Annealed revolver brass

[44man]

As all of you know, I delight in proving some things don't work good. I took some brass and gently annealed the mouths to just get a little color change. I then tried all sorts of things from changing alloys, loads, primers, lubes, you name it. I ran myself out of boolits and powder. I now have a whole pile of targets and every one is the same. these are representative of all of them.
I then took 5 that were not annealed and shot them. That is the right target. Not my best but this gun hates sandbags.
I have done this before with other calibers with even worse results but figured the 45-70 could handle it better. Not so!
Now I am going to go the other way and find a neck size die and make an expander that only puts a little flare without expanding the mouth.

[44man]

I just ordered a Lyman neck size die for the 45-70. The case is hard to get good neck tension with because of the taper. Even when sized and barely expanded, good boolit pull is hard to get so I get all kinds of variations in groups from very small to average. Annealing just made all loads and boolits shoot the same size groups but none are small.
Hopefully, tightening up case tension will improve consistancy. I will post after I try it.

[Bass Ackward]

44,

You .... need to look at what problem you are trying to solve. In this case, you were creating a problem where one didn't exist judging by the groups. And from my tests, the amount of anneal improves accuracy up to a certain anneal level, then you start to lose neck tension.

The time that case anneal improves accuracy the most for me is 1. when using lower powered loads. And 2. using calibers where case thickness is heavier. I doubt that was true in either case here.

And after doing my alignment work, I am not sure that the improvement wasn't coming from a better bell, less bullet deformation and a more even crimp to improve alignment. But what ever it solved, it did as accuracy improved.

[44man]

Bass, the 45-70 case seems to be a special case in the revolver. It just doesn't have enough consistant neck tension to start with due to the thin necks and taper. I go from 9/16" to 1-1/4" at 50 depending on the group of cases I am using. By annealing, all groups opened up. I do not like the left groups at all. One batch of cases was barely heated and a second batch was heated a little more so I could compare. Neither gives me the tight groups I want and harder brass tightens groups a lot. I was hoping for consistancy and tight groups.
All in all, none of the 45-70 brass will activate my seating pressure measuring tool. I think the use of the neck sizing die, minimal expansion, if any and a slight flare combined with a seating pressure measurement should tighten groups more.
If you would be happy with the large groups on the left, well, I don't know what to say! I am looking for 1/2" at 50 with all of my brass.
I am going to take the annealed stuff and run each into the size die and expander at least 10 times each to harden them. I won't waste any more lead with them.

[Bass Ackward]

[QUOTE=44man;207639]All in all, none of the 45-70 brass will activate my seating pressure measuring tool. I think the use of the neck sizing die, minimal expansion, if any and a slight flare combined with a seating pressure measurement should tighten groups more. QUOTE]


44,

That's what I said. 45-70 brass is usually so thin that you would never need to anneal unless you had a problem with splitting the necks. That's what makes that cartridge so good for reloading across the entire velocity spectrum. Same with the 45 Colt. Thin brass is very hard to anneal lightly.

How light is light when referring to anneal? Even on my 44s that I was loading at 44 Spec pressures, there was accuracy improvement up to 8 seconds of heat at the pressure level I was using. But to let you understand what that meant, there was no color change what so ever in my brass. From the appearance, you couldn't tell them from once fired brass. Even after annealing for four and five times, you would have trouble finding any color change.

If your 45-70s changed color, chances are you are way to lose / soft. I seriously doubt that even 10 sizings is going to bring them back.

[August]

When I was young and poor, I used to anneal the two hundred cases that constituted my magazine.

There is not enough time in the world to spend it on annealling revolver brass IMHO.

Long range rifle, that's a different story.

[44man]

I only have a slight color change and it was done for my BPCR. I figured it was time to see what happened with the revolver. I still want to see if they will harden again. No loss because I have newer Starline for the Black powder rifle. These were old Federal cases. Good stuff but you can't buy them anymore.

[Jim]

44,
Have you tried a Lee Factory Crimp die for .45-70? I use one on every round I make and get really good results. I loaded some rounds for a friend with a .45-70 BFR and it stopped the bullets from backing out.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

[BOOM BOOM]

hi,
Have you tried this w/ 44 or 357's?
normal pistol brass. vs. a rifle case?

[44man]

I shoot heavy boolits and loads for hunting and it was a disaster with normal pistol brass, all boolits pulled under recoil. I didn't have the problem with the 45-70 and I do have the factory crimp die. Some of those groups were shot with the Lee crimp and some with the roll crimp. There was no difference between them and I didn't find a difference either with harder brass. Both crimps shot tight groups as long as I had good neck tension.
I should have the Lyman neck size die on monday and will see what it does. I hope it is not tapered too much, I would like to get a straight neck size even if it looks a little like a bottle neck. I might have to make a collar die to get what I want.