12ga Paradox load data (low pressure slug loads) from book

[cpileri]

So I was reading my new copy of Wright's "Shooting the British Double Rifle" and its very good. Highly recommended. In the back, he lists some pressure tested paradox loads.

Where most of the British double rifle loads for 12bore fall outside the normal operating pressures for our standard 12 ga shotguns, the paradox loads are low pressure. Here are a few examples (note pressure listed is in tpsi= tons per sq inch, which accroding to convert-me.com is simply double the psi times 1000, note if in fact the 't' is British long tonnes, then its a bit more than double factor)

Win case, guilandi wad w petals cut off, Universal clays 27gr, 750gr slug, 1137fps, 3.2tpsi= 6400psi (7168psi if British long tonnes)

Win case, 1 oz wad w petals cut off, Blur Dot 34gr, 735gr slug, 1100fps, 3tpsi= 6000psi (6720psi if brit long tonnes)

and interestingly this one:
Fed Paper case, Win 209 Primer, ccard and cork wads, Unique 21.5-24.5gr, 740gr slug, 1020fps (not sure which powder charge for this velocity and pressure), then lists pressure as "not tested" but credits Sherman Bell w this load and its long track record of safety.

Well..
in this very forum, member Greg5728, helps out w the above load by posting:

2.5" federal paper case, Win 209 primer, 22.0grain Alliant Unique powder, .135" nitro card, .625" cork, 740gr paradox style bullet, 980 FPS at 6960 PSI.(from Armbrust labs)

which fits right in w the above data.

Just thought I would share. I've taken an interest in heavy slugs lately.

C-

[junkbug]

So;
Will a rifled choke tube stabilize these beasts? Are they accurate? Even compared to standard foster slugs out of the same gun?

Thanks for any insight.

[longbow]

Well, that's a good question! I have not yet tried a rifled choke tube but the Paradox guns used aggressive ratchet rifling, and choked, that went down as tight as 0.690" (so I understand) so lands and grooves cut in a tapered choke to progressively squeeze the Paradox bullet down. Now these bullets also had fairly narrow driving bands and very deep groove between so lead had somewhere to go.

Ross Seyfried wrote a good article on how he finally, after very much work, managed to get good accuracy from an original Paradox gun. IIRC his group size was something like 5" at 100 yards ~ I would have to look up the article.

If memory serves, his load was 21.5 grs. Unique under a 740 gr. Paradox bullet. Again, I would have to dig up the article to be sure.

I have heard of a variety of twist rates used in these old guns ranging from around 1:38" to 1:100" but I am no expert. Certainly slow twist of about 1:100" to 1:120" is typical of appropriate twist for round ball or "square" slug which the Paradox bullets were (short and fat).

Modern choke tubes have very shallow rifling and generally fast twists for sabot slugs. They might work and some claim success with them but I suspect if they worked well there would be more in use and less discussion on how to get good slug accuracy without a fully rifled barrel.

My plan if my latest Brenneke style slugs don't hold up accuracy to 100 yards is to build a rifling bench to make slow twist, deep grooved, rifled choke tubes.

In any case, if is worth a try using a rifled choke tube. Paradox moulds are available and also 0.735" round balls should work. One fellow reported good accuracy with 0.735" round ball and rifled choke tube some time ago. However, he noted that the boolit torque really cinched in that choke tube!

That's about all the insight I have.

Longbow

[junkbug]

Thank you Longbow. I have a 20 ga Rem 1100 with a rifled choke tube. When I bought it, the tube was so tight it had t go to a gunsmith to loosen. Now I remeove it after every desion with slugs and apply anti-sieze.

I was just beginning to get a feel for its accuracy with factory Foster slugs when the ammo crunch hit. I was OK to 50 yards, but I only had a few to try, so it wasn't enough to document. Perhaps I'll buy a round ball mols and try it using shot cups. .575" for a 20 ga. seems about right, but I remain open to advice.

Thanks again.

[cpileri]

As for accuracy, its hard to compare a paradox barrel to a rifled choke without shooting them side by side. The paradox, as stated, had progressive depth of grooves, that is they started out very shallow and got deeper ( that is, more constriction ir choke- like) as they neared the muzzle. The paradox also had generally more gradual twist rates. Still the book describes being happy to regulate both barrels to a six inch group at 100 yds, 3 inches group from each barrel. So if pur modern choked single barrel shotguns can do 3- inches at 100 yds with these, we would be in the ballpark. Not sure what drop figures we would see w a 730-740 gr .735" slug at 100yds w muzzle velocity ~1050fps, but i bet its fairly decent. Still, accuracy is accuracy and that big slug has alot of energy on it. C-

[cpileri]

found another one, similar but still...

. 740 725gr slug
AA case trimmed to 2 1/2,
Winchester White wad with the petals cut off,
two 1/8 Ballistic Products felt wads
23 grs of Unique
roll crimp

So its close to the greg5728 load above. But slightly difft components might open the options to more shooters.

Now, if only i could find a few .736-7 slugs...

C-

[longbow]

It appears that they may not be a while but when they are:

http://www.dixieslugs.com/products.html

Also:

http://www.accuratemolds.com/catalog.php?page=13

Not Paradox style but I bet Tom could cut to original Paradox specs if you want and James (Dixie Slugs) posted drawings.

Longbow

[cpileri]

Thanks!
I wonder if Accurate can cut the 73-570S or -700S to any diameter? from .729 to .737?
I suppose I could call after the holiday weekend...
C-

[longbow]

Best to e-mail Tom. He is very quick to respond.

Tom can cut any diameter you want and his moulds are extremely nice. I ordered a mould for my .44 Marlin at 0.433" minimum and it casts at 0.4330"/0.4335". That is perfect for my 0.4315" groove diameter and the mould is beautiful.

Longbow

[cpileri]

I checked the website, and I can get any size just by clicking buttons.

He does mention that he needs to knwo the alloy: what if I dont know? or may change it up over time?

I'll email him this (will pretty it up for literary sake):

a 2-cavity; with one style the 73-570-S and one 73-770-S, both at .737 diameter for an overbored 12ga I have.

Once concern I have is the alloy type: I have not settled on which alloy yet. Will I still be able to make an order that will suit me (admittedly a judgement call, so I rely on experience)?

Basically, I am looking into slugs for a 12ga that measures .737 cylinder bore.

If the mold cavities are cut to .737 and pure lead shrinks the most, I should be Ok with all but the hardest alloys, correct?

Although I plan to use generally subsonic velocities (it’s a very light gun, abt 7 lbs), might a .736 cavity be better?

Many thanks!
C-


C-

[cpileri]

Also, Is there such a thing as a 12ga slug sizing die?

That is, if I get these .737 moulds, can I squish them down to .729 for use in other guns?

Other than getting a .729 barrel, and whacking the slug through the bore with a dowel and a hammer?

C-

[MOA]

Well, that's a good question! I have not yet tried a rifled choke tube but the Paradox guns used aggressive ratchet rifling, and choked, that went down as tight as 0.690" (so I understand) so lands and grooves cut in a tapered choke to progressively squeeze the Paradox bullet down. Now these bullets also had fairly narrow driving bands and very deep groove between so lead had somewhere to go.

Ross Seyfried wrote a good article on how he finally, after very much work, managed to get good accuracy from an original Paradox gun. IIRC his group size was something like 5" at 100 yards ~ I would have to look up the article.

If memory serves, his load was 21.5 grs. Unique under a 740 gr. Paradox bullet. Again, I would have to dig up the article to be sure.

I have heard of a variety of twist rates used in these old guns ranging from around 1:38" to 1:100" but I am no expert. Certainly slow twist of about 1:100" to 1:120" is typical of appropriate twist for round ball or "square" slug which the Paradox bullets were (short and fat).

Modern choke tubes have very shallow rifling and generally fast twists for sabot slugs. They might work and some claim success with them but I suspect if they worked well there would be more in use and less discussion on how to get good slug accuracy without a fully rifled barrel.

My plan if my latest Brenneke style slugs don't hold up accuracy to 100 yards is to build a rifling bench to make slow twist, deep grooved, rifled choke tubes.

In any case, if is worth a try using a rifled choke tube. Paradox moulds are available and also 0.735" round balls should work. One fellow reported good accuracy with 0.735" round ball and rifled choke tube some time ago. However, he noted that the boolit torque really cinched in that choke tube!

That's about all the insight I have.

Longbow

I realize this is an older topic from last summer, but in reading back through some of the topics this one had some interest since I read and post, (more read than post) on a site that is specific for large bore rifles which includes paradox long guns. THE MENTION OF USING A SCREW IN CHOKE was broached, and it was said that when a slug passes through the choke it could tighten the choke to such a degree as to make it impossible to remove except with the help of a gunsmith..JUST FYI.

[Greg5278]

Yes, you can make a 12ga sizing Die. The easiest way is to remove the Threaded Bushing from your Reloading Press. The
ID of the Bushing is threaded 7/8"0-14. The OD is Usually 1.250", but the threads can be Coarse or Fine, depending on the brand and Age. I think I also sent you a load for my 880gr slug at Subsonic Velocity using Longshot powder. I seem to recall it6 was around 8000+ PSI.

Accurate Molds should be able to cut any Diameter you want. I use Wheelweght alloy with 2% Tin. Thats easy to make, and resonably hard as cast. If your require more Hardness it can be heat treated. Most WW that I have used has enough Arsenic to heat treat.
Greg
AKA 12 Bore

[longbow]

MOA:

While I have no personal experience, I have read exactly that... at least some styles of choke tube tighten up so much as to cause distortion of the threaded portion of the barrel and require significant effort to remove.

James Gates of Dixie slugs has also posted about this.

If I do get around to it, my plan is to make a Cutts compensator type muzzle brake and screw in chokes with a large shoulder to act as a stop so the threads do not take the torque.

So far my Brenneke slugs are not consistent enough though I have some more testing to do before I throw in the towel. I am sure I can make Brenneke style slugs as well as Brenneke and get the same accuracy but I am not so sure I can do it at home with limited resources and money in a cost and time effective way. So far I have been trying to stick to readily available components and a "reasonable" amount of time and effort per slug.

If I fail to reach my accuracy goal in this fashion, a rifled choke tube is next on the list ~ deep wide grooves, narrow lands, slow twist, possibly choked.

Longbow

[cpileri]

Greg,
So if I can get some 1.25" OD threaded pipe and thread it to ???what externally??? and ream the inside to a smoothe .737 or whatever, I will have my own sizing die for use in my reloading press? Sounds doable, if not by me then by some machinist at least.

Or maybe an outfit like smallpartsDOTcom or onlinemetalsDOTcom will make on for me. Have to check.
C-

[Greg5278]

You can use 1.25" threaded Rod, and then drill, Ream and Hone the ID to what you need. You will need a taper to help guide the slug into the Die. A sharp Shoulder will shave Lead. The other part you will need is a Pusher that snaps into the Ram of the Press. Mine has a Pusher that is retained just like a Shellholder.
There are some Members on the Forum that should be able to help you fabricate 12 ga sizing Die.
Greg
AKA 12 Bore