C358-180-RF group buy data

[Junior1942]

Here's the average data on the group buy C358-180-RF mold which I received early this morning:

Alloy = WW + old sprues and bullets

Weight = 185.76
Diameter = .360"
Length = .714"

With a 3.34 gr gascheck and 1.0 grs of lube, this bullet will load at 190.1 grs. I'm hoping to get 1750 fps from it with Lil'Gun in my Rossi M92 357 mag carbine.

[Oldfeller]

Jr, we got one madman what has taken that little rossi chamber deeper with a .357 Maximum reamer. He gets .35 Remington ballistics out of it now.

His madness makes fair sense as he didn't disturb the chamber wall thickness any, he just elevated the pressures a bit while leaving all his steel in place to handle it.

(he coulda just seated the bullet way way way on out in a straight reamer lengthened throat and just used the standard .357 brass, you know. It's a break action for crimmy's sake, just so the gas check is firm crimped in the case mouth you can run the rest of the slug way on out into a nicely fitted throat and use your .357 brass' total length just to hold a whole lot of powder)

Anyhow, we got us another much worser madman what is pondering that a .358 Winchester reamer might cuddle into the remaining chamber wall thickness (intending to shoot cheap mil-surp Nato brass at cast boolit pressures using IMR 7383).

This second madman, is he totally crazy or what???

He bases his mental sickness on thin barrel wall Marlin lever action folks who have been cutting 35 Remingtons out to .358 Winchester for some time now (sucessfully, BTW).

Now, you got yourself a Rossi and you are familar with Marlin lever actions, so that makes you sorta an expert on the subject, right? More or less, anyway.

At least you have something to measure with a caliper ....


Oldfeller

[Leftoverdj]

Oldfeller, you get several such madmen. Most of them are doing NEF Handis, though. I dunno enough about the Rossi to have a opinion, but the Handis will take a rechamber to .358 or .358 Whelen. The .357 Max conversion is a twenty minute do it yourself job and comes real close to matching .35 Rem ballistics.

[jeff223]

i used leftoverdjs reamer to rechamber my 12inch 357mag TC Contender to 357max and i love it.i just got a super 14 TC 44mag barrel and thats going to become a 445 super mag or a 444 marlin very soonhttp://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

sure is lots of mad men aroundhttp://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Junior1942]

In case someone missed my other post, seated in the crimping groove our new bullet won't feed through my Rossi M92 clone. The nose is too big. It chambers by hand just fine but won't cycle through the action.

[sundog]

Junior, have you tried crimping on the ogive? I had to do that in the .44 Mag with one of the boolits to get it feed. Lose a little space in the case, but if you're not shootin' full house loads, no big deal. Or maybe load'em in .38 Spl cases? sundog

[Scrounger]

Junior, have you tried crimping on the ogive? I had to do that in the .44 Mag with one of the boolits to get it feed. Lose a little space in the case, but if you're not shootin' full house loads, no big deal. Or maybe load'em in .38 Spl cases? sundog

Or trim cases a bit shorter?

[Nrut]

I bet the problem is "not" the O.A.L. but the large .280" meplat that is hanging up on the chamber as the bolt tries to push the loaded round from the lifter into the chamber... I have a Rossi 92 also and a LBT .357 WFN mold with a .250" melpat and it hangs up also now and then... because of the above stated problem....also had to have the cart. stop ground back a little to allow for the slightly longer overall length.... Sadly I don't know how to addresss the large meplat problem....other than to order a mold with say a meplat around .230" or 65% or so...cheers mic

[Leftoverdj]

That feeding problem should be fixable. One thing to try is to radius the entrance to the chamber. Doesn't take much, just enough to knock the sharp edge off. Sometimes you need to tinker with the lifter a little too. My 1894 Marlin will feed full wadcutters so it ain't the meplat; it's the rifle.

First part of the process is to identify where and how it is hanging.

[Junior1942]

It might feed using 38 spec cases and seating the bullet as deep as possible and forcing a crimp with a Lee FC die. But heck, that would kill the usable case capacity. After much tinkering/investigation, the big meplat is the problem. The loaded round doesn't have room to turn the corner and fully enter the chamber as it rises on the lifter and is pushed upward and forward by the bolt.

DJ, I could grind some from the lower lip of the chamber entrance and the bullet would feed. But I think it would take more grinding than just removing the edge.

[Nrut]

It might feed using 38 spec cases and seating the bullet as deep as possible and forcing a crimp with a Lee FC die. But heck, that would kill the usable case capacity. After much tinkering/investigation, the big meplat is the problem. The loaded round doesn't have room to turn the corner and fully enter the chamber as it rises on the lifter and is pushed upward and forward by the bolt.

DJ, I could grind some from the lower lip of the chamber entrance and the bullet would feed. But I think it would take more grinding than just removing the edge.

Junior that is my problem also... the bullet nose is hanging up...INSIDE...the chamber because of the angle of the case in relation to the chamber and the radius of the large melplat nose....if I don't operate the lever "to fast" it gives the rear of the case time to pop up and aline the round with the chamber and it feeds then...but my meplat is smaller (.250") than the Lee group buy (which I have one those coming also).......I'm thinking maybe the Marlins geomentry is different to allow it to feed larger meplated bullets....look at the one Dan @ Mt. Molds is feeding thru his Marlin....I have the same problem with my B92 in .44 mag using Lee's 300gr+ FN bullet....then there is the twist rate problem with it (B92) and heavy bullets.........you should have no problem selling your mold if you can't make it work....cheers mic

[jeff223]

Nrut i sent the your mold out on the same day as all the rest.i would think it would be to you by now.maybe it takes longer when things are shipped from USA to Canada?i dont know for sure?i filled the customs papers out on your mold like i did for another fellow in Canada.i filled it out as it was a gift from me to you so no duty had to be paid on the mold.i sure hope your mold get there soonhttp://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Nrut]

Hi Jeff.....going to town tomorrow..haven't been there for over a week..usually takes me a week an a half to get U.S. mail ...BTW thanks for the present Jeff!!! I'll be sending you a list of what I want for Xmas in early Nov. so that you will have plenty of time to ship it!....cheers mic

[Leftoverdj]

Junior and Nrut, if I am reading you right, the nose is entering the chamber and wedging. Best I can visualize without a 92 handy, the lifter is not coming close enough to horizonal and the case head is not sliding smoothly up the bolt face. I'd look hard for sharp edges and burrs and for a way to make that riser lift a bit more.

[Nrut]

dj...close-- the lifter is at a 45 deg. with the nose of the bullet starting into the chamber...there are two little rails on each side of the reciever that the bolt rides on ..part of the bolt is below the rails pushing on the base of the case...these rails are close enough together that the rim can't get above until the case is pushed far enough forward to the "cut outs" in the rails...then the case pops up and alines with the chamber and the bolt pushs the round into battery.......Maybe those "cut-outs" could be ground in such away to allow the case to pop-up sooner ....I don't want to try it in case I screw something up as I have no idea where you could find Rossi parts up here in canada....fact is you can't even buy a new Rossi or even a new Miroku 92.....Just ordered a used Marlin 1894C so if the the group buy mold does'nt feed in the Rossi I can use it for the Marlin......cheers mic

[Junior1942]

Guys, Steve at www.stevesgunz.com is a Rossi factory repair center, and he answered my post on the www.leverguns.com forum about my feeding problem with the C359-180-RF. (DJ got it right, as usual.) First thing to do, according to Steve, is to give the bottom edge of the chamber entrance just a tad more of a funnel shape. Just on the bottom and just a little, Steve said, or else higher pressures loads will swell the case in that area.

I will give it a try this very morning. Of course, I will post the results. I very much hope it works because I got 1750 fps from that bullet with Lil'Gun. It would make an ideal 75 yard deer and hog load for the thickets.

[Junior1942]

It worked! The bullet now feeds like butter! I put a little ramp on the bottom edge of the chamber entrance and lowered the seating depth to a COAL of 1.545". It's crimped right in the top of the crimping groove.

A 190 gr bullet @ 1740 fps from a 357 mag is honkin'!!!

[Nrut]

Great!..my ramp was already chamfered by the previous owner so I'm going to risk doing just a little grinding on the bottom side of those rails just before the cut out like Steve suggested....Mine feeds the LBT WFN ok (slowly) but not great......
Junior------- I loaded up 50 rounds of LiL'Gun and fired them a couple of months ago using -- 15 gr of LiL'Gun and Winchester Small Pistol Mag. (new),& new cases...Out of the fifty rounds fired two had pierced primers...Have since cut down to 14.5 grs. of LiL'Gun, but have not shot them yet.....what primers are you using and how much LiL'Gun???...thanks ...mic

[Junior1942]

I'm using CCI 500 Small Pistol primers and new R-P fully prepped cases. Charge is 15.3 grs Lil'Gun. Bullet weighs 190.1 grs ready to load. AV = 1740 fps. Lube = my 411.

I went to 15.5 grs Lil'Gun with no pressure signs, but I got a decrease in Average Velocity, i.e., about 1675 fps. Either 15.5 grs are compressed too much or max burn/pressure efficiency is around 15.0 to 15.3 grs. Whatever the case, this is a hunting-only load, so when hunting seson gets here I'll drop the charge to 15.0 grs Lil'Gun for 1725 fps, which is plenty!

Also, max usable case capacity is about 15.0 grs Lil'Gun with this bullet. Anything over 15.0 grs is compressed.

[Nrut]

Thanks Junior...I'll go with "standard" small pistol primers...Just got a chrony so I'll check my loads with it...that should shed some lite on the subject also.......next weekend .....mic

[Junior1942]

Thanks Junior...I'll go with "standard" small pistol primers...Good idea.
Just got a chrony so I'll check my loads with it...that should shed some lite on the subject also.......next weekend .....micDon't forget to post your results.

This heavy bullet plus its big meplat ought to be the 357 mag rifle hunting bullet.

[Nrut]

This heavy bullet plus its big meplat ought to be the 357 mag rifle hunting bullet.[/QUOTE]

You are right there Junior-- as Marshall over at Beartooth Bullets shot "through" a angling away cow elk with the same little Rossi and basicly the same bullet!!.....better crash starting nite shift tonite...later..mic

[13Echo]

Could someone post the drawing of the bullet? I can't get on the old site to download the picture and I would like the drawing to keep with the mould.

Jerry Liles

[Junior1942]

Here you go:

[13Echo]

Thank you sir. I appreciate it.

I wish there was an archive page on this site with drawings of all the bullets that have been produced by this group. It's getting to be quite an impressive collection and should be preserved.

Jerry Liles

[Junior1942]

I finally finished the article. See http://www.castbullet.com/shooting/rossi-s3.htm

[jeff223]

i read your article junior and it was very good.im glad you worked things out.maybe sometime soon i can cast some boolits up for my 357max Contender.

[Leftoverdj]

Masterfully done, Junior.

I'm convinced that bullet is the best thing going in .357 carbines and worth all the trouble you went through.

As a fairly fearless tinkerer, I would have had to have taken a tad off those guides, though, and might have taken some off those Remington rims. I once had a batch of Musgrave .38 Special cases with rims too wide for my shellholder and my speedloaders. Reduced the diameter with a drill and a file, and they worked fine.

[Junior1942]

Thanks for the kind words, DJ. They mean something coming from you.

I'd like to see some pressure data with the C358-180-RF and Lil'Gun. If my 16.0 gr Lil'Gun load is only ~30k psi, as I suspect, I might have to trim the guides so I can seat the bullet out a little more. With the 1.555" COAL, 16.0 grs is about max the case will hold even compressed.

Obviously, my rifle doesn't like to feed bullets with big ol' meplats.