginer get started.

[mossbergman]

The key to *reliable* shooting of slugs in the manner you are describing is separation from the wad.
My first try at the Lee 1 oz slug was just replacing the slug for my birdshot reloads. Accuracy was reasonable for a starting load, about 5" at 50 yards for a 5 shot group.
So I cleaned and the slug barrel which was a bit grungy, loaded some more and tried the 100 and 50 yard ranges. Needless to say, I was hitting all around and in my 8.5x11" paper target at 50 yards.
The picture shows why - The wads never separated. My first trial (wad and wad/slug on the left) resulted in all the wad petals getting sheared off, and was a reasonably aerodynamic projectile. The second trial, I retained almost all the wad petals, which is like throwing a poorly crumpled ball of paper. Kinda just went wherever.
Now I need to find something to keep almost 3/8" of wad from getting shoved into the base of the slug.

62308

wow thanks for sharing that... seems like another issue I will probably be facing later in terms of accuracy. Since I will be unable to recover the load after its shot at my local range I would probably never have known about this.

Wondering how you crimp the top of your shell??? Please advise... thanks again

[Agent1187]

Recovery of boolits and slugs has helped me identify alot of my issues.
I just use a normal 8 point star crimp, the same as my trap loads. I try not to let the crimp cave in, but when it does I don't get too worried about it.

[mossbergman]

Recovery of boolits and slugs has helped me identify alot of my issues.
I just use a normal 8 point star crimp, the same as my trap loads. I try not to let the crimp cave in, but when it does I don't get too worried about it.

I wish they would allow me to recover my slugs at my range. however, i will take your pictures as a lesson here and am ordering up some 20ga nitro cards from balistic products next week once i get my mold and cast one. I need to see exactly what thickness i need to get. they come in .125 and .70 thickness. since i'm cutting off te crimp on the top and hopefully roll crimping my shells after slug loading, i have to determine what hight i need to set my slug at. Only slight other issue is the tolerance on these cheap birdshot loads is not that accurate i have noticed at least a 1/16" variance amoung loaded hight of the shell which just adds to the complexity of quality control of each shell.


thanks for all of the great info. you provided.

[longbow]

My opinion only:

- I would open up the crimp rather than cut off the hull
- If I were to cut off the hull I would do it at the inside where the star crimp is or right at the top of the roll
- melting lead to cast in a ladle is a waste of time, use a pot or can to melt at least a few pounds of lead so the mould is used constantly to cast and stays at casting temperature ~ faster, easier, better slugs will result
- don't whack your mould or even mould handles with pliers, hammers, wrenches or whatever, use a wood dowel or wood mallet and tap, don't whack hard or you will ruin mould/mould handles
- I would cut the shotcup down some so that with at least one nitro card wad under the slug the petals on the shotcup come to the bottom of the nose radius ~ you do not want petals extending past the slug if you can help it; that might also leave enough room for a slight roll crimp
- my thought of the overshot card wad was just to be able to glue something in place to hold the slug, you really need a bit of resistance to allow the powder to ignite properly; a crimp actually takes quite a lot of force to open so gives the powder a chance to build pressure and burn consistently
- Even if your range does not allow you to dig for slugs, you can surely pick up wads? They will tell you a lot too.
- yes, wads driven into the base of the slug is bad and will ruin accuracy ~ that's why the nitro card wad under is a good idea. Lee recommended wads is another bit of good advice. Another option is filling the cavity with hot melt glue. Both work. Use 0.125" (1/8") nitro card wads at least one under the slug or fill the slug with hot melt glue... or both. If you use hot melt glue then put a bit of cornmeal or Cream 'O Wheat over the card so it won't stick to the glue before putting the slug in the hull.

Longbow

[35remington]

If you're cutting off your crimps you won't have much to roll crimp with. My concern with your methods is holding the slug in the hull and generating sufficient slug start resistance for the powder to burn correctly.

Is there some reason you don't want to reload? You're going about this the wrong way.

[kenyerian]

While we are on the subject of making slugs from inexpensive factory loads in an emergency situation a cut shell will turn a small game hunting load into something a little more lethal. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3M46XVfVOU . I'm sure it is not legal for hunting but in a worse case senario it might come in handy.

[mossbergman]

If you're cutting off your crimps you won't have much to roll crimp with. My concern with your methods is holding the slug in the hull and generating sufficient slug start resistance for the powder to burn correctly.

Is there some reason you don't want to reload? You're going about this the wrong way.

Thanks for the comment...

I cut off litterally 1/32" - 2/32" off the very top of the crimp because from what i have expierienced you can not roll crimp an already folded crimp properly. i built something like this device to cut off the shell top. However, my desing is better and cuts off less plastic than this one shows. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTR7Bhqg2hQ

The reason I am doing this right now is so I can shoot more at a lower cost. right now i spend about $1.25 - $1.50 for a factory slug. I commonly shoot anywhere from 50-100 rounds at the range. You can see that won't last long as mnoney will quickly dry out. Since that is the ONLY round my range will allow me to shoot i have very little choice. Reloading is far more complex as you need to have a great understanding of the proper load, wad, crimp, hull ect. I definatly see myself getting into this but the savings with a slug is not as substantial with reloading than it is with this meathod. Plus I'm not messing with the gunpowder or wad just replacing 1 1/8 oz shot with a 1 oz slug.

anyone have any data on fold crimp vs. roll crimp pressures?

[mossbergman]

While we are on the subject of making slugs from inexpensive factory loads in an emergency situation a cut shell will turn a small game hunting load into something a little more lethal. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3M46XVfVOU . I'm sure it is not legal for hunting but in a worse case senario it might come in handy.

since I'm using these primarily for target loads i am interested in keeping the accuracy fairly consistant. otherwise what would target practice achieve if you have a round that is not accurate. a wax lug is not accurate and niether is a cut shell. However both of thoes rounds make the round much more leathal... i would agree with that. Target practice is not practical though.

[mossbergman]

My opinion only:

- I would open up the crimp rather than cut off the hull
- If I were to cut off the hull I would do it at the inside where the star crimp is or right at the top of the roll
- melting lead to cast in a ladle is a waste of time, use a pot or can to melt at least a few pounds of lead so the mould is used constantly to cast and stays at casting temperature ~ faster, easier, better slugs will result
- don't whack your mould or even mould handles with pliers, hammers, wrenches or whatever, use a wood dowel or wood mallet and tap, don't whack hard or you will ruin mould/mould handles
- I would cut the shotcup down some so that with at least one nitro card wad under the slug the petals on the shotcup come to the bottom of the nose radius ~ you do not want petals extending past the slug if you can help it; that might also leave enough room for a slight roll crimp
- my thought of the overshot card wad was just to be able to glue something in place to hold the slug, you really need a bit of resistance to allow the powder to ignite properly; a crimp actually takes quite a lot of force to open so gives the powder a chance to build pressure and burn consistently
- Even if your range does not allow you to dig for slugs, you can surely pick up wads? They will tell you a lot too.
- yes, wads driven into the base of the slug is bad and will ruin accuracy ~ that's why the nitro card wad under is a good idea. Lee recommended wads is another bit of good advice. Another option is filling the cavity with hot melt glue. Both work. Use 0.125" (1/8") nitro card wads at least one under the slug or fill the slug with hot melt glue... or both. If you use hot melt glue then put a bit of cornmeal or Cream 'O Wheat over the card so it won't stick to the glue before putting the slug in the hull.

Longbow

excellent advice... I don't plan on using anythink to tap onto the lee mould if i can help it and if the boolit drops out correctly. have you seen this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMXtwOqc1NY

I plan on trying to do the same if possible. i realize he is casting a differant boolit than a slug namely the negative center pin that seats the slug in the mould so not sure if this will work but I think opening the sprue plate by hand with my heavy duty welding gloves is the way to go. The key with this system is keeping the mould at a consistant temp. the way to do this is to time the casting properly so you don't allow the mould to cool down in the process. when you pour the lead into the mould at 700 deg. it reheats the mould. casting too quickly or too slow yealds bad resutls the key is getting the timing right. as you can see the guy in the vid taps the mould with his glove hand. No wood what-so-ever. Hopefully this method will work for slugs as well. if not light tap on the bolt mat be needed on slug moulds. we'll see. i just got the mould today and prepping it later with lube and smoke.