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no34570
07-29-2007, 04:58 AM
Hi ya
I want to paper patch bullets for my .44 Mag Rossi M92 and also the .444 Marlin(I have not got the rifle yet).
What size do you think I should start off with?,I was thinking of a bullet around the .423 mark,any suggestions?
What is the nominal bore size for the .44 Mag and .444 Marlin?
I suppose I could get some under size molds and use them,or even a PP mold from NEI or Cast Bullet Engineering here in Australia.
Any help would be appreciated.
Cheers
no34570:castmine:

EDK
07-29-2007, 12:17 PM
www.shilohrifle.com/forums has a lot of information on paper patch. Look for Kurt and Orville especially.

A new book by Randolph Wright, LOADING AND SHOOTING PAPER PATCH BULLETS, A BEGINNER'S GUIDE, will probably become the "bible" for PP. It's extremely well written and profusely illustrated. Orville Loomer has a smaller book available from Shiloh also. Paul Matthews THE PAPER JACKET is also worth reading, but may be out of print. Mike Venturino has done some articles in RIFLE or HANDLOADER.

PP is getting a lot of interest for the BLACK POWDER CARTRIDGE RIFLE shooters. It's a lost technology, but some serious researchers are "re-inventing the wheel" and finding the accuracy and efficiency secrets thought to be lost. There were several people shooting PP at the Quigley Rifle Shoot at Forsyth, MT--every year a few more.

:castmine: :Fire:

leftiye
07-29-2007, 12:29 PM
I haven't paper patched anything yet. BTW, there are many threads here on this subject, so a search may edimicate you very well. IIRC, you size yer boolit about .002" under BORE (not groove) diameter and get a paper about .003" thick (25 lb. type paper) and cut it to make two complete wraps- with the ends tapered about 30 degrees in a trapezoid shape. Wide enough to make the corners at the butt end, and the shoulder or front driving band. Size the finished product about .002". I think the paper should be wet, and allowed to dry after wrapping. Then you lube the paper with a lube, or wax before sizing. Muy bueno for hunting loads with soft lead, and BP to clean fouling from the bore in repeated shots.

There is the chapter in Harrison's "Cast Bullets" book from the NRA on paper patching as another source of info.

That being said, teflon plumber's tape wrapped around the boolit twice does the same thing. Boolits will still deform at high pressures, so your alloy needs to be hard enough to withstand pressures that you choose to use with both methods or accuracy will go south.

9.3X62AL
07-29-2007, 12:29 PM
The abrupt rifling leade angles in most levergun throats (and in my Ruger #1/45-70) can really screw up PP jackets. The result was the most leaded-up barrel I've ever dealt with, bushed down to about 42 caliber. On the other side, some #358430's wrapped to .367" shot WONDERFULLY in my 9.3 x 62.

no34570
07-29-2007, 07:57 PM
www.shilohrifle.com/forums has a lot of information on paper patch. Look for Kurt and Orville especially.

A new book by Randolph Wright, LOADING AND SHOOTING PAPER PATCH BULLETS, A BEGINNER'S GUIDE, will probably become the "bible" for PP. It's extremely well written and profusely illustrated. Orville Loomer has a smaller book available from Shiloh also. Paul Matthews THE PAPER JACKET is also worth reading, but may be out of print. Mike Venturino has done some articles in RIFLE or HANDLOADER.

PP is getting a lot of interest for the BLACK POWDER CARTRIDGE RIFLE shooters. It's a lost technology, but some serious researchers are "re-inventing the wheel" and finding the accuracy and efficiency secrets thought to be lost. There were several people shooting PP at the Quigley Rifle Shoot at Forsyth, MT--every year a few more.

:castmine: :Fire:

EDK
Thanks for the reply,that new book of Randolph Wright,I have just got but have not had time to read it yet(just got it Friday) and I have THE PAPER JACKET by Paul Matthews,great book.
Had a quick look around at Shilo Forums,very good will keep me busy looking for info.
I paper -Patch already for my 45/70 with very good results,but the .44 Mag and .444 Marlin are new to me,hence why I wanted to know the bore size.
I get the bore size and groove diameter mixed up:roll:
Thanks for your time mate
Cheers
no34570:castmine:

no34570
07-29-2007, 08:02 PM
I haven't paper patched anything yet. BTW, there are many threads here on this subject, so a search may edimicate you very well. IIRC, you size yer boolit about .002" under BORE (not groove) diameter and get a paper about .003" thick (25 lb. type paper) and cut it to make two complete wraps- with the ends tapered about 30 degrees in a trapezoid shape. Wide enough to make the corners at the butt end, and the shoulder or front driving band. Size the finished product about .002". I think the paper should be wet, and allowed to dry after wrapping. Then you lube the paper with a lube, or wax before sizing. Muy bueno for hunting loads with soft lead, and BP to clean fouling from the bore in repeated shots.

There is the chapter in Harrison's "Cast Bullets" book from the NRA on paper patching as another source of info.

That being said, teflon plumber's tape wrapped around the boolit twice does the same thing. Boolits will still deform at high pressures, so your alloy needs to be hard enough to withstand pressures that you choose to use with both methods or accuracy will go south.

Leftiye
Thanks too mate for replying,I know all that what you posted,but just want to know what is the bore size for .44 mag and .444 Marlin,for I cannot find it anywhere,would it be .429?or is that the groove size?,I get them mixed up:roll:
I plan to use smokeless powder and maybe every now and then a bit of black.
Cheers mate
no34570:castmine:

no34570
07-29-2007, 08:17 PM
The abrupt rifling leade angles in most levergun throats (and in my Ruger #1/45-70) can really screw up PP jackets. The result was the most leaded-up barrel I've ever dealt with, bushed down to about 42 caliber. On the other side, some #358430's wrapped to .367" shot WONDERFULLY in my 9.3 x 62.

9.3x62AL
Thanks for replying,I have a Ruger No3 in 45/70 that I paper patch and find that the throat does not effect my patches and I get good accuracy out of it.
I used a Cast Bullet Engineering PP mold (adjustable) to cast my bullets,load is as follows
325gr CBE PP (Pure Lead)
51.0gr ADI AR-2208
Winchester cases and primers,shot with sandbags on a rest with a 2x7x40 scope and the best I could get after 2 hours of shooting was a grouping of 1.42 inches at nearly 100meters(93.5)Still was unburned powder in the barrel so was going to a faster powder,which I have not done yet.
I intend to PP for all my guns,.44 mag (Rossi L/A) .444 Marlin (When I get it) 3 of my .303 British,45/70,.356 Win and .307 Win as well as using cast/lubed bullets.
Thanks again mate
Cheers
no34570:castmine:

pdawg_shooter
07-30-2007, 08:18 AM
Slug your bore and size your bullets .0005 to .001 over bore dia. I patch with 16lb green bar computer paper. I have 3 lever actions and all love paper patch bullets.

leftiye
07-30-2007, 01:54 PM
34570, To measure your bore diameter you can use small hole gauges (pin gauges) for clarity I'm referring to cylindrical gauge blocks, not the adjustable small hole gauges. Simply keep working up or down in size until the next one larger won't go in.

Alternatively, get a rod with a slight taper and put it in the muzzle. Mark where it stops and measure with your mike on the small side of the mark and the edge of the anvils on the mark. This will work fine unless your muzzle is worn/tapered.

If you have even numbered rifling so that you can mesure the bottom of two opposing lands (grooves on a slug), then slug the barrel and measure the grooves with a good caliper. With S&W 5 groove rifling it's a little harder, but you acn get real close by measuring the grooves as close to directly across from each other as possibele (at the right side of one groove, and the left side of the other.

Also, you can measure individual land heights from a slug with a mike or caliper or mike, and subtract twice that measurement from your groove diameter.

no34570
07-30-2007, 08:48 PM
34570, To measure your bore diameter you can use small hole gauges (pin gauges) for clarity I'm referring to cylindrical gauge blocks, not the adjustable small hole gauges. Simply keep working up or down in size until the next one larger won't go in.

Alternatively, get a rod with a slight taper and put it in the muzzle. Mark where it stops and measure with your mike on the small side of the mark and the edge of the anvils on the mark. This will work fine unless your muzzle is worn/tapered.

If you have even numbered rifling so that you can mesure the bottom of two opposing lands (grooves on a slug), then slug the barrel and measure the grooves with a good caliper. With S&W 5 groove rifling it's a little harder, but you acn get real close by measuring the grooves as close to directly across from each other as possibele (at the right side of one groove, and the left side of the other.

Also, you can measure individual land heights from a slug with a mike or caliper or mike, and subtract twice that measurement from your groove diameter.

Leftiye
Thanks for replying,well I put a 44/40 J boolit & lubed it down the bore of my Rossi 92 .44 Mag and it was a snug fit,it would not fall down by itself,but when I got a wooden dowel I pressed it down the bore and it went down pretty easy with just me pushing down on it,when it came out the end in the chamber and I picked it up,it was just slightly marked by the bore(A couple of scratches).
Now the 44/40 is I think around the .426 diameter,would that be right?
My calipers battery was flat and I have not got another one yet:roll:
So you reckon by this go for a .426 diameter slug and paper patch it or go for a .427 diameter slug?:confused:
Cheers
no34570
:castmine:

no34570
07-30-2007, 08:51 PM
Slug your bore and size your bullets .0005 to .001 over bore dia. I patch with 16lb green bar computer paper. I have 3 lever actions and all love paper patch bullets.

pdawg
Thanks mate:-D
What sort of levers do you have? (not that it matters,they are all good)and what calibers do you have?
Cheers
no34570
:castmine:

The Dust Collector
08-03-2007, 10:51 PM
A commercial source for newly manufactured onion skin,you can go to a web sight by the name of The Papermill Store.
http://www.thepapermillstore.com/product.php?productid=9304
DUST

no34570
08-04-2007, 08:37 PM
Hey Dust
Thanks for the link,cheap to(even though it's in US dollars)Buffalo arms are selling 100% cotton paper(9lb) US $14.00 per 100 sheets I think.
I have enough 25% 9lb onion skin paper for at least the next 5 years.
Thanks again
no34570

longbow
09-23-2007, 12:06 PM
no34570:

I made a simple push out mould that I have used successfully. If you have a lathe or know someone with a lathe it is easy to make and .44 is big enough to use a boring bar then hone.

I cast to 0.421" then paper patch to 0.433" for a Marlin 1894 microgroove with groove diameter of 0.4315". It has a fairly large throat and I have loaded cast boolits up to 0.436" with no problem chambering. Paper patched boolits seem to need to be near groove diameter though to shoot well.

I have used several different types of paper with pretty good success - tracing paper at about 0.002", drafting velum at 0.004" and bond at 0.005" depending on boolit diameter and groove diameter. So far I have paper patched for 0.308 Winchester, .303 British, .44 Marlin and 12 gauge with a Lyman Foster slug.

I like the way the tracing paper wraps but it is thin so maybe another couple thou bigger would be good with the .44 boolits (say 0.423") or an extra wrap of the thinner paper adds about 0.003" to 0.004".

One thing I have noticed is that my mould makes a smooth sided slug and I was having trouble with the .303 British with that slug until I rolled grooves on it. I made a groove roller for another project so gave it a try on the .303 slugs and accuracy improved. I haven't tried it on the .44 slugs yet as they seem to shoot well but possibly the extremely shallow microgroove rifling plays a part here as it would be easy on the patch.

I will also try grooving the smooth .44 slugs which increases diameter by about 0.003" then paper patch with thin paper to groove diameter.

So far I have found that the Marlin seems to like paper patched at or a little above groove diameter and the .303 likes paper patched at groove diameter or 0.001" or so less. My guess is that throat diameter, rifling depth and leade play a significant role here.

Another comment I guess is that I had loaded similar designed un-patched boolits and worked up loads to loading table max. I used these same loads with paper patched boolits - 21 gr. H110 with 300 gr. paper patched and 24 gr. IMR 4227 with 250 gr. paper patched.

Also, all .44 boolits were ACWW/range scap mix - hardness appears to be a little less than ACWW but I don't have a hardness tester... yet.

Hardly definitive work and testing continues but maybe this will help.

Longbow

Digital Dan
10-24-2007, 03:03 PM
Use a lead ball or the bullet of about .430 diameter. If you're a little short on that, put it on a flat surface and tap it with a hammer lightly. It will grow a bit and serve your purpose. Use a soft face mallet to start the slug into the muzzle, then push it thru with a rod and flat tipped jag.

You will find some variation in bore/groove dims. with the .44. My own is .422/.430 (Ruger Rifle) My loads work well in a Ruger Red Hawk and patched loads work well thru lever guns in general in my experience. If you load with soft alloy or pure lead the dims. won't be that critical for the .44. Pressures are high enough the bullets will obturate sufficiently for fine accuracy. You may run into some issues of stripping with pure lead above 1600 fps...or not. You'll find out when you get there. No roll crimp fella, get yourself a taper crimp if you want this to work out. Li'l Gun and card wads help a .44 sing out of a rifle. If you have a fast enough twist I recommend a 300 grain bullet for the endeavor. Recoil will be....crisp.

yeahbub
11-16-2007, 04:16 PM
The toughest and most durable paper I've found is 100% rag drafting vellum in E-size sheets. Cut the strips from the end, not the side of the sheet so you can get some stretch as you roll it on and make the ends meet up perfectly. It's usually .0025 thick and 2 wraps stretched on wet will give you just under .010 increase in diameter. If possible, I'd start with a boolit .010 under groove dia., apply two wraps, let dry, and a single layer of quality teflon tape over the paper (not the 5 rolls/$1 stuff). Anoint with a smear of soft boolit lube, size .001-.002 over groove dia. (which embeds the teflon in the paper) and seat, possibly over a card wad/lube cookie for a healthy lube star on the muzzle. Paint the seated boolit with Lee Liquid Alox and it'll be just about water proof for field use.

Digital Dan
12-04-2007, 07:44 PM
Well, this one was water proof without the Alox. Loads be 4 yrs and 4 months old. 300 gr. pure, RNFB w/cardwad over 17.0 grains of Li'l Gun.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/muddler/PaperPatchDeer009.jpg

Hit the right foreleg bone, 3" of rib missing behind that and cleaned off the heart plumbing. Another rib on the offside and lodged in that shoulder. 259 grains recovered. Two hours in the rain before the shot.

Black Jaque Janaviac
01-04-2008, 07:35 PM
Well, I haven't patched for a .44 but I have patched for my .357 magnum Rossi M92.

It works. I can't say that I equal the best accuracy of a copper-clad bullet or even my most accurate nekid cast boolits, but I have seen minute-of-beer-can accuracy.

I use a 158 grain boolit and 17.4 grains Lil' Gun. They really whistle.

HERE'S SOMETHING TO CONSIDER: If you're gonna patch for a tube-fed lever action take into consideration the charge density and the amount of crimp! If you aren't running 100% load density and you do not crimp, you could push the bullets in the cases when you load 'em in the tube.

Also, my Rossi jams without crimping. I've found that if I use a regular grooved bullet I can crimp right over the crimp groove and it doesn't cut the patch. I will put a good bevel on the inside of the casemouth too.

no34570
01-12-2008, 07:41 AM
Use a lead ball or the bullet of about .430 diameter. If you're a little short on that, put it on a flat surface and tap it with a hammer lightly. It will grow a bit and serve your purpose. Use a soft face mallet to start the slug into the muzzle, then push it thru with a rod and flat tipped jag.

You will find some variation in bore/groove dims. with the .44. My own is .422/.430 (Ruger Rifle) My loads work well in a Ruger Red Hawk and patched loads work well thru lever guns in general in my experience. If you load with soft alloy or pure lead the dims. won't be that critical for the .44. Pressures are high enough the bullets will obturate sufficiently for fine accuracy. You may run into some issues of stripping with pure lead above 1600 fps...or not. You'll find out when you get there. No roll crimp fella, get yourself a taper crimp if you want this to work out. Li'l Gun and card wads help a .44 sing out of a rifle. If you have a fast enough twist I recommend a 300 grain bullet for the endeavor. Recoil will be....crisp.

DD
Thanks mate,sorry that it has taken awhile to answer,been busy and such,you know how it is I'm sure?[smilie=1:
Next chance I get I will do what you recommended and will see what the bore is then.
Thanks
no34570

no34570
01-12-2008, 07:45 AM
Longbow
Thanks for all your info mate,I'll use that for sure.
I really don't know anyone with a lathe,bugger
So .421 would that be around what the 444 would be would it?
Thanks mate
no34570

no34570
01-12-2008, 07:50 AM
Black jaque
I have been told and have seen that crimp is not very good for paper-patched bullets,when I loaded my first lot up for the 45/70 in my No3 and I crimped them,they where all over the place,but then I just left the crimp right out of the process and it improved a hell of a lot.

I have not been able to do anymore with paper-patching for sometime(Family) keeps me busy,even to go out hunting and thats not good.
Thanks for your take on this and your help,good on ya mate
cheers
no34570

longbow
01-12-2008, 01:20 PM
Well, I had a nice long reply going and somehow lost it!?! I was probably repeating myself anyway.

Mostly it was about boolit diameter.

I find it confusing that the general recommendations I have found are:

- as cast boolit at or slightly under bore diameter for BP with "soft" boolits - in fact many sources say that the finished patched boolit should push into the barrel by hand, so not much above groove diameter patched

- as cast diameter at or slightly larger than bore diameter for smokeless and "hard" boolits

The reasoning seems to be that BP will bump a boolit up to fill the grooves while smokeless won't - of course soft and hard lead will play a part here too.

What I don't understand is that if using a bore + diameter hard boolit and patching to groove diameter works with smokeless then why wouldn't it work for BP? I guess more accurately, why would you want to allow the boolit to "bump" up and give it a chance to do that unevenly?

I'm not going to argue (nor am I qualified to) as to whether this works or not - obviously it does but since the boolit "bumps" up to fill the grooves anyway what is the benefit? All I can think of is maybe with BP a slightly undersize boolit accomodates some fouling in the throat.

Anyway, my experience is with .30 cal (0.303 British and .308 Win) amd .44 Mag Marlin with smokeless loads and moderately hard boolits of ACWW and range scrap.

So far I have found that the .303 and .308 seem to like boolits of about bore diameter as cast and no less than groove diameter after patching.

The .303 seems to like 0.303"/0.304" as cast and patched to about 0.314" for 0.314" groove diameter.

The 0.308 has shot an as cast 0.301" boolit patched to 0.316" well - so mucho oversize. The 0.303 doesn't seem to like much over groove diameter.

The .44 mag Marlin as said before shoots well with 0.421" as cast boolit and patched to 0.432"/0.433". I will try a little larger as cast at 0.424"/0.425" to see how it goes.

Both my 0.308 and .44 mag have shallow rifling (roughly 0.004" and 0.0024" respectively) and the 0.303 British is quite deep. The shallower rifling seems to prefer a boolit patched somewhat oversize while the .303 with deeper rifling (about 0.006") sems to like the boolit patched to about groove diameter.

Well, I guess this was a long post after all.

I hope it helped.

Longbow

no34570
01-12-2008, 09:42 PM
Longbow
Thanks for all that,I was interested in the .303 patching that you had done,my 44 mag is in a Rossi 92 and my Marlin 444(yes,I finally got one)is in the micro-grooved version.

I found out when I patched my Ruger #3 in 45/70 that it did not like too much oversize with the patch,i went .451 bullet cast from CBE mould,a paper-patch mould and wrapped with onionskin paper that I got from Buffalo Arms in the US,to just over .458 and it loved it.
I just did not know what the bore size is for the 44 mag and 444 Marlin,but now I have something to work with and will also slug my bores.
Thanks mate,much appreciated
Dale
no34570

no34570
01-18-2008, 06:57 AM
Well
I slugged the bore of my 444 Marlin with the 1:38 Twist,it's bore .423 -.424 groove .4305
I was wondering,could I get some .427 dia moulds or some .429-.430 that I have on hand and size them down to say .424 or even .423 an then wrap them?

Dale
no34570

no34570
01-18-2008, 07:00 AM
I must of had a brain fart:veryconfu

There is no sizing dies for .423-424 made,not that I know of[smilie=1:

Anyone?
Dale
no34570.

no34570
01-18-2008, 07:05 AM
:groner:
I forgot,who is the bloke on this forum that makes the sizing dies?,I can't remember his name,anyone know?

I'm wonderin if I can get him to make me up a .423-.424 sizing die?
But then it has to be sent to Australia.:???:

Hope someone can help?
Cheers
:drinks:
Dale
no34570

Maven
01-18-2008, 01:35 PM
Dale, That would be Buckshot. PM him to see whether he'll make a die for you.

no34570
01-18-2008, 10:23 PM
Dale, That would be Buckshot. PM him to see whether he'll make a die for you.

Maven
That's the bloke:-D I should have remembered[smilie=1:
Will do
Thanks for that
Dale
no34570:drinks:

ktw
01-18-2008, 10:50 PM
What I don't understand is that if using a bore + diameter hard boolit and patching to groove diameter works with smokeless then why wouldn't it work for BP? I guess more accurately, why would you want to allow the boolit to "bump" up and give it a chance to do that unevenly?

As I understand it, soft, patched-to-bore-diameter bullets are preferred with black powder loads as a strategy for dealing with the black powder fouling.

If you use hard, patched-to-groove-diameter bullets with black powder loads you may have a hard time chambering the second round. Even if you do get it chambered it's likely to damage the patch in the process.

-ktw

longbow
01-19-2008, 11:36 AM
I kind of wondered if fouling might be the issue with black powder. Didn't make sense to me otherwise.

Thanks ktw.

Longbow

no34570
02-09-2008, 06:35 PM
Longbow wrote:


The .44 mag Marlin as said before shoots well with 0.421" as cast boolit and patched to 0.432"/0.433". I will try a little larger as cast at 0.424"/0.425" to see how it goes.

Hey Longbow
Have you tried the .424/.425 diameter boolits yet?
Would be interested to find out your results when you have them on hand:-D

I got Buckshot to make me a .424 diameter sizing die for me,later on I will get him to make one up for the .303Brit in .304,the .307 Win in .301 and a .426 for my 44 mag amd also maybe a few others I want to play around with.
Hope to hear from you soon[smilie=1:
:drinks:
Dale
no34570

longbow
02-10-2008, 12:24 AM
no34570:

Well, I sort of did and sort of didn't. I knurled a few to increase diameter and did some shooting but I don't recall if the targets were better, worse or the same as with the smaller boolit. I had actually forgotten about this as I have been preoccupied with some things other than shooting lately and what is about shooting is about shotgun slugs and cast boolit loads for the .303. I get myself tied up in too many projects and get distracted.

I did collect some paper patching after shooting the .44 and it looked very good with ribs impressed into it from the knurling (annular grooves actually). I will try to remember to look up some targets. If you don't hear from me in a few days send me a reminder.

If I didn't keep the targets I will be loading and shooting again in a week or two so I will make sure I do a comparison for you.

Sorry about that, I skipped a groove.

One other thought if I haven't mentioned it is that the larger .303 boolits were knurled and the knurling may also have contributed to better grip between boolit and paper so that maybe contributed as much as increased boolit diameter.

Anyway, I will try to get some results for you.

Again, my apologies for forgetting and not getting this sorted out.

Longbow

martinibelgian
02-10-2008, 01:04 PM
BP and PP:
There are 2 schools - 1 takes an undersize bullet, and patches it up to land diameter, relying on bullet bump-up. The other uses a land-diameter naked bullet, to be patched up to groove diameter. Both will work, but the 1st method will allow you to seat the bullet further out, keeping more powder capacity i nthe case. The 2nd one is more tolerant of harder lead. Both will work given consistent fouling management.

no34570
02-15-2008, 06:09 AM
Longbow
You don't have to apologize for forgetting mate,I do that all the time[smilie=1:
When ya are ready just post what you find and it will be appreciated.

I heard of putting your un-patched bullets between two flat mill(Bastard :shock:no thats what they call them,honest) files and rolling the bullet between them,so will try that as well.



Cheers mate
Dale
no34570:castmine: