Lee Slug Load that doesn't suck

[Ironduke]

Howdy.

I have recently begun loading shot shells, and I am interested in the Lee slug since I am also new to casting. I chose the 1 oz slug, and i have been loading it according to Hodgdon's data with Universal. Accuracy is awful but I have some 20 ga nitro cards coming in the mail that should help with accuracy of these loads.

My real problem right now is how puny the load is. I put a couple over the chrony, and they only run around 1100 fps. This doesn't surprise me because recoil is mild. I looked at some other slug loads available on the market, and performance is substantially greater. For example, this brenneke load offering: http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/product/7-A1206825

1 1/4 oz at 1400+ fps! That is good compared to my 20% lighter slug at 300 fps less.

I am shooting from a mossberg 590A1, which easily handles the Brenneke loads. I understand that pressure in a gun is measured over time--a pressure curve. Brenneke surely meets the normal peak pressure of 12 ga loads, but they must also spread the pressure over a greater amount of time to get a heavier slug going significantly faster. I assume a slower powder is in use.

I am looking for a better load. I think the accuracy will be helped by the nitro cards, but what about velocity? How can I get some serious loads?

[jmort]

see below

[jmort]

Smoothbore and the Lee Precision 1 ounce key drive slug are not going to be tack drivers. Even at 1,100 fps that is still some serious medicine. Check out Ajay's thread for some load data. You can get more juice, but you need a rifled barrel to make that slug work real good.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?150140-VdoMemorie-Blazing-Sabot!

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello IronDuke,
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/LeeDriveKeysluginwadcopy.jpg
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/Leesluginwad.jpg
If you are using a smooth bore barrel then do this test before you load up a bunch only to find they are not very accurate.
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/Wadslugfitinbarrelcopy.jpg
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/LeeSlugDataBlueDot-Herco.jpg
With Blue Dot start around 40, 41 and 42 gr load.
With Herco start around 28, 29 , 30, 31 and 32 gr load.
With HS-6 most shooters stop around 32 to 33 gr so start at 30, 31 and at 32 be ready for the recoil!

Trust but verify and play it safe and be sure to wear good ear muff's, learn from my bad experience, I have not recovered from my hearing loss since Oct. 2012

I wish you all the very best and enjoy while you are at it!

Warmest regards,
Ajay
BlazingSabots@Gmail.com
Blazing Sabots, LLC
www.BlazingSabots.com
http://www.facebook.com/BlazingSabots?ref=hl
www.PreciousVideoMemories.com

[longbow]

I just got a Lee slug mould a little while ago and have not shot much with it yet. So far groups are not bad at about 4" to 6" at 50 yards. Not as good as round ball loads (which generally run about 3" to 4" at 50 yards) but not too bad either.

I loaded the Lee 1 oz. 12 ga. slug over 35 grs. IMR4756 in a Fiocchi clear hull using Pacific Versalite wads with a 16 ga. nitro card wad under the slug. Shot from smooth cylinder bore.

I based the load on an equal weight slug but of course you should verify safety before following my lead. I did not chronograph and would have to dig up the load recipe to get an estimate of velocity but it was not a light load.

What sort of accuracy are you getting?

A good place to start if you can get the correct components is to use the Lee recipes. Are you using ALL of the same components that Hodgdon lists?

Just in case you are not aware, shotgun reloading is not like metallic cartridge reloading. All the components work together in a given recipe and substitutions (particularly hull or primer) for a given recipe can raise or lower pressures rather dramatically. A simple primer substitution can affect pressure by 3000 PSI.

In any case, you may have to try a variety of wads and hulls to find a load your gun likes. Slug/wad fit to barrel is important as Ajay points out above.

Longbow

[35remington]

Want power? Use the 49 grains of Blue Dot load. I guarantee you'll never complain about that part of the equation again. Highest velocity will be obtained in the Remington case due to its smaller capacity. This is the most powerful load they have. The claim for slightly higher velocity with the same load in the Federal Gold Medal case is misleading, as it will not go as fast as the same load in the tapered Remington hull.

If you want real fun, try it in a lightweight single shot or pump without a recoil pad. You will be impressed, as it is more powerful than all the loads you list, including the Brenneke you linked to. You'll never bitch about needing a "serious load" ever again!

[Ironduke]

4-6 inch groups would be awesome compared to what I was getting. basically, all would hit a man-sized target, but not reliably in the chest area!

Reading these posts (thanks for all the input BTW) I see I was damaging my petals with my crimp without the nitro cards. The load I was using called for the Win 12R wad, but all I had were Win 12 so that is what i used. But those wads feature a taller buffer, the petals are thicker causing my hull to bulge a bit compromising feeding reliability, and without the nitro cards, the petals extend above the top of my slug. Now I see that the petals would be totally screwed up by the crimp. Who knows how they affect the release of the slug? It can't be good!!

Well now i have some 12R wads. I am loading them in tapered Win AA hulls, which I understand are similar to the Remington in construction.

I am shooting from a cylinder bore so i am wondering why I cannot take a hot load for 1 oz shot and just substitute the slug? Certainly 1 oz in front of the wad is the same as 1 oz in front of the wad, provided the bore doesn't try to constrict it, right? As far as the BlueDot, where do I find loads that feature a slug with it? Or do I substitute the slug for shot in a given load?


Thanks again.

[turmech]

The Blue dot data come with the slug mold. It also is on the lee website. Ajay has it posted in #4

"Certainly 1 oz in front of the wad is the same as 1 oz in front of the wad, provided the bore doesn't try to constrict it, right?"

I would supect you have lower velocity with the slug vs. the shot due to the shot will compress when fired the slug won't. This would give you more pressure and velocity.

[longbow]

a selection of loading manuals would be a big help because loading for shotguns can become frustrating when you cannot collect components for a specific recipe.

More reference provides more variety of recipes and not every publisher tests every load combinations so it takes a few manuals to be much good... also powder manufacturer's websites, Lee loading info, 'other" published loads (some slug manufacturers publish loads).

And yes, it is safe to replace an equal weight of shot with a slug. The Lee slug is designed to be able to squeeze through a choke so even that is not unsafe though accuracy may not be great. Those tend not to be the highest performing slug loads though.

Solid balls or slugs should not be shot through a choke unless they are smaller than the choke restriction.

Longbow

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Greetings, the Lee Slug mold is the cheapest you can get for $18 plus change from MidSouth, you can't most likely even get the HB pin for Lyman 525 slug.

Lee slug is a Bumble Bee, just as wide as it is long, if used in a smooth bore its like shooting a rock, with a little extra work you can help change the odds for smooth bore, if used from a rifled barrel then the Bumble Bee effect gets minimized by the rifling spin!
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/LeeDriveKeymodificationcopy.jpg
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/LeeHollowbasecopy.jpg
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/LeeDriveKeycopy.jpg
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/LeeMidification.jpg
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/FinalLeeModification.jpg
The best news is that those HB pins are only $1 ande in this perticular case its $1.50 from Lee.
I buy extra pins for all my molds and have fun changing the odds!

Here is yet another example as to how a nitro cards can change odds:
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/Bulletbasetoobigcopy.jpg
The slug would not fit in the wad and now see by just adding a nitro card its a perfect fit!
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/WithNitrocardfitsok.jpg
Here is another little trick to help release the slug faster:
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/Holeinwad.jpg
If you do not add the nitro card support it tends to bind a bit and delays thew releasing process!
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/1220GaCommodorecopy.jpg

I wish you all the very best and enjoy while you are at it!

Warmest regards,
Ajay
BlazingSabots@Gmail.com
Blazing Sabots, LLC
www.BlazingSabots.com
http://www.facebook.com/BlazingSabots?ref=hl
www.PreciousVideoMemories.com

[TRG3]

Ironduke...While I eventually found the .690 roundball to be a superior "slug" out of my 12 gauge H&R Ultra Slug Hunter, I used both the Lee Key Drive and Lyman 525 projectiles before I got there. I was getting 3-4" groups off the bench with the following load for the soft lead Lee Key Drive slug:

Fiocchi 2 3/4" new hull
34.0 grains Herco powder
Thin over powder card
Federal S4 brown wad (1/8" petal removed to improve roll crimp)
20 gauge .125 hard card in bottom of S4 wad on which the slug rested
Roll crimped

Even with my heavier USH, this load was a "thumper" for the shooter, so I can imagine that in a lighter shotgun it would get your attention so should be used at the shooter's discretion. That being said, it proved to be a good deer load and took several. As I recall, I did get better groups with soft lead vs. hard lead slugs. Of course, YMMV.

[Ironduke]

WOW! That's a lot of information. Thanks guys.

[mojomandan]

Hello IronDuke,
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/LeeDriveKeysluginwadcopy.jpg
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/Leesluginwad.jpg
If you are using a smooth bore barrel then do this test before you load up a bunch only to find they are not very accurate.
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/Wadslugfitinbarrelcopy.jpg
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/LeeSlugDataBlueDot-Herco.jpg

Warmest regards,
Ajay
BlazingSabots@Gmail.com
Blazing Sabots, LLC
www.BlazingSabots.com
http://www.facebook.com/BlazingSabots?ref=hl
www.PreciousVideoMemories.com

Hi Ajay,

Really great tips there. I am a newb to casting and have a few questions:

1. You have a lot of wads in the pictures. Which ones are they (manufacturer and part number)? I can see they are different, but I don't know how to find them to buy them.
2. How did you remove the hollow base plug? I just got my mold, but don't know how to remove this plug for trimming.
3. What about simply filling in the hollow base plug (the part that makes the "key") to effectively create a hollow slug without the middle "key". What do you think of that, and what can I fill it with that will withstand the molten lead?

Thank you!

[Mike0904]

I still have my Lee mold somewhere... looks like I got some more work to do......Thanks alot Ajay !! :killingpc

[mojomandan]

Hi Ajay,

Really great tips there. I am a newb to casting and have a few questions:

1. You have a lot of wads in the pictures. Which ones are they (manufacturer and part number)? I can see they are different, but I don't know how to find them to buy them.
2. How did you remove the hollow base plug? I just got my mold, but don't know how to remove this plug for trimming.
3. What about simply filling in the hollow base plug (the part that makes the "key") to effectively create a hollow slug without the middle "key". What do you think of that, and what can I fill it with that will withstand the molten lead?

Thank you!

Can anyone offer me assistance with my questions?

[mojomandan]

Hi Ajay,

Really great tips there. I am a newb to casting and have a few questions:

1. You have a lot of wads in the pictures. Which ones are they (manufacturer and part number)? I can see they are different, but I don't know how to find them to buy them.
2. How did you remove the hollow base plug? I just got my mold, but don't know how to remove this plug for trimming.
3. What about simply filling in the hollow base plug (the part that makes the "key") to effectively create a hollow slug without the middle "key". What do you think of that, and what can I fill it with that will withstand the molten lead?

Thank you!

Can anyone offer me assistance with my questions?

[longbow]

mojomandan:

I can probably help with one of your questions anyway... except I have to ask a question:

Why would you want to remove the "key" from the slug? The key is there for a couple of reasons but mostly so the wads do not get jammed up the slug's butt, which is a common problem with hollow base slugs.

As for wad fit, I can't answer which wads Ajay shows other than generalities ~ he shows some Winchester (or Win clones), some Federal but I do not know which #'s, Hornady and some BPI I think. Brand doesn't matter too much but fit does. You have to try the slug in the wad in the bore of your gun. For a smoothbore you want a not too tight sliding fit. I find that an easy sliding fit gives me best results regardless of wad.

To qualify, I have not done much shooting with the Lee but first time out with a Lee 1 oz. in Winchester wads with a nitro card wad under the slug, I had nice fit and got 6+ groups at 50 yards. The same slug with added skirt Brenneke style was more like 4" groups at 50 yards.

Generally I have had good results using Winchester wads and Pacific Veralite (now Hornady) wads. Some say the Claybuster (win clones) do not work well with slugs. This is with smoothbore. If you are using a rifled gun then things are a bit different.

Back to the "drive key" ~ another reason it is there is so the wad grabs the key to provide a positive spin for rifled gun. Best to leave the key in my opinion. Even for smoothbore, the key adds skirt support and keep wads where they belong, which is behind the slug not in it.

Longbow

[Mike0904]

I've had good results when the hollow is filled with bore butter...tried candle wax but but not sure if it is better or not.
I do want to try a lengthened skirt with and without the bore butter and wax. I am using my slugs for competition not
hunting so I need sub 3" groups at 50yds

[mojomandan]

Hi Longbow,

I want to remove the key because I have a smooth bore barrel, and I have read reports that when the key grabs the wad, it can often cause the slug to veer off after exiting the barrel since there is no spin to stabilize it.

I also thought about removing the key because its presence adds weight to the rear of the slug, which can destabilize it. For example, Federal's Truball is a hollow slug with most weight up front to keep it from tumbling in flight.

I am totally new to this, but these are the things I have read.

[longbow]

mojomandan:

I have done a lot of shooting with smoothbore and hollow base slugs and in my experience, most hollow base slugs collapse at least to some degree at firing and wads tend to get jammed up their butts. The Lee Drive Key is there both to prevent wads being driven up the slug's butt and also to support the skirt. In rifled guns the idea is that the wad helps rotate the slug as well.

If you are worried about wads grabbing it then use a nitro card wad or two under the slug. You should do that with any hollow base slug... or at least any I have tried perform better with a solid base under them. Plastic wads don't cut it.

Even with that key the Lee Slugs are nose heavy and should do okay.

Longbow

[Mike0904]

I want to here about how the Lee shoots with the added skirt.......com'on Ajay, how bout it Longbow?

[longbow]

I have only shot a few so far and they actually did better than the plain Lee slug but too few shot to draw any conclusions. The plain Lee gave about 6" groups at 50 yards and the Lee + skirt ran about 4" groups. Recovered slugs showed slightly uneven skirts as my skirt mould didn't fit was well as I had hoped due to the taper of the Lee slug. That has been rectified for this test so we will see how they do.

I have a bunch more loaded up and hope to test this weekend. I will post results after shooting.

Longbow

[FullTang]

Can anyone offer me assistance with my questions?

Hi Mojo,
I'll take a shot at your questions:
1. referring to pic from 02-21-2013, 06:49 PM post, in the top row, the wads pictured are Winchester WAA12SL (pink wad), Federal 12S0, Versalite (red), Federal 12S4 (the brown one), Win WAA12 (white), I believe that's the DownRange version of the WAA12 F114 wad (could be the old original, not sure), Trap Commander by Baschieri & Pellagri (Italian), Federal 12S3, old Federal 12C1 (long out of production, but still a great wad!); then 2 more Trap Commanders. Many of these can be obtained here: http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Trap-Commander-12ga-wad-250_bag/productinfo/020Z21/ or here: http://www.precisionreloading.com/mm5/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=PRE&Category_Code=WADS and a number of other online merchants, though genuine Winchester wads are hard to find these days, and the common Claybuster clones are no good for slugs---they have ridges inside the shot petals that mess everything up.
2. you can buy spare core pins from Lee and some web sites; the pin can be punched out of the mold to work on it/modify it
3. High Temp silicone or epoxy (check automotive stores) should be able to stand the temps, but I agree with longbow that it's probably not worthwhile (though I fully support your wildcatting!)

FullTang

[longbow]

Well, I guess I have to ask the same question now ~ Who's got a Lee slug load that doesn't suck!

I loaded up some more Lee Drive key slugs as cast and also with glue skirts and all shot poorly today. BAH! I thought I was onto something there especially with the glue skirt.

I will post all my results on the other thread I have going.

The short story here is that I did get good results last time and poor results this time. My load was lighter this time which may be part of it and I changed to Winchester wads which seem to have a very nice fit but... accuracy did in fact suck. And not just Lee slugs this time but several others too! Back to the drawing board!

Longbow

[FullTang]

Hi Longbow,
I've found one I really like, especially for my Benelli Nova Tactical (smoothbore, 18.5" cylinder), so that may interest you in particular. Fiocchi hull, Fio 616 primer, 20 grains of Alliant e3, PT1215 wad with 18 ga 0.125" card under. I've loaded the 1 oz and 7/8 oz Lee slugs with this recipe, and both work well. In fact, they both run around the same velocity---about 1300 fps from the short barrel. When I tried these in my H&R Tracker II, I actually got some pressure signs, even though this is a published load (for shot anyway.) I think the petals on the PT1215 wads are too thick, and the fit at the forcing cone of the Tracker caused a pressure spike; they were consistently hard to extract, so I've reserved these for my Benelli, which is rated for 3.5" ultra-mags, so no problem with pressures there. In the Benelli, this load is unbelievably accurate, at least in the 25-50 yard range (I don't usually try the smoothbore at longer ranges) and the rounds really pop. Every shot goes exactly where the front sight dot is pointing; never had that experience with any other slug load. I think the fast burning powder works well here, and it burns very consistently. The tight fit with the thick wad also seems to help accuracy in the un-rifled barrel. So, this one may not work for everyone, and may even be dangerous for some, but it's outstanding in my Benelli. For the rifled barrel, I use the same load with a Federal 12S0 wad and no card; these are found downrange at about 20 yards in beautiful shape, with all the petals intact and a nice Drive Key imprint. They almost look like they could be reloaded! Accuracy is quite good at 100 yards; about 5-6 inch groups, which is fine for me.

[mojomandan]

Longbow and FullTang,

Many thanks for your input. I am still on that steep learning curve, so all of this info is great.

[Mike0904]

Since the beginning of this year I was testing the Lee slug and concur the load "TRG3" found
as his best though I used 20grns of reddot it was not "too" hot. It was needed to cycle my auto loader. The Fed 12S4 was the only wad to give me any kind of accuracy, that with filling the hollow base with Bore butter, the candle wax I believe stayed with the slug and caused it to get unbalanced but BB is soft and would roll off easy.
Still havent found the accuracy I need, want, must have :target_smiley:

Oh and I am back on this trail I am casting some originals and then I will be lathe cutting a skirt
and trying those. With and without BB. Oh and yes I use the .125 20ga card wad under slug.