I am looking at getting my first muzzle loading rifle any suggestion.

[Neo]

I am looking at getting a muzzle loading rifle and I am not sure where to start like should I get a flintlock or a precision cap rifle also I looked some years ago and you could buy kit forms of rifles and I am not sure if you still can. Our can you buy replica rifles any help anyone can give me would be appreciated.:castmine:

[nhrifle]

Lots of choices are out there, depends upon what you really want. For someone starting out, I would advise a percussion cap model, since you aren't dealing with the firing delay and the big flash right in front of your eyes. The kit rifles are out there, Traditions models being the most common. I have built a couple of their Kentucky rifles and they make wonderful roundball shooters and look superb with a browned barrel, which is easy to do with modest effort. Premade rifles are easy to find. Anything from Thompson Center is great, but if you find something you like, get it.

There has been a common belief that if you shoot roundballs, they must be cast from pure lead. That is so much nonsense. I have shot many thousands of roundballs I cast from jst wheel weight alloy and they shoot just fine. If you cast conicals, those should be made from pure or near pure lead so they deform and engrave in the rifling. As for powder, I started out using the substitutes, but learned how much better they perform with real black powder.

One thing to look for is a dedicated range rod with a palm cushion. This makes shooting much more enjoyable.

[451 Pete]

Neo,

Welcome aboard. The choice of percussion or flint is yours but the percussion is just a bit more user friendly to the beginning shooter in my opinion. A number of kits can be found at places like Track of the Wolf and Dixie Gun Works but a inexpensive good used rifle like a CVA or Thompson Center Hawken may be best to start out with.
The best recommendation I can make to a shooter just starting out is to find an idividual or local club that is already into the muzzle loading sport. Most folks, once you show an interest in what they are doing, are proud of what they are doing and will take time to explain the hows and whys to a new shooter. You can always learn more from hands on and watching how things are done than reading a book or trying to learn from trial and error by yourself.

Pete

[Fly]

Well there are still kit guns being sold, but the price is way higher then the old days.
Lyman makes some great rifle kit's today.Tradision also makes some kit,s but I have
never owned one.

If you want to spend a little more cash there are custom gun makers that sell kit's also.
Check out Track of the wolf, web site.They have a good selection.

Fly

[Sergeant Earthworm]

A couple lessons, some learned from hard experience:

- Black powder safety is a little different than smokeless safety. For one thing, never put body parts over the muzzle when loading because of the risk of cook-off. For another, cleanliness is essential for a safe operating gun. Read the owners manual and live by it. Never exceed maximum charges. Find someone in your area who experienced in black powder shooting and learn from them.

- A lot of the choice regarding which type to own comes down to aesthetics. Many guys I know bought a traditional sidelock like the Hawken, Plains Rifle, Renegade, Kentucky, or similar as their first gun and branched out as they got more into black powder shooting.

- Cap or flint just comes down to preference. Flint has the advantage of not having to find caps and being able to find and knap a flint. Of course, if there isn't any flint in your area you have to buy that too.

- I would recommend owning a .50 caliber as a first gun. Just about everyone I know owns a .50, and there is lots of stuff on the market for .50 guns.

- If you are considering a used gun, find someone who has a borescope and inspect the bore for pitting and rifling wear. Some years ago I got a great deal on a gun that turned out to have a bad barrel, not such a great deal after all.

- Building a gun is one way to learn how they work. Some kits and finished guns are better than others, ask around about quality before buying.

- Dixie Gun Works and Track of the Wolf are great sources for all things muzzleloading.

- Have a blast.

[whtsmoke]

Let us not forget one of the easiest muzzleloader to learn on and still have a very good hunting weapon. You can also look at the civil war era rifled muskets also, all you do is dump the powder, seat a mini ball which is a cinch and cap your nipple. the enfields make good shooters for the beginners. ive shot most of them and my all time preference is a 62caliber smoothbore flintlock, you can really get hooked from the first shot.

[Wooly]

Percussion is just a fad; It won`t catch on!

[fouronesix]

Neo,
Don't know about new/used ML scarcity or abundance in Australia?
Around here, finding a decent, used caplock with a good bore may be the easiest part. Given the current state of affairs, finding caps may be iffy. For the last 4-5 years, seems like every where I've looked there have been used 45, 50 and 54 caliber T/C (and similar Italian knockoff) caplocks coming out of the woodwork for very reasonable $. Probably a symptom of inline-itis. For hands-on buying, get one of the little bore lights first. The kind that drops down the bore so you can see the condition of the bore. Then if you have access to gunshows or decent gun stores or even local classifieds you can shop around. A used T/C "Hawken" 50 cal caplock with a good bore would be an excellent type to start with. The idea posted about one of the rifled muskets is also very good.

Oh and welcome aboard!!

[waksupi]

I would point out that a properly managed flintlock fires faster than a cap lock.

[10 ga]

Neo, Welcome...

I would point out that a properly managed flintlock fires faster than a cap lock. In good weather. Don't know what kind of weather ya have in Victoria, Down Under dere, but if wet and humid watch out for the rock locks.

When we all used a caplock and some rocklocks in camp was easy to tell which was trying to down a deer when the weather was bad, if ya heard the ffffffiiit-paboom it was Peter or Russel trying to get their gun to go off, if they even got as much as a hangfire. It's humid and nasty a lot in the fall in coastal Virginia, USA. LOL. If you're gonna do "Holy Black" remember it's the journey more than the end result. You will be challenged. They are all fun! Welcome to the addiction. 10 ga

[DIRT Farmer]

I hunt in the humid, wet and equally chalanging Ohio river valley. If you want dependability, learn to manage a flint lock. There is a reason that in some areas flint locks went out when cartridges came in.
When I was teaching instructor workshops in March in Southern Indiana, the workshops in March when we had drizzle and snow the caplocks were turned into air guns with CO2 dischargers and the flint locks ran even in the hands of students some of who had never fired a flint lock before. This happened several times. Even the humidity of early August mornings when the pan rips water, with proper management the students could get reliable ignition.
If you are seeing the flash of the pan you have yet learned to concentrate on the target. My dream gun is a side by side flint shotgun. I have shot matches with several, and have yet to see the pan fire from either side. Your line of sight should be well above the pan, if not the shot charge will be several feet above the target.

[Hanshi]

I would point out that a properly managed flintlock fires faster than a cap lock.



With all due respect, waksupi, taint so. And I'm a flint man, too. Slo-mo test video has shown that over and over.:coffeecom

[Alan]

And wet isn't the bane of Flintlocks, high wind is.

[ogre]

I would point out that a properly managed flintlock fires faster than a cap lock.

I don't believe that ANY flintlock, regardless of tuning or maintenance, is faster then my underhammer 62 caliber caplock.

[Wooly]

I have a custom 50 caliber Southern Mountain Rifle, flint of course. Learning to shoot a rock gun will make you a better shot,due to the rare hangfire or flash in the pan. But I also believe it is AS fast as a cap gun. A good Siler lock will fire upside down if it was tuned properly. That is fast enough. There is also the added fun of burning the shooter to your right,if they have earned it. I used to rendezvous & the occasional fool got burned for poor manners,etc.

[GARD72977]

I don't think that most of the replies help the OP. I would look for a cheap T/C and start there. Use if for a while and pass it on with out taking much if any loss.

[PTS]

My first black powder gun was a Pedersoli Kentucky .50 cal flintlock purchased from Cabelas. There was a learning curve to it, but once I discovered that Tom Fuller English Flints, 5/8" square worked well than the learning curve accelerated quickly. I now own 3 Pedersoli muzzle loaders-2 flint and 1 perc. Pedersoli makes a high quality gun at a medium range price. Most are accurate reproductions. My Kentucky goes off reliably, even in wet, humid weather. When hunting I do periodically change the 4F in the pan but not sure if I even need to. I recently bought the .50 cal perc Country Hunter from Cherrys for about $270, which is about half of what they used to be. Short guns, but good tree stand guns. I advocate Pedersoli muzzle loaders-they will last a lifetime. 1” in 48” twist will shoot roundball and lead conicals (hollow-based) very well. Pedersoli guns are proof-tested to a national Italian standard.

For me personally I would learn more by buying a complete gun first and learning it well. I believe that would help me be a better kit-builder. Keep us posted, Neo.

[waksupi]

I don't believe that ANY flintlock, regardless of tuning or maintenance, is faster then my underhammer 62 caliber caplock.

Rummage around on Google, and on this board. There was a scientific study done on it, and yes, the flinter is faster. With a cap lock, the hammer must fall, ignite the cap, and direct the flame into the nipple before the charge ignites. With a flintlock, the spark goes directly to the charge. I notice a very definite lag on a cap lock between cap ignition, and firing.

[Sportsman Matt]

Tough question. Main thing is what are you going to use it for?

Hunting, I would go with an inline or percussion cap rifle.
Save the tougher stuff for later as you progress in the hobby.
Match shooting or reinactments, that's a whole other can of worms.
Also some older designs get more complex, which translates into less shooting and more preparation.

My first rifle was a cva frontier carbine. Nice short barreled deer gun. Then I built a cva Kentucky rifle. Then I built a shot barreled carbine from parts, and a couple cap and ball revolvers, and now I'm shooting a cva buckhorn magnum with the 209 primers and I purchased the conversion breechplug for #11 caps for it also.

And don't fall for the BS about you can't shoot a patched round ball out of a fast twist barrel. I'm running 1" groups at 25 yards with 30 grains of 777 loose powder. And 1-2" groups at 50 yards with Power belts and Hornady FPB bullets, pushed with 80 grains of 777 loose powder. Tough part is my experimentation has been hindered by the arctic weather here in New England, so I can't really see the full potential of this particular inline, all I know is the Kentucky rifle I built shoots a 3-5" group at 25 yards, and still trying to find the right combination of powder, patch, and ball.

Now as for cost, I picked up my Buckhorn complete rifle kit less primers and powder for $150 at Dicks Sporting Goods back in January. A kit will run you $200-600+ plus time, labor, and the extra tools and finishes to complete it to your liking. Add in the accessories to shoot it, and you'll be adding another $100 on to that.

And for cleaning and clearing the gun, I love the inline. Stuck ball or bullets, just pull the breech plug and push them out. And you can check the rifling without having to carry a bore scope either. Downfall is they don't look like a traditional muzzleloader, but then again, Jean Samuel Pauley doing his inventiveness of a breech loading paper cartridge with an attached priming disk, also invented the inline rifle action back around 1810-1815.

Good luck and let us know what you decide on.

[fouronesix]

Sportsman Matt,
I think Neo got his muzzleloader yesterday.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?185591-This-a-photo-of-my-first-muzzle-loader-plus-i-need-somevload-data

[ogre]

Rummage around on Google, and on this board. There was a scientific study done on it, and yes, the flinter is faster. With a cap lock, the hammer must fall, ignite the cap, and direct the flame into the nipple before the charge ignites. With a flintlock, the spark goes directly to the charge. I notice a very definite lag on a cap lock between cap ignition, and firing.

Well......Per your direction I rummaged around on Google and the very first post I saw referred to tests which said the caplock was faster. In a flintlock the sparks DO NOT go directly to the charge as a general rule (although they can.) As a general rule the sparks go to the pan where they set off the priming powder which flashes through the flash hole into the main charge.

In my underhammer the nipple is threaded directly into the barrel. When the cap is struck the flash goes straight through the nipple into the charge.

Friend, you may believe with all your heart that the flinter is faster then my underhammer caplock but I do not. Not that it matters anyway. Both are fun and both get the job done.

[MaxJon]

I am looking at getting a muzzle loading rifle and I am not sure where to start like should I get a flintlock or a precision cap rifle also I looked some years ago and you could buy kit forms of rifles and I am not sure if you still can. Our can you buy replica rifles any help anyone can give me would be appreciated.:castmine:

Hi Neo, fellow Auzzie! Go check out the Lyman great plains rifles at Maills gunshop in Frankston. $798 last i checked. I have shot a mates in .50cal percussion and its awesome! My mates is the great plains hunter which has a faster twist barrel, more suited to bullet shooting. But the GPR has a slower twist suited to ball shooting. Depends which projectiles you want to shoot. In saying that tho my mates shoots balls very well too! I hope to get one real soon!

[Good Cheer]

Based upon personal experience, I think you should start out with a 2nd hand Thompson Center Renegade .54 caliber flintlock.

TC is awesomely made American reliability.
.54 will slay anything you want to get in range of.
The TC barrels are made to work with round ball and also with various heavier bullets.
The Renegade stock geometry can handle anything (round ball or conical) that you can shoot without unpleasantly damaging yourself.
The butt plate isn't a crescent moon shoulder destroyer.
Alternative barrels can be had, though the supply is shrinking.
The flintlock system of ignition is inherently less prone to hang fire problems than percussion.

PS,
My brother's first muzzle loader was a .54 Renegade. He shot little groups at 100 yards once he figured out what it liked, bedded the barrel and put a tang peep sight on it.