Model 14 30 Remington

[madsenshooter]

OK, it's not a lever action, but it is tube fed. I've developed some interest in getting one that's 100yrs old shooting decent. Towards that end I slugged the bore the other day, made some good impact slugs of throat and muzzle. I had to clean what had to have been nearly the whole 100yrs worth of carbon fouling out of the barrel first.

The throat of the rifle was still very short, the lands very sharp. Rifling was 7 groove, 1/12 twist. Lands were only about half the thickness of a Krag's lands and the grooves were gently rounded from the tops of the lands down to the bottom. Bore measured .303" and groove diameter is .3105-.311", with the absolute back of the throat being .312". With an odd number of lands and grooves I had expected the larger bore and luckily ordered one of NOE's 311440 molds with the larger .303 nose.

I've been forewarned by a fellow who works on 14s and 141s exclusively that cast bullets are a no no, so I just have to make it work. The 311440 has a large meplat and comparing it's dimensions to the throat slug, appears it ought to fit and feed fine, long as the bullet's hard enough to take the beating in the tube. If ever a bullet was designed specifically for this rifle, this has to be it. Considering the fact that the rifle was much used by the folks at home during times that jacketed bullets couldn't be had, it might very well have been designed for the Model 14 by Ideal. I also have NOE's SAECO 315 copy with a .304" top band coming. It might work, depending on how the .17" meplat works in the tube.

I had to shoot up some old Remington ammo the other day to get reloadable cases. I noticed that old ammo, made in CT had a .303" diameter band about 3/32" tall ahead of the crimping groove to lessen the jump before the bullet received guidance from the rifling and they don't have far to jump at all. Newer ammo, made in AR didn't have this band. Didn't have time to compare the two, but wasn't happy with the 50yd accuracy of the bullet with the band. Might have held 3-4". I can do better than that with some of my smooth bore slug guns!

Judging by the sharp lands, short throat, and outside condition of the rifle it has probably been carried more than it has been shot. The muzzle needs recrowned, appears to have some cleaning rod wear, despite being a takedown model that can be cleaned from the breech. That probably didn't help the accuracy of the undersize for the bore bullets.

[elk hunter]

I have given some thought to shooting cast through my model 14, 30 Remington, but haven't gotten around to it. Do let us know how they work in yours.

[Char-Gar]

I have a transition model 14/141 in 30 Rem., sitting in the shop rack waiting it's turn. The guy I got it from (Glen Fryxell) said he could not get it to work with cast unless the bullet was seated very deep so only the nose was out of the case neck. An examination of the rifle tells me, as previously noted, there is zero throat, just a bevel at the end of the chamber/start of the barrel. My plan is to take a throating reamer and put a throat where Remington should have done it in the first place. From there on out, it is just bullet fit as usual. If the Grim Reaper doesn't get me first, I will get er done.

[madsenshooter]

You have to be careful with the OAL charger, so as not to cause jamming in the tube when the cartridge is lifted, and the point has to be rounded enough that it doesn't snag under the cartridge in front. Back when this rifle was made there was a lot of different theories about how rifling should work. I don't think my bore is worn, it was made with the dimensions I stated. Noted on a recovered jacketed bullet that they're only .307" so each land only puts .002" pressure on the bullet. Not enough according to modern theory, but we are going back in that direction with the 5R rifling. Biggest difference between then and now is that we use bullets that are usually about groove diameter. I'll just have to try a few .311 jacketed bullets too!

[Char-Gar]

It is my plan to use 311291 and I have at least a dozen molds in that design. One of them will fit whatever the bore and groove turns out to be. This is a very blunt RN design and should not give problems in the magazine. I had a 14 in 25 Remington years ago and shot cast in it. It works fine. I plan on using the throating reamer to cut just enough throat for the bullets to be seated properly with the case mouth even with the crimp groove. I will probably put a light crimp on the bullet. I don't want it being pushed into the case in the magazine.

[madsenshooter]

I see. That magazine spring puts quite a bit of tension on the stack, a crimp in the right place would probably be a good idea. I just stumbled on an interesting scope mount/receiver sight combination that will fit my Model 14. Made at one time by a company in Oregon, Mykrom. A plate goes on the side of the receiver and the scope or receiver sight can be switched as desired, good return to zero thanks to a patented double v mounting. (http://www.google.com/patents/US2470282?printsec=drawing#v=onepage&q&f=false) They were made in the late 40's, early 50's. A little 2.5 scope like a Norman Ford Texan, which I just happen to have a few of, ought to work. I think I have one with a tapered post reticle. Almost hate to drill and tap something that's made it 100yrs without suffering that fate, but I like such gadgetry!

[Char-Gar]

Very interesting sighting arrangment. If you get it up and going, be certain to post some pics for us to see. I have the old folding Lyman tang sights for my Remington 25 (25-20) and my 141 (30 Remington). They of course mount in factory provided holes.

[madsenshooter]

May not get it on for awhile, but I'll put some pics of it premounted so you get a better idea what I'm talking about. I'll do that sometime when I ain't so sleepy. Like I said, I like options, got a Krag with an odd scope mount that can be quickly removed with different scope options pre-rigged. Or when the scope's off, a bolt with a peep can be put in. The original rear sight or a Pacific receiver sight could go on too. I just hope my grandson appreciates all these neat features.

[HARRYMPOPE]

A 30 Carbine reamer has a good throat and doesn't open the neck up too much.Ed Harris Trick.

[rking22]

I read that the 14 /141 don't like lead too. Problem was I had already tried it with 311041 and it shot well. Only thing I hunted with this year and got a young and tasty buck with the 311041 and another with a 165RD. Note on the RD ,it has to be seated deep to chamber ,like yours ,throat is more accurately defined as a bevel in this gun! The 311041 was fine and seated to the crmp groove OAL was good and feeding was great. I would personally never drill/tap one of these old rifles ,there are lots of them out there that have already been done. Keep it as original as possible ,future generations may enjoy experiencing hunting "the old way". I am 54 and the eyes protest open irons ,but I still enjoy the handling qualities and pointability of these rifles as they were originally issued. It' yours ,but think on it before you start, especially if it is in good overall condition. They do shoot cast just fine!

[madsenshooter]

I might change my mind. The mount lines up right with the scope rings in it, rings are right down center, and they only raise the line of sight up 7/16". But, it appears the peep sight was made with a flat top in mind. I can get it on there, but I have to raise the mount and therefore wouldn't have the scope as low as possible like I'd want. Mount may have been for a 94 or something like that. Guess I'd better see if I can get it shooting good enough to warrant a scope before going further in that direction. Well, I'll see....

[TXGunNut]

Pics?

[rking22]

Mine is a 1939 141 ,I have been having so much fun just shooting it that I haven't done much in the way of load development. So.ooo I am interested in your results : ) ,Thanks for the bore info ,explains why the 140 seaco did not shoot well. I have a link for new 30 Rem brass and will post when I can find it. The fact is that cast shoots well and cycles fine as long as the COAL is correct and you stay out of that bevel they call a throat. A long load causes a very interesting to clear tie up! What I can say ,based on hunting with it , is that the cast loads get kinda chewed up cycling thru the mag and action when you unload the gun several times over several days of hunting. On hindsight I will cycle thru my ammo and only use the same shells for 1 or 2 hunts using them to practice and play later. My load was 1.6 cc of RL7 with 170 gr cast. Like I said ,little load development ,first try shot well (1" at 40 yards "tree rest" and to the sights 1750ish fps) Time to go "shoot some food"! Held 3ish inches at 100 for five and to the sights again. No bench rest involved, and issue opens. Time to see what it will do this summer!

[texassako]

... A little 2.5 scope like a Norman Ford Texan, which I just happen to have a few of, ought to work. I think I have one with a tapered post reticle. Almost hate to drill and tap something that's made it 100yrs without suffering that fate, but I like such gadgetry!

You ought to look into a vintage Stith no drill mount. Not sure of it is actually no drill on a 14, but they sure match up with Texan scopes nicely.

[madsenshooter]

I probably have a Stith, but it requires d&t-ing the side also and doesn't have the nifty peep sight of the Mykrom either. I did sell a Stith mount for a Model 70 once that had a peep you could put on.

[nekshot]

For those who never handled and shot these, you are missing something. I am still kicking my butt for trading off my 14 and a half 38-40, what was I thinking......!

[starmac]

I have yet to shoot my 14 (30 rem) I do finally have some dies on the way now, thanks to a fellow member here.

[madsenshooter]

Dies and a mold in my case. So the boolits I want to try haven't even been cast yet. I've got some .311 copper plated 110gr roundnose bullets I'm going to load so I can see how it likes having its groove diameter filled. See how they go at M1 carbine speed or a bit slower. Incidentally, the company that makes the copper plated bullet I have also makes a 150gr .308 flatnose for lever/pumps, but demand has them swamped right now. Graf's carries them but none in stock presently. Having those .311 bullets allowed me to see just where the rifling hits .303 and it looks like the NOE 314440 will have to be seated down to the crimp groove. Fine with me. That's gonna leave the oal a bit shorter than factory 170gr loads, but maybe they'll feed.

[rking22]

With the RD 165 I was shorter than standard OAL due to the front band dia vs the throat. The rounds fed fine thru the magazine. I was sizing .310 dia. Lots of my loads get shot plinking , these old remington pumps are a ball to shoot.
All loads produced on lee "whack-a-mole" set for 30-30. Loaded 20 rounds of brass 4 times and no sign of needing to FL size .Quit counting after that.At some point I will have to find a FL die. Reed's was the place with brass ,out of stock now. Graf's may have some in stock.

[starmac]

My lee whack-a-mole set for 30/30 is for 30/30 and 30 rem, if we are talking about just the plain old lee loader. I haven't used it, but the directions says it is for both calibers.

My m14 came from an older gent who was selling off his dads guns, and claimed his dad used it to make meat for years. They were originally from Pa. With it came 3 old boxes of winchester silvertip, all missing from one to three shells. This was 170 grain, so I assume those shot at least good enough to hunt with, but I haven't wanted to shoot up the old ammo, and got enough brass from another member to not need to.

[madsenshooter]

I wonder if the barrels got tighter later in production or if they stayed with the same dimensions? Mine is first year production.

[rking22]

I found a reference ,I think on Remington Society that the bores were tight (.307). Have not checked mine , I will do so and post result. Mine is 1939 barrel code.

[madsenshooter]

OK, those of you wanting pics, I promise soon. I've got it clamped on, the scope is mounted and positioned for proper eye relief. Things now don't look as down the center as I originally thought, going to need to shim behind the mount's sideplate. The receiver sight shows the same, mounting plate needs to be shimmed out around 1/16". The scope and sight both look good on there, so I've decided I want to use the mount, but I can compromise and buy another rifle or receiver that's lame for some other reason, already d&t'd on the top or something like that. Even though it's nothing to look at, and the stock was sanded and refinished sometime long ago, it's still an otherwise original. The 25 Rem looks interesting too, ballistics with the 87gr bullet similar to what I was getting with an 80 something grain cast boolit in my 6x45 AR. I'll keep my eyes peeled for another one to put this contraption on. Pics tmrw.

[starmac]

Mine was drilled and tapped long before I got it. I probably wouldn't do it, but am glad it is. It has a 2-3/4 redfield on it that looks like it was made for it, and will be a help to these eyes of mine. The gunshow last weekend had one in 35 priced like it wasn't for sale, but the last one (larger) had several including a couple of the 25's that are getting more interesting everyday.
How hard is brass to come by for the 25??

[madsenshooter]

All I see at Graf's is custom makers, and they're out. Doesn't look like Remington ran it this year, they did the 30, but they got snatched up pretty quick. One thing to bear in mind with the 25, 30 and 32 Rem cartridges is that a fellow with a lathe could also make then from 25-35Win, 30-30Win or 32Win Special. I note there's a difference in the length to shoulder, but when the Model 14's breechblock is in battery, the case can only go as far forward as the slots which guide the rim during feeding will allow it to go. Those slots and the extractor have quite a grip on the rim so any difference in the shoulder would fireform out. Got my mount clamped on now, so I can't measure those slots.

[madsenshooter]

I found a reference ,I think on Remington Society that the bores were tight (.307). Have not checked mine , I will do so and post result. Mine is 1939 barrel code.

I found a similar reference in an old Lyman book. It even recommended not using larger diameter jacketed bullets, like 180gr .311 bullets for the Brit. Mine will measure .307, IF one measures from the top of one land to the bottom of the groove across from it.

Got some pics of the mount clamped on. It appears it was made for something with a wider receiver, or they were generic for flat sided receivers, space out as needed. I now see I need about 1/8 spacer behind it.

[texassako]

All of my Remington Model 8's and 81's have a bore ~.001" smaller than you would expect, ie. .307, .319, .357 except the .25 Rem. The whole cartridge line was developed around a tighter bore apparently.

[madsenshooter]

I've got some .311 (more like .3105) Berry 110gr plated bullets loaded to see how it likes the full groove diameter filled. Just finished loading them to around 2000fps with 10B101. I sized the necks down to .308 ID with a 30-30 Lee Collet die, and seated the bullets out to the rifling. They weren't in the case far, so I didn't crimp, too close to the base. I'll single load them.

I found a bullet that really fits the throat! Hamish had sent me some NOE 316155FN for me to try in my Mosin. Got to looking at my throat slugs and that big nose which tapers from .304 at the ogive to .311 (after sizing) just ahead of the crimp/cleaning groove. The profile of the bullet matched the slug pretty good! I sized them down to .314", then to .311" and gave them some oven heat treating. I seated one to the same OAL as a factory round and it'll chamber with some extra effort needed to extract it. Leaves rifling marks about 1/16" long rearward from the .303 diameter. The check is above the neck/shoulder junction, so I can go deeper. Checked, they weigh 168.5gr. Crimp groove isn't in the right place, but a factory crimp die doesn't care.

I have some plate coming for the scope mount, after measuring things, what my eyeball said was 1/16" or an 1/8" turned out to be 1/10". I'm going to use the mount for sure. The idea of the take down feature when these rifles were first introduced, was for transporting them in smaller cases. I think a cased set including sight selection would go along with the idea. And, I have 3 of the receiver sights, which could be zero'd for different loads, plinking through deer and in between.

[390ish]

I tried some make of 30 Remington from Grafs that was loaded with the leverloution 160 grainer. talk about a no joke way to hang up an action. wow. had to disassemble and it was still a pain to remove. glad to have the heads-up on the cast / throat situation.

[madsenshooter]

Just went through the same thing this morning. I had loaded a 185gr flatnose and thought I'd see if it would work. Too long, it wouldn't lift out of the tube. Took it apart, and as you said, it still wasn't easy to clear. That just started the day going wrong, since then, everything I've touched has gone wrong and I been cussing all day. Oh well, tmrw's another day. I seated the 185 a little deeper and it works, provided one operates the pump smartly, as you should.

[rking22]

I hear you on the "too long" tie up. after the first one I set the calipers to the COAL and check the first few ,nothing even .001 too long again! Was so close I did'nt have to take it apart but took some fiddling to clear (and my glasses).
I got around to checking my 141's bore , it checked right at .308 groove dia.

[TXGunNut]

Thanks for the pics, nice rifle. Mount is very interesting as well. I've read of them but had not seen one. Thanks again.

[madsenshooter]

You're welcome TX. I'm going to use the mount, but I'm not going to D&T this receiver. Instead, I got an even older barreled receiver off gunbroker for $20 plus shipping. I don't have it yet, so don't know what sort of shape the barrel is in, maybe not much worse than this one. If the barrel is usable it's fairly simple to swap the rest of the parts from one to the other, leaving me with an unmolested rifle to pass on or get rid of one day. So, you all almost talked me out of it, but not quite. Didn't have a chance anyway. A little over a year ago I had a stay in the hospital, had some really weird dreams while in the MRI tube. Won't tell them all, but in one there was a pack of coyotes or wolves coming at me and I was laying them down with a pump rifle equipped with an aperture sight. I had no pump rifle at that time, so....sometimes, you just have to follow your dreams.

[madsenshooter]

I've been casting some of both new NOE molds I got to try in the rifle. Dummied up a few to see how they'd throat up. The nose of the 314440 was dropping at .304". Seated to the crimp groove and crimped it would chamber, but was hard into the rifling. It'll have to be seated deeper and will make a very short stub nosed round. Maybe the older barrel will have a longer throat. The nose of the 185gr, in my alloy, 314175FN, a SAECO 315 copy, dropped at .303" and fit out into the rifling better with an OAL of 2.54". At this length the crimp was in the second groove. Looks like the edge of the chamber was cutting a wee wedge off the meplat, seating to the crimp groove might improve that. That would put the check just a bit below the neck/shoulder junction, so a good crimp would be important on any you intend to load in the magazine. I had seated one of the bullets in a fired round that had a slightly protruding primer. Hadn't crimped the round, and when I tapped the primer on the wooden arm of my chair a couple times, the bullet fell on through the neck.

I made up some small game/plinking loads by flattening the noses of some Magtech pure lead 98gr roundnose bullets for the 32SW. Sized them down to .311" and swaged a meplat of .25". That swages the ogive out to .303" and the bullets wedge into the rifling, not too hard, at an OAL of 2.37". The meplat appears to be too big for feeding, always snags the top of the chamber, but I don't mind going single shot hunting. Guesstimating around a 900fps load with 10B101.

I seated the fat nose Mosin boolit, NOE's 316155FN a bit deeper than before, OAL of 2.468". It throats up very good, feeds well, and the check is above the neck/shoulder junction. I don't have this mold, just trying out some boolits that were sent to me. Awesome fit, I'm going to have to get one of the molds as I have a large bored Mosin. Looks like it would make a nice Krag bullet also, one that wouldn't have to be seated out until there's little in the case in order to hit the rifling, as some of my middleweight bullets have to be.

I decided I'd like to see what they'd do at full throttle, so pulled the .307 bullets out of the Remington rounds and simply reloaded the Mosin bullet over the same powder. Charge weight indicated it was in the 760 neighborhood, but a noncanister grade, not as uniform as store-bought. A few early rounds I broke down had 3031, but I think 760 became a sort of insurance policy for the ammo makers when it came to ammo for old guns.

[madsenshooter]

Thought you all might like to see how things look. L-R. NOE 314175FN. Drops at 185gr in my alloy. Feeds ok at an OAL of 2.54", .303" nose is just into the rifling with the crimp in the second groove. Rem factory load 2.51". NOE 316155FN, the Mosin bullet, 2.47" feeds good, throats up good, 168gr. NOE 314440, seated to the crimp groove at an OAL of 2.38",the .304 nose is a no go. It does appear the round would feed though, 155gr . Berry 110gr, .311 plated bullet seated to hit the rifling, OAL of 2.56", they feed. Loaded with 10B101 to around 2000fps. Finally, my home swaged Magtech 98gr roundnose that became a flatnose. OAL of 2.37", they don't feed, bullet hits the top of the chamber. Loaded to around 800-900fps

[Char-Gar]

The other day I was looking at a shelf on the loading bench were I have several thousand 311407 Mod. bullets cast up. A light went on in my head and I sized and checked on to .311 and loaded it in a 30 Remington case with a light crimp in the groove behind the second top .302 band. The bullet body is now enclosed in the case neck and they feed and chamber as slick as you please in my Remington 141.

I loaded 50 rounds of these bullets over 16/2400 and went to the range. Accuracy was great and there were no feeding and chambering issues. In case folks are not familiar with the bullet here is a drawing. As cast it runs .314 on the body and .302 on the top two bands. It weights 165 grains from my Lyman No. 2 alloy.

63819

[madsenshooter]

Hmm, NOE has a similar bullet 314466, larger top band, but similar profile. I think for now I'll be working on loads with the 185gr bullet. Coyotes and wild hogs will be the most likely targets.

[madsenshooter]

Hmm, I see Tom at accurate molds has a 150gr mold that would throat up exactly the same as the 185gr bullet above, if I ordered it with a .303 nose. http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=31-150C-D.png