9mm Hyper Velocity

[ksouthar]

Thought a few souls might find some interest in these. Hyper velocity 9mm designed for low penetration but to impart maximum energy. No signifcant penetration through a wet phone book, just a few pepper-sized pieces. Does leave an expansion cavity of about 4" in diameter though. It will penetrate an interior wall mock up but there isn't much left except small fragments exiting. Chronographed these from a 9mm Taurus at 1950 fps. Don't know what the CUP pressure is but I didn't see any signs of pressure as I worked the load up to that level. Stopped when it got to the point of cycling reliably.

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Design is a 70 Grain cup base hollow point. Trimmed the jacket to leave 1/32" or so of exposed lead to aid in immediate expansion and avoid plugging the jacket as it passes through the first layers.

Just another example of how rolling your own let's you design a purpose specific bullet. Swaged using a Corbin Mity-Mite press and dies.

Keith

[Del-Ray]

I've got a video, "deadly weapons", actually a DVD now. Most of it is tripe, and was refuted in their next video, "deadly effects".

However, in it the host was shot by a .308 rifle from a few feet in front of the muzzle while wearing a ballistic vest, and while standing tip toed on one foot.

The round impacted, deposited way more energy then a 9mm ever could and he barely flinched.

I don't understand the thought of maximum energy. What does that do to a person?

I know pistol rounds kill by destroying the tissue they touch, no concealable caliber has potential to kill with shock alone. A temporary cavity is just that, a cavity. Sure a liver won't stretch, nor the brain. But neither are center mass. and the liver won't kill instantly.

If the maximum energy of a 308 doesn't do anything to stop a person, what would a round from a 9mm cratering on a sternum do?

Of course, the person could see they are shot and have an emotional reaction. "Oh noes! I'm shot! I'm dead!" And drop to the floor. Or the person can not even notice and just keep attacking. You can't determine beforehand which reaction you will get from the target.

I'd rather have penetration; through heart, lung and spine. Which will instantly incapacitate the target then "hope" the maximum energy somehow stops the person.

I'm just wondering, what's the reasoning behind this type of round? Is it just limiting over penetration?

[MIBULLETS]

However, in it the host was shot by a .308 rifle from a few feet in front of the muzzle while wearing a ballistic vest, and while standing tip toed on one foot.

The round impacted, deposited way more energy then a 9mm ever could and he barely flinched.

I very much doubt that! If the bullet was caught by the vest, the energy would be more than enough to make him flinch, most likely knock him down. When that bullet stops it dumps all of its energy right then. That's like 2700ft/lbs! Now if they were using a light frangible bullet it would break up quicker and not deliver as much energy but I wouldn't stand in front of one. Is that what they were using?

[Intel6]

Reminds me of a 9mm load that Federal used to make. Back in the 80's when LAPD was transitioning from revolvers to the Beretta 9mm they initially started using a 9mm load from Federal that was loaded with a 95gr "dish point" bullet. It was not a HP but had a concave nose to in in the exposed lead. I remmeber seeing them and thinking it was strange for them to use it but back then, the 9mm hadn't really been developed as much as it has now for defence so I guess they thought that worked as good as any other.

Neal in AZ

[Reload3006]

Your idea that a heart lung shot would instantly incapacitate is mistaken. Have you ever shot a deer in the heart and then track it for over a hundred yards? I truly do believe that the video you watch was B.S. for several reasons. as MI already pointed out he is going to more than flinch if hit with 2700 foot pounds of energy. secondly a little study of history shows why the us army went from 38 special to 45acp. Our soldiers while fighting in the Philippines would shoot a Moro warrior with a 38special and hit him in a vital spot but didn't have the kinetic energy to knock him down that fatally wounded warrior often had enough life left in him to kill his killer. kinetic energy is developed in two ways mass and velocity. If you need a demonstration of hydraulic shock shoot a watermelon or a jug of water. I have killed several deer with my 30-06 normally shot in the shoulders trying for a double lung. After such shots while dressing the deer there has never been a heart or a lung that was discernible as such in them That damage didn't happen just because of a projectile passing through them. It was the hyper-velocity of the bullet causing hydraulic shock.

[IllinoisCoyoteHunter]

My dad was shot with a 45 acp from about 2 feet away in the shoulder and he said it felt like someone hit him with sledgehammer. Spn him around. His shoulder LOOKED like someone hit it with a sledgehammer...multiple times.

[Dan Cash]

I hope you guys who think the impact of a bullet knocks the target over are never put in a position to demonstrate it. You will be in for a most unpleasant surprise when your assailant does not fall over but continues to fight like hell.

[MIBULLETS]

Now I'm not saying any bullet will 100% of the time knock someone to the ground, but they will be hit hard. If the bullet expands little and just blows through with a much lower hydrostatic shock effect, no doubt they might shoot back. That's why you don't stop with one shot. You shoot until they are incapacitated or dead.

[nicholst55]

I very much doubt that! If the bullet was caught by the vest, the energy would be more than enough to make him flinch, most likely knock him down. When that bullet stops it dumps all of its energy right then. That's like 2700ft/lbs! Now if they were using a light frangible bullet it would break up quicker and not deliver as much energy but I wouldn't stand in front of one. Is that what they were using?

I remember that video. The host was wearing 'Dragon Scales' hard (plate) armor, not a 'soft' vest. No soft armor will stop a rifle bullet - at least, none that I'm aware of.

[Del-Ray]

I very much doubt that! If the bullet was caught by the vest, the energy would be more than enough to make him flinch, most likely knock him down. When that bullet stops it dumps all of its energy right then. That's like 2700ft/lbs! Now if they were using a light frangible bullet it would break up quicker and not deliver as much energy but I wouldn't stand in front of one. Is that what they were using?

Again. Anite productions. Video: "Deadly Weapons".

It is basically reality. If the shot from the rifle could knock the person being shot down, it would also knock the shooter down as well.

I wish I could rip the portion of the video off the disk for you but I can't.

Did they have frangible bullets in the 80's? I'll watch the dvd again today and see if they say exactly what they are shooting.


Your idea that a heart lung shot would instantly incapacitate is mistaken. Have you ever shot a deer in the heart and then track it for over a hundred yards? I truly do believe that the video you watch was B.S. for several reasons. as MI already pointed out he is going to more than flinch if hit with 2700 foot pounds of energy. secondly a little study of history shows why the us army went from 38 special to 45acp.

Heart, lung, spine. You missed the last one. I've watched plenty of deer get spine shot. Haven't seen one run on all fours away from the scene yet. Being human, a spine shot may not kill immediately, but dropping to the ground should cause immediate incapacitation by him not being able to fire. Though I'm sure a person may be able to do it...

The video is true. Not BS. Look up Anite Productions. Deadly weapons. It's been out for decades. The man doing the shooting was the owner of Second Chance vests. They were shooting one of his vests.


If you need a demonstration of hydraulic shock shoot a watermelon or a jug of water.

Indeed, except flesh does not react like either. Neither expand or stretch. Human flesh does. Except the brain and liver of course. Standard pistol calibers do not cause damage by shock unless they hit those organs.


I have killed several deer with my 30-06 normally shot in the shoulders trying for a double lung. After such shots while dressing the deer there has never been a heart or a lung that was discernible as such in them That damage didn't happen just because of a projectile passing through them. It was the hyper-velocity of the bullet causing hydraulic shock.

Which is why I state "I know pistol rounds kill by destroying the tissue they touch, no concealable caliber has potential to kill with shock alone."

I wasn't speaking of rifle rounds. Pistol rounds only. And the standard concealable types most wear, .380, 9mm, .38, .357, .40, and .45.

Pistol rounds do not kill by, or cause hydraulic shock. Not enough energy.


My dad was shot with a 45 acp from about 2 feet away in the shoulder and he said it felt like someone hit him with sledgehammer. Spn him around. His shoulder LOOKED like someone hit it with a sledgehammer...multiple times.

Indeed. Did hydrostatic shock blow it off? No. It hurts to get shot. Richard Davis shot himself hundreds of times and while he said it felt like getting hit with a hammer he never got spun around, nor did it stop him from being able to return fire. Humans react differently to getting shot. Look at the Miami FBI shooting. Multiple fatal hits, and the bad guy still kept coming. While a lady can get shot in the buttocks with #9 shot, look down and see she's been hit and drop dead. Mental aspects are sometimes more important then physical damage. Sometimes.



I remember that video. The host was wearing 'Dragon Scales' hard (plate) armor, not a 'soft' vest. No soft armor will stop a rifle bullet - at least, none that I'm aware of.

Dragon scales was made by second chance in 1985? And has white fluff that comes out when it's shot? I own the video, I'm going to try to get a copy of the scene and post it here. I'll video it with my camera if I have to.








Watching the video right now. It's a Second chance hardcore 3. This is from 1985, I didn't find anything in a quick internet search.

States it can go through airport metal detectors, and has "pads" that can be removed and worn "deep cover" under a shirt. It's designed to stop a 30 caliber rifle round, and could stop a 458 Winchester Magnum.

They claim to shoot him with a 308 Nato ball round, they use an Fn-FAL to shoot him. One the second shot he hands him the bullet, it looks just like a nato ball round to me. He fires four rounds of five, which shows there is recoil, they are not blanks, and then stands up straight, on one leg. He kind of flinches the first shot, so he has Richard shoot him AGAIN. No flinch, no nothing. One one FOOT.

They explain exactly about the physics involved. Then have an interesting explanation. If you stick a guy in the buttocks with a pin, he'll jump. It wasn't the force of pin, it was his bodies reaction to getting poked. Same with getting shot with any rifle that doesn't have the recoil to blow the shooter back as well.

[Bwana]

Your idea that a heart lung shot would instantly incapacitate is mistaken. Have you ever shot a deer in the heart and then track it for over a hundred yards? I truly do believe that the video you watch was B.S. for several reasons. as MI already pointed out he is going to more than flinch if hit with 2700 foot pounds of energy. secondly a little study of history shows why the us army went from 38 special to 45acp. Our soldiers while fighting in the Philippines would shoot a Moro warrior with a 38special and hit him in a vital spot but didn't have the kinetic energy to knock him down that fatally wounded warrior often had enough life left in him to kill his killer. kinetic energy is developed in two ways mass and velocity. If you need a demonstration of hydraulic shock shoot a watermelon or a jug of water. I have killed several deer with my 30-06 normally shot in the shoulders trying for a double lung. After such shots while dressing the deer there has never been a heart or a lung that was discernible as such in them That damage didn't happen just because of a projectile passing through them. It was the hyper-velocity of the bullet causing hydraulic shock.

It didn't help that the Moro were often under the influence of drugs.

[Del-Ray]

Video up. This is just a clip of the rifle being shot into the vest, there's the first shot, then I fast forward through Richard shooting himself with a 44 magnum. Then I play again and you get the second shot.

This is my first You Tube Upload, I hope it works.

http://youtu.be/ZH9RGYv_u3k

[jonblack]

My wife said "nice sorts" as she walked by.

jonblack

[Del-Ray]

The eighties..... Ugh.

[NSP64]

yea, but............
if you notice he is not shooting at a 90* angle to the target. both are glancing shots.
I wonder if he does that on purpose incase there is a penetration.
the vest didnt cover much.

[Del-Ray]

Looks pretty close to 90 for me. Though that second shot was a near miss!

Still point proven. The 308 did not blow him off his feet.

So no standard pistol cartridge has any chance of doing it.