Anyone used Belt Mountain Base Pins?

[shooting on a shoestring]

My Blackhawk has worn the retaining collar on the cross pin that locks the base pin in place. The result is, it spits out the base pin under heavy recoil. I believe the wear will continue until it will happen under medium recoil also. I've heard of the Belt Mountain pin kits, seen them on Midway's site. I see they advertise a pin O.D. of 0.2495". My pin is 0.2460. My cylinder I.D. is 0.2505. The Belt Mountain pin would have only 0.001" clearance. Sounds to tight to me. Is it?

Also can the cylinder be removed as easily as with the standard pin assembly? I see the advertisement mentions an allen head set screw, so I wonder if an allen wrench is needed to remove the cylinder. Anyone know?

[targetshootr]

I'd get the kind with a slotted screw head. The ones with allen head screws are the worst because an allen wrench is never around and they're prone to rounding off. Or maybe get an old locking base pin latch (http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b233/targetshootr/IM004835.jpg) installed.

[RSOJim]

Gun parts corporation sells the ruger cross pin that pings down under heavy recoil and lets the cylinder pin slide forward. I just ordered 6 for me and my buddies that shoot heavy loads in our rugers. After replacing these pins ( or bolts ) problem solved for a while without using the belt mountail base pin. I think they were about 2 dollars each.

[Bass Ackward]

My Blackhawk has worn the retaining collar on the cross pin that locks the base pin in place. The result is, it spits out the base pin under heavy recoil.

I believe the wear will continue until it will happen under medium recoil also. The Belt Mountain pin would have only 0.001" clearance. Sounds to tight to me. Is it?




Too tight a base pin? Yea. Could be. The secret to getting what you need is proper diagnosis.

The alignment of the chambers in the cylinder are the key. If one or more are out of alignment in an up or down direction, that bullet is going to force it's way in somehow. This puts pressure on the frame, the pin and the forcing cone until these wear in harmony. This is called break-in.

So a tighter pin, while appearing to be desirable, may not be the best for the gun. A tighter pin may just require the break in process to start all over again. So you can have a handgun too tight if alignment isn't good. That's why end play removal helps as it holds the distance from the cylinder back and constant so that the bullet can take the least or easiest angle to enter the barrel.

If the retaining pin and collar are worn, why not replace them? @$3.00 Usually it is a combination of the retainer and the notch in the pin. Especially if you are a big cleaner. So I would replace both with stock parts if it were me and try that first. Because the problem may not be cured with just those parts anyway if the wear occurred in the frame.

In this case, the larger pin would help restore good retainer contact and cylinder alignment.

[AlaskaMike]

I got a Belt Mountain base pin for my 50th anniversary .44 flattop, and I'm very happy with it. I got the one with the allen screw. The fit is very snug, and I just put a very light film of oil on the pin and it went in fine. This was a new gun, so it wasn't worn but I did have the stock pin pop out about a quarter inch a couple of times with heavy loads. I wanted something that would take care of the problem for good.

I don't have a problem with the allen screw--I've got a ton of them on my RCBS dies anyway, so I just put the wrench that came with the base pin into my cleaning kit, and it'll always be there when I need it.

Mike

[Shuz]

I installed a Base Mtn pin on my Ruger KS458N. It's the one with the Allen screw. I'm very satisfied with this product. I keep the very small Allen wrench in an old yellow plastic Speer bullet box so I don't loose it. The box also has spare EAR plugs, and my eye patch for covering my dominant eye, so it's always available in my shooting box.

[Char-Gar]

I have Belt Mountain pins in a half dozen of my SA sixguns and am happy with them. Most are a drop/slide in fit, but a couple have required a little fitting.

[Don 3]

I use one on my blackhawk .41 mag. The factory basepin started to come out under heavy loads, every thing is good now.

[Lloyd Smale]

I use them in just about all of my rugers. Mostly because they lock the pin in place. I cant say that ive seen improvements in accuracy using them but i can also say ive never seen a gun shoot worse with one in it. Like was said about half the time they need fitting but its easy enough to do.

[44man]

I am going on 57,700 heavy rounds out of my SBH plus untold rounds out of all the other BH's I have owned. I have never had a pin move foreward. I use 320 and 330 gr boolits with 296.
A lack of lube is the only way to wear out things. None of my guns ever showed wear. Gun oil alone is not enough on those parts. A lot of guys just leave them dry. Friends bring out revolvers with dry ratchets and pins. I holler at them but they are too cheap to buy a pint of STP that will last a lifetime but spend over $2000 for a gun.
RCBS case lube also works.
Since I have been posting about STP, how many of you have tried it? None of my friends have bought any in the last 30 years! The cheapest insurance on earth. I am baffled! Maybe it is too cheap and I should package it for $10 an ounce.
Sorry guys, I have to vent once in a while. My friends are anal about changing oil in their cars way more times then needed but shoot dry guns. If I asked if they ever oiled the door hinges, I would get a stupid look.
Don't forget, double action revolvers need lube too.

[45r]

I've had good luck with FP-10 and Tetre gun oil.My marlin 357 levergun cycles like it's on roller bearings with the FP-10 and it works great on 1911's also.I always put a drop or two on my ratchets and base pin and never had the problems with them coming out.I clean and oil my guns every time after they get shot.I might be too fussy but I like knowing my gun is clean and well oiled when I start using it.

[Bass Ackward]

Since I have been posting about STP, how many of you have tried it? None of my friends have bought any in the last 30 years! The cheapest insurance on earth. I am baffled! Maybe it is too cheap and I should package it for $10 an ounce.


Jim,

Yea, I tried it. I suppose it would work OK, but there is stuff considerably better for year round use. Cause at 10 degrees, double action is like 30# or some ridiculous amount. Cocking single action will give you timing problems.

Depending on how tight a gun is can be academic. They can be too tight in some places while lose in others. Break-in is a merciless, "correct it regardless" proceedure. And if you have a Ruger double action, dis-assembly of the crane assy by one individual qualifies you as a contortionist. But correct interval cleaning (determined more by how much you shoot) utilizing a good lube is essential or premature wear results in increased end play.

Most revolvers count on the assist of the cylinder stop itself coming up in the notch to contribute to and continue the final rotation effort until it engages. That's why ultra slow cocking can be a detriment. So the higher this is, the more spring tension it will have and the more it can contribute. That's why this area is usually not polished either so as to avoid metal to metal. In my case, this area is why I needed to replace the original. So it helps to lube here too if you know you are going to be shooting often. Or in your case shooting 5lb shells. :grin:

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive owned probably 50 or more ruger single actions over the years and no the importance of keeping them oiled but have to say that about half the rugers i had in hard kicking calibers would have base pin jumps right out of the box and out of the ones that didnt most would start after 5000 or so rounds. Ive even have had 32 mags that the pin jumped. Anymore when i buy a new one i just order a pin for it.

[44man]

It must happen more then I think it does because I have read about the problem forever, I just never had it happen and never had to work on one.
My question is; Is it the base pin latch that is the problem or the pin itself?
If the latch does not engage the pin properly, does changing the pin correct it?

Bass, I know there are all kinds of good lubes that work fine and I can see STP getting stiff in real cold weather too although I have hunted in bitter cold Ohio weather without a problem.
I like it because it hangs onto the metal good and keeps crud from binding the pin. I can shoot my cap and ball all day without a bind. If I use gun oil I have to clean the hole and pin often.
Plus, it is cheap!
I like what you say about my 5# shells, have to remember that one.

[Lloyd Smale]

I think its mostly a tolerance problem between the way the frame is drilled and this pin size. The heavy duty latch springs will take care of it for the most part but i figure what the hell might as well by the pin and tighten it up a touch and Kelly makes some neat designs that dress up a gun.
It must happen more then I think it does because I have read about the problem forever, I just never had it happen and never had to work on one.
My question is; Is it the base pin latch that is the problem or the pin itself?
If the latch does not engage the pin properly, does changing the pin correct it?

Bass, I know there are all kinds of good lubes that work fine and I can see STP getting stiff in real cold weather too although I have hunted in bitter cold Ohio weather without a problem.
I like it because it hangs onto the metal good and keeps crud from binding the pin. I can shoot my cap and ball all day without a bind. If I use gun oil I have to clean the hole and pin often.
Plus, it is cheap!
I like what you say about my 5# shells, have to remember that one.

[BruceB]

We only have one Ruger single-action at this time, it being a late-'60s Old Model Super Blackhawk. It's been used intensively and fired many thousands of rounds before the base pin started giving trouble. In this case, the end of the rounded notch for the cross-pin became peened-over, allowing the basepin to slide forward under recoil.

The Belt Mountain pin, the one with the tiny allen screw, installed very easily and solved the problem immediately. The fit of the cylinder was considerably improved, with less "wiggle". Once I'd tightened the allen screw the first time, I then removed the BM pin and drilled a fairly-shallow blind hole at the mark made by the screw. This allows the screw to seat into the barrel steel a couple of turns, and is MUCH more secure. I then degreased the area and used blue Loctite to secure the screw. The pin doesn't move! I mounted an allen key inside the grips in case it's ever needed in the field. Based on forty years with the SBH, I doubt that it will be, but....?

[44man]

Bruce, I can understand the wear thing, what has always confused my is that some new guns or ones not shot much still have pins move out. It's something I have never seen personally.
Both my BFR's have screws to hold them in.

[Lloyd Smale]

thats one thing i didnt like about the bfr i had. It had a locking pin but no crosspin. I like to leave my pins unlocked when at the bench so that if dissasembly is needed a guy doesnt have to bother with the lock pin. Did i get an odd one or do none of them have a cross pin.
Bruce, I can understand the wear thing, what has always confused my is that some new guns or ones not shot much still have pins move out. It's something I have never seen personally.
Both my BFR's have screws to hold them in.

[44man]

Mine do not have any pins. They have a screw in the bottom of the cylinder pin that goes into a hole in the bottom of the barrel just like the Freedom guns. It is a slotted screw. I don't know what the early guns were like but have read things about them. It seems as if there has been a steady improvement to now, they did not keep making the same problems over and over. I guess they had some teething problems. Now I consider them equal to any custom gun as far as accuracy. They may not be as pretty, but I can't afford pretty.

[shooting on a shoestring]

I think my Blackhawk's retaining pin is not fully engaging the base pin's slot. The shoulder on the retaining pin shows several peened areas on the leading edge. By lining up the most peened area with a bit of a notch on the shoulder of the base pin groove, I can slip the base pin. If I rotate the retaining pin to an area with a sharp edge engaging the base pin groove, the pin stays put.

I believe the retaining pin should be engaging with more than it's leading edge. Life is too busy for the next several days, but when I get some time, I'll do some exploratory measuring and see if there is a possibility of getting the retaining pin to fully engage the base pin by some judicious metal removal.

I really don't like the idea a locking base pin. The last trip to the range Saturday, I fired only 200 rounds but had the cylinder out 5 times. I've just got to look at the forcing cone when working up loads to check for leading. I've got to look at loads I have worked up just to see if they are still shooting clean. A locking pin sounds like it would cramp my style.

[RSOJim]

Hi guys, everyone here is right. Some of the rugers frames were not drilled deep enough for the retaining pin to engage the cylinder base pin slot enough to keep the cylinder base pin from jumping forward. I removed the point from a drill bit, can't remember what size now, and deepened that part of the frame. The hole in the frame is beveled. I removed the bevel, thats all. This lets the cross pin engage the cylinder base pin deeper. I went one hundred thousands according to my depth mic. Your numbers could vary. I did 3 rugers all the same way. I installed new cross pins in 2 of the guns. The third, I chucked the cross pin up in my drill press and with a small file I turned the peened section off. Looks like about 3/32". I didn't measure. I am using that one in my custom 5 1/2" super. The cylinder base pin is staying in so far. I will not recommend anyone else try this with out knowing some depth numbers. You could ruin a ruger frame real quick. Anyone trying this, do at your own risk.

[shooting on a shoestring]

Well I just took my BH apart, removed the ejector rod housing, cylinder, base pin, and took a good look at the retaining pin seated in place. My retaining pin's leading edge is dead center in the bottom of the base pin hole when viewed from the barrel end. I had supposed the leading edge would have gone more than half way across the opening. The leading edge of the retaining pin now looks like a watch gear with about 20 teeth around its circumference. I looked to see about drilling the seat deeper to move the retaining pin farther in, but there appears to be only about 1/16" of metal left before the hole would be completely through the frame. Also, on the nut side of the retaining pin, the nut has worn an oblong hole in the frame. The entire retaining pin wobbles up and down and all around. There's 0.009" clearance between the O.D. of the retaining pin and the ID of its hole on the slotted side of the pin. The groove of the base pin also has a worn off edge where it contacts the retaining pin.

I think I'll order a Belt Mountain set up tomorrow.

I'm getting disappointed in this Blackhawk. This is the gun that broke the aluminum grip frame a couple of months ago. I bought a SP101 about 3 months after I bought this Blackhawk, and the SP101 has over 2 times the round count and not a single problem.

[S.R.Custom]

...I have never had a pin move foreward. I use 320 and 330 gr boolits with 296.
A lack of lube is the only way to wear out things. None of my guns ever showed wear. Gun oil alone is not enough on those parts.... Since I have been posting about STP, how many of you have tried it? ...

A little late in joining the conversation, but I can't help but to jump in...

I've had a number of BHs and SBHs over the years, and I too have never had a base pin pull out. BUT... I've had several where the cross pin would not pop back out and engage the base pin if the base pin was not put in absolutely straight... Something to watch for-- make sure that cross pin pops out.

As for STP... Actually, I've gone one better than that-- motorcycle chain lube. Like the stuff by PJ1 or Bel Ray. Thick, sticky & tenacious as all get out. It comes in a spray can, and with the little red tube you stick in the nozzle you can finesse just a dribble in the cylinder hole. It's the most wonderful thing for base pins in Rugers and cranes in Smiths--it's so thick it takes out all the perceptible slop in a standard pin. Just don't get any in the action! Talk about slooooow motion!

[44man]

Now that sounds good, I will have to get some. Need some for the wife's bike anyway, she let her chain rust and it kept jumping the sprocket. Had to use Kroil on it.
I get pretty liberal with STP and some gets in the action, never hurt a thing even when cold out. I get lazy and put a gob in the end of the cylinder instead of just lubing the pin. That pushes it back under the transfer bar.
I wouldn't do that if it got bitter cold here.