Lyman 4500 Sizing Off Center

[milrifle]

I'm still pretty new to casting and VERY new to lubrisizing. I recently got a Lyman 4500 and I'm trying to size some Lee C312-185-1R to .311. They are sizing off center. See photo below. The dark marks are not really there, just something that showed up in the photo. Look how it is sized much more on one side than the other. At first, I was using the set screw on the top punch, but read on here where many just let the top punch float and retain it with a little bullet lube. I tried that and still get off centered sizing. Then, I'm wondering how much this will affect accuracy? I just don't have a feel for it. No doubt is is not a good thing, but how bad is it? Is this something that will turn a 3/4" group into a 7/8" group or is it something that will turn a 3" group into an 8" group?

Then of course, what to do about it? I will admit that the top punch is not the one that is called for in the list posted on this site. It is the one for a 311299, but my bullet centers well in it. It just contacts around the edge, rather than at the point. Is this my problem? I'm thinking not, but I'm new to this.

62029

[kartooo]

did you buy it new ??
if so send it back !!! i have heard of occasional problems with lyman. sizers not sizing to spec,bullet molds dropping way too small or large. i bought a new 4500 recently and the the reservoir cover was missing and i found a bunch of metal shavings in the lube reservoir !! guess i got lucky as far as being nice and centered.....
hopefully some people on nere with more smarts than me will be able to help you out.

[462]

I'd suspect an out-of-round mould, before the 4500. Using a micrometer, make several careful measurements of a number of un-sized boolit diameters.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I can't tell anything from your photo's ???

But, the lyman 450 and 4500 are notorious for being not perfectly aligned.

If your top punch OD is near the size of your Die ID,
then you can see the amount of misalignment.
here is a link that will show the issue farily clearly...and it's a green lubesizer.
http://www.accuratemolds.com/topPunch.php

Yes, if that is the case, it will definantly affect accuracy.
There are several ways to solve the problem.
Jon

[milrifle]

I'll try to answer some questions and respond to comments.

Kartooo, Yes, I bought it new. I may indeed send it back if I can't find a workable solution, but hopefully, I can get it to work properly.

462, I will check some bullets when I get home, but I believe the problem is in the sizer. It does it in the same place every time, about 1:00 if viewed from the top. I would suspect an out of round bullet would size heavier on the two opposing sides with the greatest diameter and would be random as to the position in the sizer unless you always indexed the bullet the same way. This is doing it on just one side and is always in the same place in the sizer.

JonB, Look at the crimp groove. It is almost obliterated in the photo on the left. Same with the driving bands, but not as apparent. Both bullets are the same way. I just turned one so you could see the bad side and the other so you could see the good side.

So, any suggestions on how to fix? Also, any feel for how much this affects accuracy?

[milrifle]

Closer inspection of the sizer shows what I consider to be excessive clearance between the ram and the casting through which it slides. With the ram lowered until the top punch is just above the die, any sideways pressure on the lever results in a good bit of sideways movement of the top punch. Almost to the point of crashing into the die if you were to pull hard enough to one side. There is at least 1/32" of sideways movement in the top punch when lowered to the level of the die. I tried to call Lyman this afternoon and got a recording that their normal business hours were yada yada AM until 4:30 PM and to call back during regular business hours. All this at 4:15! Miller time must have came early today.:) Guess I'll call Monday and see what they say.

[altheating]

I bought a new 4500 last year. I sent it back, had the same problem, things just did not line up properly. I sent it back and they replaced it. Of course shipping it back was on my dime.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I hope Lyman can help you out !

[curator]

There is some play between the die body and the retaining collar that will allow the die to not line up with the top punch. When installing the sizing die you should not tighten the retaining collar until first putting a correctly sized bullet in the die, pushing it down most of the way with the top punch, then while holding it down, tighten the retainer. No lube-sizing press is perfectly aligned. Learning how to aligning your die with the top punch helps make concentrically sized bullets.

[milrifle]

Curator, thanks for that suggestion. I will try that out today. I did try rotating the die to different locations to see if the bad spot on the bullet moved. It did not. At least not much. The bad spot is always about 1:00 to 3:00.

[milrifle]

UPDATE: I got my 4500 back from Lyman. Seems they replaced a set screw.........You know, the one that retains the top punch and everyone says to leave loose? That is all they did and deemed it OK. That was a wasted $16 in shipping! I'll go mount it back to the bench and see if I can do anything with it. Maybe I'll size in the Lee and lube in the Lyman. I also had turned a pilotless top punch on my lathe prior to sending the 4500 back. I did not work with it enough to get it perfected, but maybe that is a route I can take. I see that some folks just use a flat top punch and let the bullet go off center, but my 30 cal bullets are round nose, so I don't know how well that will work. I'm afraid it will leave a little 'meplat' on the nose.

[selmerfan]

If you're REALLY obsessive about the concentrically sized boolits, there is a way that you can size them nose first, but you're basically doing the Lee push-though sizing, because you can't push them through nose first AND lube them on the 4500 in one pass. I've done hundreds of boolits this way, basically take everything out from under the sizing die, including the center push rod. Push your boolits through with a flat punch of the correct size for your caliber. Before doing this, lightly toss the boolits in a lube - light motor oil works well. Then assemble everything properly and lube them up. PITA, but worth the results. I'm going to have to try curators method of installing the sizing die - thanks curator!

[EDG]

Kind of typical of the half-assed customer service at Lyman. I sent an Autoscale back to be calibrated and it came back with the beam dragging on the housing same as it was when I sent it.



UPDATE: I got my 4500 back from Lyman. Seems they replaced a set screw.........You know, the one that retains the top punch and everyone says to leave loose? That is all they did and deemed it OK. That was a wasted $16 in shipping! I'll go mount it back to the bench and see if I can do anything with it. Maybe I'll size in the Lee and lube in the Lyman. I also had turned a pilotless top punch on my lathe prior to sending the 4500 back. I did not work with it enough to get it perfected, but maybe that is a route I can take. I see that some folks just use a flat top punch and let the bullet go off center, but my 30 cal bullets are round nose, so I don't know how well that will work. I'm afraid it will leave a little 'meplat' on the nose.

[GP100man]

I know it`s new but I used this stiky to align an older worn out 1 to perfect alignment.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?945-Remedy-for-Lyman-RCBS-Lube-sizer-alignment-issues