Had an idea...

[Tristan]

perhaps an odd idea.

On another forum, the old idea of turning a HB Wadcutter backwards was mentioned. I've read of this before, as a 'close up and personal' loading for short barrelled revolvers.

I made a dummy up, and found something out. That .358" HB portion can't be sticking very far out of the case, or it has trouble seating due to being a force fit in the chamber throat.

Now, here's my idea: How about a simple swage die, to form an small ogive on the HB portion of the WC? Made to fit in a standard press, adjustable by simply screwing down to the proper depth and testing, using a flat-topped insert instead of the shell holder; with perhaps a small hole in the center of the swage die to use a pin to pop out the newly formed super-HP bullet...

It would make quite a expanding bullet, don't you think?

Wonder how much something like that would cost to have made?

- Tristan

[Ricochet]

I think you can experiment with seating it with seating plugs for round nose or truncated cone sorts of bullets that might work, if you're not letting too much protrude from the case.

As for the "up close and personal" part, I'd have thought they'd become unstable and tumble very quickly until seeing the bullets made for rifles with large hollow point cavities just like this. Posted some months back upstairs either in "Cast Boolits" or possibly in "Mould Designs." Those things reportedly shot pretty well. Whe you spin bullets with rifling, their dynamics change from the expected, and they do better with the center of mass toward the rear. Note how all the target jacketed bullets now have hollow points that actually have rather long empty cavities in the nose of the jacket.

I remember reading a lot of tests of these backward hollow base .38 wadcutters shot through things like Duxseal and Fels Naphtha laundry soap bars back in the .60s and '70s. Blew big holes at low velocities. They were supposed to be the thing for .38 snubbies. Now some liability lawyer probably would get into your pockets for cooking up "cruel and unusual" ammo to cause his client undue pain and suffering.

[leftiye]

Funny, it's cheaper to make 'em dead than cruel and unusual....

[454PB]

Years ago I did exactly what you describe, and the result was a very nasty and effective boolit.

Wouldn't it be easier to simply size the HBWC down .001" so that it fits the throat?

[Tristan]

Years ago I did exactly what you describe, and the result was a very nasty and effective boolit.

Wouldn't it be easier to simply size the HBWC down .001" so that it fits the throat?



I said it was an idea, but I didn't say it was necessarily a *good* idea! [smilie=1:

I was just thinking about how the dead-soft lead in the HBWC's would expand easily and rapidly, and with that gaping hole, would be (perhaps) incredibly effective, but the HBWC's have to be seated very deep into the case, restricting the airspace which could drive pressures up... and so came up with the idea of forming an ogive on the little beast, which would allow it to be seated further out, etc. etc.


ETA: I need to either learn how to run a lathe, or make friends with a Machinist.

[Buckshot]

I said it was an idea, but I didn't say it was necessarily a *good* idea! [smilie=1:
I need to either learn how to run a lathe, or make friends with a Machinist.

.............It's been done, and long before you or I thought of it or did it.

http://www.fototime.com/069CB1A7DC6AF34/standard.jpg

Made a swage die to make SWC's and WC's from most any other lead boolit. See #4 for the inverted one.

http://www.fototime.com/DC4CBD73B8E232A/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/F6696E3245BE49B/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/FF78011EFE76A09/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/86928C1813B4A70/standard.jpg

http://www.fototime.com/7CA2B3C3EC5D49E/standard.jpg

You can buy a 7x10 or 7x12" lathe for about $500 and tool it up for the basics for another hundred. Or for about a grand a much more capable 9x20 machine. The 7" one will do most the die work you mention.

...................Buckshot

[ian27]

Thought you might like to see these, I bought some for a .455 Webley MKVI. The 2nd, 3rd and 4th boolits are hollow base hollow nose. They are really soft, and believe it or not really accurate out of my friends Webley WG.

Ian

[Swagerman]

What do you mean they can't stick out very far???

These .38 special HB Hornady turned backward have gas checks on their front ends that now go into the cartridge case.

Tested went through 3 wet 2X4s, trash filled 55 gallon barrel and into dirt bank. The entry hole in wood was minor, the exit hole was about 4 inches.

Jim



http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e321/44and45/P6230031BrightendR.jpg

[Nueces]

Tristan,

Go to www.ch4d.com and select bullet, 101 bullet swaging dies from the menu at left.

These are ogive dies for pistol calibers, for use in standard 7/8 x 14 thread presses. Years ago, I used them in 357 caliber to form ogives on reversed HBWCs. Worked fine. The tapered cavity often ended up more or less straight. The swaging process can be used to incorporate a gas check on the base, if you want to try that. I found a hollow-point nose punch useful to keep the cavity from closing up during swaging.

And, as another member here has mentioned, these dies may be used to rehabilitate grungy CBs. Flaws are squished to nada. Lube first so that grooves are not collapsed.

Die parts are also available. You can get additional core seating punches and customize them, to make slugs like those above, for the .455. I found swaging to be too much labor for large quantities, but perfect and flexible for specialty slugs.

HTHs, Mark

[Buckshot]

Thought you might like to see these, I bought some for a .455 Webley MKVI. The 2nd, 3rd and 4th boolits are hollow base hollow nose. They are really soft, and believe it or not really accurate out of my friends Webley WG.

Ian

...........I made a swage die setup for I think it was 45 2.1, to create the same HP-HB "Man Stopper" design.

..............Buckshot

[Johnch]

I shoot with a local Judge ..............Err he just retired

But his advice
Never use reloads for self defence unless you run out of all ather ammo

Buy the nastyest factory ammo you want
Shoot them in the front and don't lie about the fact you feared for your life


His reason to not use reloads
Some slick lawer will claim you loaded the "KILLER" ammo just to kill
Or a gung ho prosecuting atorney , that wants to be a big shot will have you arested on a trumped up charge that you planed to kill the fool

John

[waksupi]

I'd asked one of our local judges about it. He said woud be a non-issue in the local courts, as many shooters in this area are reloaders, and it would be expected to have a reload in a firearm. On the other hand, if someone had a "killer" bullet, he would be more suspect of intent to cause grievious injury. So, guess it may depend on your area and local traditions.

[Bret4207]

We hashed this out on Sixgunner.com before it went mamaries up. There's no case anyone can find where this was an issue. Certain writers make a living off this type of stuff. Do as you wish, but there will be so much other crap to go with the shooting that the ammo will be the least of your worries....

[leftiye]

Tristan, Size 'em down until they're small enough to go into your chamber throats and then you can seat them any way you want ala Swagerman. As Rick 'Oshay said a slight roundind of the hollow base "mouth" could be induced with an over size (.45 cal.) seating punch if desired.

[OeldeWolf]

I have a good friend who used to be a gunsmitj\h and a dealer. He once had to shoot a man who was byurglarizing his store area. His defense attorney told him that it was a good thing that he had not used reloads to shoot the thief with. Now this was in CA, the land of the fruits and nuts, and probablky 15 years ago. YMMV

btw: the DA charged him, and the jury acquitted him. But it still cost him a bundle for legal fees.

[exblaster]

I don't have a problem beveling a hollow base wc if i size it base up and use a top punch for a more pointed bullet.
Exblaster