Questions on processing range scrap

[grimace1]

Just to start off, I'm a long time reloader but just getting started with casting. I joined the local gun club, and went to the range to see what I could scrounge. In about a half hour using a cat litter scoop, I picked up about 40 pounds of scrap. I think I will be able to get all I need for my casting with no problems. However, I'd like to ask for advice from those of you with more experience in processing range scrap.

First, how much cleaning do I need to do. I'm planning on washing it off, but I don't know if it needs to be extremely clean, or if a small amount of dirt will flux off. Secondly, how meticulous do I need to be in separating out undesirable scrap. I know that copper will float and can be skimmed off. I'm assuming that steel jacketed bullets or steel cores are bad, and I am planning on using a magnet to try to get all of them out. Is there anything else I need to do? Finally for now, are there any other traps I should know about? Advice is greatly appreciated.

[slim1836]

Be real careful washing range scrap or you will get a visit from the tinsil fairy while smelting due to trapped moisture. Also, any full metal jackets need to be hit with a hammer to expose the lead in order for it to be recovered. The dirt will rise to the top and can be skimmed off.

Slim

[historicfirearms]

No need to wash it. Just put it in a large pot, then turn the heat on. The dirt and jackets will float to the top. There will be a lot of it, but lots easier than washing.

[SlippShodd]

The beauty of range scrap is that you don't have to be as fussy as when melting down wheelweights -- no zinc contamination to fear (as a rule). That said, you can be as OCD as you want with the stuff as your patience will allow. I don't wash it first, usually a few handlings of the stuff knocks off all the big chunks and I do try to pour as little free dirt in the pot as possible. Don't worry about the klingons, they'll float to the top to be skimmed with the jackets. I don't separate the steel since a lot of that has lead in it as well and they'll skim off with the copper. If you're anal like me, you'll hand sort through the stuff and segregate all the cast boolits from the jacketed, and toss any jackets without lead attached to them in the copper bucket. The cast gets ingoted separately to be blended back together later (I like a 3 parts jacket alloy to 1 part cast alloy, plus a little tin for my pistol boolits; it's not for everybody, but I like it). I also sort out all the totally jacketed stuff that didn't rupture anywhere on the trip to the berm, smack them with a ball peen hammer 'til they split and then add them back to the bunch.
Smelt it outside, don't use your casting pot (especially if it's a bottom pour), use lots of sawdust to flux, stir in a little parafin if you choose and start skimming with a metal cat littler scoop or a dollar store stainless steel soup skimmer. I drop all the skimmings into a metal bucket with authority to knock any molten stuff off that's still clinging. When the jackets are all out, stir and flux well, skim off the dross with a metal spoon and drop that in a steel soup can or such. When the dirt and debris are gone, ingot up the melt.
When the jackets are cool, run a big magnet through them several times to get all the steel out and save that in your steel scrap bucket. In the bottom of the bucket of jackets will be some splatters of melted material you can separate out and toss in the dross can. The copper jackets go into the copper scrap bucket and can be sold to the local recycler (typically #2 or dirty copper price (somewhere around $2.50# currently)) when you've amassed enough to make it worth the trip. The steel takes a while to build up, unless like me you're constantly scrapping something magnetic, but a bucket of that usually pays for the gas to the scrap yard.
Here's the part where I make so many of our members crazy. When I've amassed 5 pounds or so of dross and other "shake", I go through the smelt process with it again, pour off the melt and ingot it up with a "drossy" label on it. My intent there is to recover some of the other desireable elements that may have gotten away from me initially. I'm always a bit surprised at the amount of useable alloy I reclaim this way. I know, I know. I'm nuts. But I hate wasting even a little useful metal, particularly so these days when the sources for cheap or free are so few and far between.
The dirt and remaining dross get trashed. Figure on losing 15 to 20% of your starting weight (the scrap, not your body weight) from jackets and dirt and dross. Wear appropriate safety gear: leather gloves, safety glasses or eyeglasses and full face shield, long sleeves and pants, a fire resistant apron is nice, good shoes or boots. Start with the scrap in a cold pot so any trapped moisture has a chance to cook off before the lead melts.
I know I'm forgetting something, but somebody else will notice and chime in.
Have fun, welcome to the madness.

mike

[175lt2]

I recently reclaimed over a thousand pounds of range scrap from my club's indoor range, No fancy equipment or technique, I used a turkey fryer propane burner with a steel 5 gal bucket on top, Run the burner full blast shovel in the scrap lead, sand, jackets, target pieces and all. stir well, the lead will sink and all the other stuff will rise to the top or burn, just skim it off and ladle some lead out and pour into your ingot mold.
If you choose to go this route be careful how full you make the bucket, a half full bucket weighs about 150 lbs not all burner stands will hold that kind of weight. Oh and wear a respirator, the smoke and ash from all the target bits is pretty nasty.

[grimace1]

Thanks for the advice, everyone. I'm glad I read the advice against washing the lead, I knew water and molten lead didn't mix, but I didn't think about moisture being caught in the scrap. I have tomorrow off, so I'm going to take a shovel and seive back to the range and see if I can round up a couple hundred pounds so it will be worthwile to smelt it.

[tomme boy]

If the range you are getting your lead from has people using the clay burds for target, make sure to get that out before you melt it down. If you don't, the clay will cover all of your jackets and stick to the bottom of the pot. You will have to grind off the slag to get it off the pot. If you are taking the scrap jackets into reclaim some $, you do not want that black clay covering all of the jackets. Wood and paper leave it. It will burn off.

[WHITETAIL]

After I gather my range scrap.
I do wash it.
I dump it out on my drive way.
spread it out, anduse the hose
on it.
Then let the sun dry it.
Then it gets pick up with a shovel.
and in to a bucket it goes.
Then it is stored with out a lid for a year.
Then next spring I smelt and clean.:cbpour:

[Nose Dive]

Yea...I water wash range scrap... get buckets of it... spread on drive way as all others do...water wash and drain down. Next day,,,shovel up into pot...fill it up. Full... then put heat on ...slow and low... let the water 'cook off'...go slow,,,heat up gently....I put flux in at the start...saw dust...and go slow...don't mix until things begin to 'slump down' and NEVER...NEVER add more scrap to the pot!... Cook off one batch...flux...flux...flux... get dross out and put into ingots...EMPTY POT...then do it all again in a clean and dry pot. do it until the drive way is clear.... NEVER...NEVER add washed scrap to a hot pot..

Fill the pot..go up slow...flux...do NOT get in a 'hurry' and add cold scrap to a hot pot. you will be fine.

Nose Dive.

Cheap. Fast. Good. Kindly pick two.

[btroj]

I washed mine the first time. Decided it was too much extra work. The dirt skims off so easily.

[grimace1]

I went back to the indoor range this morning with a shovel and my brass sifter. Just getting the top layer next to the back wall, I filled a 5-gallon bucket in 30 minutes. I also checked out the outdoor range. The pistol berms look as though they have never been touched, so there are probably tons there. One other question arose. The sand in the indoor range has a lot of small rocks in it. I picked out all I could, but there are still quite a few rocks in the lead scrap. Will the rocks float so they can be skimmed, or will I need to resort the scrap before i smelt it?

[btroj]

Rocks will float, they are far less dense than lead. Flux really well.

[SlippShodd]

Rocks will float,

"Sir Bedevere: No, no. What else floats in water?
--Bread.
--Apples.
--Very small rocks.
...
--Lead! Lead!
--A Duck.
Sir Bedevere: ...Exactly. So, logically...
--If she weighed the same as a duck... she's made of wood.
Sir Bedevere: And therefore...
...A witch!"

...sorry.

mike

[grimace1]

Thanks, slippshodd, you saved me from almost certain temptation.....

[Jeffrey]

SlippShodd, Grimace, I was right there with you. Glad to see I'm not the only one with an interesting sense of humor. "It's a flesh wound!" J

[Sergeant Earthworm]

I never wash range scrap, not really necessary and you have to let it dry for a very long time to avoid moisture in the melt. Just a leeetle tiny bit of water can cause the whole business to go kaboom.

When I'm ready to melt it down, I just put the scrap into a plastic coffee can about ten pounds at a time, shake it for about 15-20 seconds which causes the dirt and such to settle to the bottom. Fill the pot to where it is heaping, turn on the heat, and in a few minutes the jackets and junk float to the top to be skimmed off. Flux, skim, repeat, and make ingots. Test for hardness if necessary for what you are casting, add lead or tin to make it softer or harder as needed.

Make sure you have very good ventilation, doing it outdoors is best.

[1Shirt]

I do wash mine. I punch a bunch of holes in the bottom on a tin can, set it in the sink and run water over it until it comes out clean. I smelt it in an old 20 lb. Lee, and get about 16 lb. on average per melting. Do maybe 125-150 lb a year that way. Good enough for what pistol blts I shoot.
1Shirt!

[fusionstar916]

I just did my first batch of range scrap today. Get rid of all clay bits if you can. Some of it turns into sulfur and stinks and they will form a mass that glues itself to your pot. Curse you non biodegradable clay pigeons.

I still have a bucket left.. I don't think I want to do anymore after this last batch. Dirty, time consuming, and I'm pretty sure I took in a lifetime supply of lead particulates. Even with a respirator. Anyone in Sacramento area want to smelt my scraps I pick up? You can have 1/3 of the ingots and all of the copper. I like collecting, casting, and shooting them. Smelting them is not my thing.

[btroj]

I don't notice all that. I fill a Dutch oven, crank p the fire, and walk away. After 15 to 20 minutes it is beginning to melt. I skim off the jackets, stir, flux. Then I pour ingots.

Dirty? Yes. Time consuming? If you just sit and watch. I cast, clean the garage some, or do other things to kill time.

I did over 400 pounds of scrap last year, want to get over 750 this year.

It is what you make of it.

[evan price]

Use lots of flux. Used motor oil works great, and stir with the 5-gallon paint stir sticks (the wood ones) you get for free from the big box home improvement store.

[Wal']

I do wash mine. I punch a bunch of holes in the bottom on a tin can, set it in the sink and run water over it until it comes out clean. I smelt it in an old 20 lb. Lee, and get about 16 lb. on average per melting. Do maybe 125-150 lb a year that way. Good enough for what pistol blts I shoot.
1Shirt!


I would be checking the drain gooseneck under your sink, you'll find quite a build up of fine lead particles there .................don't ask [smilie=1:

[shredder]

"Sir Bedevere: No, no. What else floats in water?
--Bread.
--Apples.
--Very small rocks.
...
--Lead! Lead!
--A Duck.
Sir Bedevere: ...Exactly. So, logically...
--If she weighed the same as a duck... she's made of wood.
Sir Bedevere: And therefore...
...A witch!"

...sorry.

mike

Who are you good sir knight, one who is so wise in the ways of science?

[a.squibload]

..., and I'm pretty sure I took in a lifetime supply of lead particulates. Even with a respirator...

You won`t ingest any lead particles unless you lick your fingers while sorting range scrap.
To get lead fumes from smelting you`d have to boil the lead, can`t be done with our type
of equipment. Smoke & other fumes might be present, respirator can`t hurt.

[johnstonab]

I do wash mine, here in VA we have clay everywhere. I just started using range scrap and yesterday and today I got 6 pounds of mud/clay on my boots just walking to the berm. the bullets I pulled out we're the same way. Dumped them in the driveway and sprayed them off while washing my boots. I start the fire on low to heat the water out then turn it up. If you do this there should be no water left as it evaporates a few hundred degrees lower than lead melts. As stated don't put wet bullets in a hot pot (frying pan in my case) and ABSOLUTELY NEVER in molten lead. Out of 33#s pick up this weekend, 25# of it is ingoted and in my ammo can.

[fusionstar916]

You won`t ingest any lead particles unless you lick your fingers while sorting range scrap.
To get lead fumes from smelting you`d have to boil the lead, can`t be done with our type
of equipment. Smoke & other fumes might be present, respirator can`t hurt.

Hopefully that was the case, I never touched my face and washed my hands in D-Lead soap,
washed my clothes in D-Lead detergent, and took a shower with D-Lead body wash and shampoo
I still need to wash off my respirator with D-lead before i use it again.

I had a huge headache afterwards. Probably from the fumes of clays and plastic wads bits burning.

I took twice the amount of Vitamin C, Zinc, and multi-vitamin supplements afterwards than I usually take on a daily basis.
Been chugging orange juice, and destroyed a box of Walmart brand Total cereal in 5 days by my self.
Now I'm feeling much better.

[Stephen Cohen]

one other thing to watch out for is live ammo, for some reason people throw dud rounds into berms, I put heavy lid on my pots in case I miss one.

[grimace1]

I've seen several threads in which it was recommended that one use a paint stir stick to stir the melt. At the risk of sounding dumb, what is the purpose of this? Does the wood help to flux the lead? I'd think that the heat would cause the wood to catch fire.

[DukeInFlorida]

Here goes..... I am VERY fussy with my ingots. From the sounds of it, I would NOT WANT some of the ingots that some of you produce. Not clean enough for my guns.

Here's the basis for how I do it: I want as close to PURE alloy as I can get. NO GRIT remaining. NONE. Every bit of grit that you allow to enter an ingot becomes abrasive that wears out your barrel. At a commercial lead processing plant, they use very expensive ceramic filters that get all grit out. We hobby smelters can't afford the expensive ceramic filters, so we have to FLUX like crazy to get the lead as clean as possible.

So, here's my system:

1) I always leave the last inch of molten lead in the pot from the previous smelt. I allow that to cool, and mark what it is, with a Sharpie. Next time I smelt that alloy, I put that disk back in the pot, which maintains 100% contact with the smelting pot, and therefore melts fast, giving me a good lead puddle for the boolits/range lead to melt into. If you skip that step, the edges of the range lead have little contact with the smelting pot, and will take longer to start melting.

2) I add a couple of inches of range lead into the pot, and allow that to come up to temperature and melt. I DO NOT fill up the smelting pot........ To do so would introduce too much copper jackets and other debris that needs to get skimmed off. I do my adding in layers, and that goes very fast. Add/Skim/Add/Skim, etc. Continue adding and skimming the big stuff off the top until you have a pot pretty full. The previous comment about the strength of the stand is worth paying attention to. One summer day a couple of year ago, I was smelting 200 pound batches and was horrified when I noticed that the stand leg had started to sink into the hot top, and the stand was dangerously leaning. I had to be very careful to not knock it over while fluxing. Once you have a safe pot full of molten lead, with only the BIG STUFF skimmed off, it's time to start fluxing.

3) The fluxing is the process or technique for separating the grit and other small debris from the metal. You want to end up with as clean a metal as you can, for the sake of the longer life of your guns. The lead is not only heavy, but very dense. The larger stuff that you skimmed off had enough flotation ability to float itself to the surface. The smaller grit does NOT have enough flotation to push itself easily through the dense metal. That's what the fluxing techniques does........ it opens pathways through the dense metal for the small grit to make it's way to the surface.

4) Stirring and the addition of fluxing agents assists with making pathways. It also, and this is an important aspect of fluxing........... it also provides "bonding agents" for the small grit particles to stick and adhere to, clumping them into bigger pieces, for easier removal. So, stirring with anything, a metal spoon, a wooden stick.... when done correctly, will open eddy currents (think whirlpool action) that will allow the grit to make it's way to the top for skimming. And, agents like sappy pine, motor oil, pine sticks (dual purpose), old candle wax, parrafin wax, etc act as perfect fluxing agents for the other part of the fluxing action. Pine saw dust is just about one of the best fluxing agents you could use. It's sappy enough to provide the sap agent that allows the grit to stick to it. And, the small particle size assists with creating nice pathways to the surface, when stirred into whirlpools through the lead. Hard wood saw dust isn't as good, but better than nothing. Get bales of pine sawdust at your local feed and grain store. They use it as horse bedding. You could also use pine shavings, but it's not quite as good as pine sawdust.

5) I grab a handful of pine sawdust, and toss it onto the surface of the molten lead. I use a stainless steel slotted spoon with a long handle (bbq type spoon) and start stirring right away. I stir right to the bottom of the pot, pulling up all the grit I can from the bottom. Keep stirring.... The sawdust will eventually become charcoal, and will soon burn into ash. You want to skim the charcoal and all the grey powder grit that floats to the top off the lead with the edge of your spoon, before it turns to ash. Go slow with moving the edge of the spoon through the lead, and you will see that it's easy to pick up the skimmed material. Pull it slowly towards the edge of the pot, and turn your wrist, and you'll see the grit (grey powder) in the spoon. When you are done with the initial sawdust flux, the top surface of the lead should be somewhat shiny. However, the lower portions of the lead are still nasty! I do this sawdust flux about 4-5 times, or until I start to see dramatic reductions in the amount of grit I am picking off the surface. For some really sandy range lead, I have been known to flux with the pine sawdust as many as 10 times before moving to the next step. Be as fussy as you want to be. It's your lead! And, your guns!

6) Once I have achieved some level of cleanness with the pine saw dust fluxing, I switch over to paraffin wax, which is finer agent, and will get more of the smaller particles out. Old candles are always plentiful. Yard sales are a great place to get them for almost free. I cut them into peanut sized pieces, and toss a piece onto the top of the molten lead. The candle wax will start to melt, and then, because of it's lower flame point, will burst into flame. Be aware it will happen, and don't get startled. The paraffin will consume itself almost completely (no ash), so be sure to stir whirlpools aggressively as soon as you can. Skim off whatever grit that develops, and repeat as many times as you feel that you need to to get to as clean as you'd like. I like to flux with paraffin wax 4-5 times. By then, the metal is pretty darn clean by my fussy standards. (including the pot surfaces, which I have been scraping the whole time)......

7) When using your ladle to remove the lead from the smelting pot, push the ladle through the surface of the lead, and allow the ladle to "back fill" with only shiny metal. Even though you have done this immense amount of fluxing, you will always see some additional crud floating to the surface as you ladle, and you want to avoid introducing that into the ingots you are making. The back filling technique with the ladle is the best way to keep the grit out of the ingots you are making. When you get to a point where the grit really starts to be a nuisance, and it will...... do some more paraffin fluxing.........

8) Continue making ingots until you get down to that 1" or so of lead left in the pot, and stop. Or, if you have more to smelt, stop making ingots when you have a couple of inches of lead still in the pot. That will give you the good lead puddle for melting.

Notes: Some folks have used motor oil as a fluxing agent. I have used it in tests and find it smelly and full of carcinogens. It works OK, but I still prefer to use the candle or store bought paraffin wax. The store bought version is usually sold in the jam making supplies area of the store. Comes in a one pound package of four blocks, and is very pure, and translucent clear. It's more expensive than cheap used candles. I'm already saving money making my own boolits, and I feel no compulsion to go extra cheap on fluxing agents. I want/demand very highly clean lead to run through my guns. Don't be in a hurry when smelting. It's hard on the back, and hot on a summers day. I find that by pacing myself in a slower pace, I get better alloy because I am taking care to flux well. You cannot flux alloy too much.......... You just can't. The more, the better/cleaner the alloy will be. By constantly stirring, you will keep any tin and antimony in the mix. You can't really skim out those metals, nor do you want to. However, if you stop stirring aggressively, and perhaps have the heat too high, you will allow the tin and antimony to come out of solution with the lead, where it will float to the surface in it's typical yellow/gold and purple hues. Don't skim off the yellow/golds or the purples. Turn the heat down a bit, and stir those back into the lead.

My advice has been primarily relating to range lead because that's what you asked about. The same process is used when I smelt clip on wheel weights. However, it's especially important to add weights slowly to the molten puddle to avoid accidentally melting in any zinc to the pot. Zinc will float, but only if you have added a thin enough layer to allow them to float. If you bury zinc weights under 60 pounds of lead weights, and have the pot too hot, you will get zinc contamination. So, my advice for adding new material to the pot slowly and in thin layers holds true whether for range lead or for wheel weights.

I've touched on many of the points that others have made, but I don't think anyone else has covered it as completely, in one place as I have. My system isn't perfect, but it works really well for me. I get good clean alloy. And, I know my bores (barrels) will have longer lives from the extra trouble I take getting the clean alloy.

Perhaps this post/thread might make a good sticky. I'd be happy to amend my post should anyone think of anything additional idea that would improve my system even more. We have many great casters here. And their system works for them. I take no exception to any of that. However, in my quest for CLEAN alloy, my system gets me there.

Glen Fryxell has an awesome chapter on this subject, and I would recommend that you read it, along with the rest of the book:

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_4_Fluxing.htm


Hope this is helpful to you.

[lmfd20]

:goodpost: Holy ----, wow.

[lmfd20]

Use lots of flux. Used motor oil works great, and stir with the 5-gallon paint stir sticks (the wood ones) you get for free from the big box home improvement store.
How much motor oil? Do start with the oil in the pot or stir in at some other point?

[DukeInFlorida]

All fluxing, using any fluxing agent, is done after the lead is all melted in the pot. In fact, for really dirty range lead (with lots of sand), about 15 minutes of stirring to make eddy currents to the bottom of the pot, even without fluxing, will get a lot of the sand grit floating on the top of the lead.

The amount of any flux, including motor oil, is just thin layer on top of the molten lead. So, a handful of sawdust is enough. A half ladle of motor oil is enough. A peanut sized chunk of candle wax or paraffin wax is enough, PER FLUX. You need to re-add flux every time you skim the grey stuff off the top, and keep fluxing until the grey powder is gone, gone, gone .... completely.....

[JWFilips]

DukeInMaine,
I really like your write up of your method of fluxing & cleaning the alloy. I have read as many as I can over the past three months ( and taken much to heart) but I have to say, you answered my unanswered questions of "how long" and "how much" one needs to flux to be sure the alloy is clean
Thank You

[DukeInFlorida]

Thanks. The how long and how much plays perfectly along with HOW TO........

If you're doing it correctly, the how long and how much are a personal matter.

As pointed out, I like really clean alloy, so I do it much longer than most people would.
And, every batch seems to be different than the previous. So, I keep going until the gray dust stops showing up.

[Curlymaple42]

I will second what Duke said. He is VERY anal about his lead being clean! Lol! Clean lead, clean dies, clean barrel. All the grit and **** will effect all future contact with metal!