.410 +P+, +P, or Magnum?

[ThaDoubleJ]

Not sure if this is the right thread, or even the right forum to ask this question, but you guys are pretty smart, so here goes. I got a Taurus Raging Judge Magnum, chambered in of course .410 and .45, but it's also chambered in .454 Casull. I've been playing around with pretty heavy .45 loads in it, and while looking through my box of old brass yesterday, found some of those Russian .410s made of brass that take pistol primers. Regular old .410s are held to something like 15,000 PSI I think, but that Casull chamber can handle something like 60K. I'm not saying I want to load 60K .410 rounds, but maybe 20, 25K? Something hotter than what they make. The old brass I found was fired from a regular old judge years ago, and fire-formed pretty seriously to the wierd judge chamber, which is to say the rear 1/2 of the case opened up to .45 chamber size, the front 1/2 seemed to stay more barrel sized. They will not re-chamber, and will need to be sized...alot. The internet says I can buy Magtech or Rocky Mountain brass for about $1 a case, but if they fireform as well I don't think they'll last very long, and how would I size them anyway? I guess I can also fireform and trim 9.3mmx74R (?) brass and use that, but same question. I guess what I'm asking is, is my idea valid, possible, do-able, or bad? Anyone ever tried or even thought about it? I have an RC4 press, but it would appear that RCBS doesn't make 3" long dies to fit old russian .410 brass, so maybe I could drill out an old sizing die and let them pass through? I dunno, let me know what you all think, thanks.

[Bullshop]

I use 460 S&W cases in a Bond arms Texas Defender 45/410. I put up tri ball loads in them. I dont load them to high pressure but you know they are proofed for plenty of pressure.

[Johnch]

I have seen what a shotgun hull dose when over loaded
Not pretty
The brass around the rim splits
The plastic blows off the brass


Both put hot gasses back to the shooter

And part of a hull lodged in the barrel
Makes the next shot real interesting


IMO it is best to not over load a shotgun shell
Regardless of what you are shooting it out of

John

[DCM]

+1 on what john said!

You have a 454 load that like it was meant to be loaded and load the shotshells like they ere meant to be loaded.
Each is designed differently to work within their normal pressure ranges.

IMO that is the best way to keep your body parts the way they are supposed to be.

[Pepe Ray]

I've reloaded .444 Mar. cases for a .410 single. Using caution (read FEAR) I was intertained
but
I never tried to hot rod anything. Only suggesting that the .444 dies may get the job done.

Mayby I should have kept quiet.
Pepe Ray

[ThaDoubleJ]

IMO it is best to not over load a shotgun shell
Regardless of what you are shooting it out of
John

I totally agree that it would probably be terrifying with a standard plastic hull, the only way I'd try it is with brass shells.

I got my measure, my Judge, and my Wikipedia out and found that the front of my cylinder is .449", the rear is .480". My fired brass from my old judge is .464" at the front, .478" at the back. It gets stuck in my current Judge cylinder about 1/8" before the rim hits the star. An unfired Federal shell measured .472", and a fired (From this big Judge) Rio shell measured .478". The Wikipedia says the 9.3x74R is .465" at the base, .524" at the rim (Got about .530" on my 410 shells), and 2.93" in length. Endtimesreport.com says he anneals these 9.3s, then puts 8.0gr of Herco in em, packs the rest with cream o wheat (I knew there was a purpose for that stuff) and fire forms them to his chamber. He says at standard pressures they won't need resizing. I dunno who he is or if these things are a legitimate way to do stuff. The internet really doesn't say what SAAMI piezo pressure should be for the 9.3, but I gather it's around 45K, short of the Casull, and probably double what I'm looking to achieve. I guess if I figure out the brass problem, which it seems "some guy on the internet" has already figured out, then I'd need to come up with a wad for the shot that would fit inside the larger diameter of the 9.3 case.

[Combat Diver]

What I would have to think about is how extra pressure/velocity if applied will do to the pattern of the shot, esp. since it is a rifle bore. All of these .410 handguns are rifled due to regulations. Given this with the understanding that rifleing opens up patterns, wouldn't higher velocity/load even open up faster? I know that if I load my Speer Shot Capsules in .357 or .44 Mags they don't preform well but if I run them slower (same weight of shot) and in the shorter Special cases of both calibers they preform better.


CD

[429421Cowboy]

What I would have to think about is how extra pressure/velocity if applied will do to the pattern of the shot, esp. since it is a rifle bore. All of these .410 handguns are rifled due to regulations. Given this with the understanding that rifleing opens up patterns, wouldn't higher velocity/load even open up faster? I know that if I load my Speer Shot Capsules in .357 or .44 Mags they don't preform well but if I run them slower (same weight of shot) and in the shorter Special cases of both calibers they preform better.


CD

I have to say you took the words out of my mouth, in my experience velocity has a pretty strong correlation to consistanly poorer patterns in rifled barrels. While it seems like a way to make a short barreled hangun perform like a true .410 shotgun by getting the pellets up to useful speed, i just think you'll only spin your pattern to heck. Maybe you had instead intended to make a load similar to the .45/70 "hockshop" load that is often brought up around here, by bringing buckshot up to useful speed, but i just don't know that you won't headed down the road of diminshing returns.

[ThaDoubleJ]

These are pretty valid points, I never even thought about that. Maybe I'll do some research into the new Judge specific loads and see if maybe they load them slower and heavier to reduce pattern dispersion. They're doing something right, I can tell you that. I've been on the Judge bandwagon since day one, and the patterns have gotten better and better through the years, with Federal being my favorite right now. What I did find odd, is that the longer barrel (6.5") of my new Judge seems to pattern tighter than the 3" barrel of my previous two. I have no idea why, as it seems this would increase velocity. Maybe it's the 22LR syndrome, longer barrel = slower MV = more useful load. That pretty much made no sense, I'm going to bed.

[phatman]

Look up: Hoening Big Bore South
They are doing some amazing stuff with the little 410

[LUTNIT]

For what it's worth, I fireform .303 British cases to 410 brass shotshells for my single shot 410. I load them with large magnum pistol primers.
Of course being in Canada I have more range collected 303 British than I do 30-06 because Lee Enfields are so prolific here. Gotta find a use for them all somehow...

[ThaDoubleJ]

Phat, thanks, I shot them an email, they seem slug orientated, but open minded as well, maybe they got some ideas.

[ThaDoubleJ]

LUT, I've heard that that's a possibility, too. The 9.3 is longer, but it's turning outto be difficult to find, so I may go that route to experiment.

[KCSO]

LOad a shot shell of brass too hat and you get shot clumping. I tried some hotter loads in a 410 SMLE and was sorely disappointed. Above 3" loads just didn't pattern. And you already have a solid projectile.

[ThaDoubleJ]

So you're saying the shot mushes together into a sold/frangible ball, or I guess cylinder, of lead? What size shot did you use?

[Johnch]

So you're saying the shot mushes together into a sold/frangible ball, or I guess cylinder, of lead? What size shot did you use?

IMO it dosn't

I load a few fast 12 gau loads
1900 FPS and faster

Tough to get good patterns
As the pellets deform more and the extra velosity opens the pattern up even faster with deformed shot

So IMO with normal loads the shot dosn't form a slug

John

[ThaDoubleJ]

That's pretty fast, what type of hulls are you using? I'd probably be happy to get 14-1500, which would be pretty tough in a 6.5" barrel opposed to the 28ish barrels that shot loads are intended for.

[Johnch]

That's pretty fast, what type of hulls are you using? I'd probably be happy to get 14-1500, which would be pretty tough in a 6.5" barrel opposed to the 28ish barrels that shot loads are intended for.

These are loaded in 12 gau Fed 2 3/4"High Capisity hulls ( more volume than Gold Medal hull )
And out of a 28" barrel

A close freind that has a pressure test set up worked these loads up

I have read most of the loads shot in the Judge are 1000 - 1200 FPS

John

[ThaDoubleJ]

Does anyone have a MEC reloader for .410? If so, how does it size the brass? My Lee Load-All mushes a ring down over the brass, then step 2 pops the ring off, wouldn't something like that work on an all brass .410 case?

[LUTNIT]

My MEC 600jr sizes .410 cases the same way as a Lee load all but the sizing ring is on a post instead of being separate. After you press the ring down onto the case a post inside pushes the hull off.
The metal end on a plastic/paper shotshell hull is much thinner than a solid brass case. Full length sizing a solid brass case would be like full length sizing a straight walled brass case; much more force and a stronger press.
I have heard of people using carbide .45 ACP dies to size .410 solid brass shotshells. Also .444 Marlin dies but not as commonly.

[ThaDoubleJ]

That's a good point, sizing a .45Colt on my RC4 created enough stress to require a pair of 2x4s and a 3/4 bench top with the base plate mounted to avoid bending up my bench. I'll have to do some math to figure out how much sizing they need, and what old dirty die I can find that will do it on the cheap.