My first muzzleloader

[huntincowboy]

Hello everyone! I went into the LGS today to have a look around before I headed out of town. I had been wanting to get a muzzleloader to try out and hopefully broaden my knowledge of firearms. I asked if they had any cheap project type guns and he pulled out a CVA sidelock that was missing a rear sight and needed some work on various minor things. I decided to go ahead and buy it because as far as I know, it was worth the work it needs. From what I can gather online, it was a CVA Kentucky kit rifle .45 caliber. I've taken it down to clean it, as he told me it hasn't been messed with since he got it 3-4 years ago. I don't know anything about black powder or muzzleloaders in general. I did find a users manual for the CVA Hawken rifle on their website that said a starting charge of 50 gr by volume and a max charge of 80 gr using a .440 round ball and a .015" patch. I am wanting to clean it up and get it ready to shoot, but I don't even know where to start in regards to what I need. Is there some sort of starter kit available and maybe a book with a general overview of the care and use of muzzleloaders? All the gun came with was the rod. I also don't know if the barrel has been treated. You can see in the picture that it almost looks color case hardened.

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[missionary5155]

Good morning
Welcome to the BP family ! You are going to have a heap of fun .
Do you know anyone close by who has been shooting muzzleloaders for some years ? If so give them a call and see about a intro course... but also some things you can do.
I would take a good look into the barrel. First run the rod down into the barrel. You want to know if it is loaded. Push the rod down to the very bottom. Mark it at the muzzle end with a piece of tape or pencil. Remove rod. Hold the mark at muzzle end. End of rod that was down the barrel should end up where the nipple sitds on the barrel. If the rod looks like it is about and inch short of the nipple assume that barrel is loaded and dangerous. If you think the barrel is loaded get ahold of a muzzle loader shooter and get help. Put the barrel in a gun case and in a safe spot where it will not get banged around. You probably do not have the tools to safely unload that barrel.
If rod end comes near the nipple the barrel is probably not loaded. Me I would now attempt to blow down the barrel and find out if it is clogged up. If air will pass all is well. If air will not pass unscrew nipple and see it that is clogged or the hole it came out of is. Blow again. Shine a light down the barrel. Looking for rust, pits maybe see a nice shinny well oiled rifled barrel... If you see good pronounced rifling things are looking good.
So if nipple is clear and barrel not rusted look at the hammer assembly. try cocking it.. does the hammer seem to have a good strong spring? Does the hammer have a half cock? Does the sear engage and you have to actually pull the trigger for the hammer to release? Hold the hammer with your thumb so it does not snap forward. Now I would remove the hammer unit and see if it is rusted on the inside or well oiled. Clean oil as needed.
If all that is good I would get me some 2F Black powder, some balls and patches. You will have to check what size percussion cap size your nipples are.. 10 or 11.
Again if you know a BP shooter give him a call.. Help is always helpful getting started.
Mike in Peru

[fouronesix]

huntincowboy,

And, get and use a good steel cleaning rod long enough for the barrel. The pressed/glued-on brass tips and the factory wood ramrod that came with many of these guns are not to be trusted! Many, many of these type rods and/or fittings have been stuck in or broken off in muzzleloader bores when the "goin' gets tough" during loading or cleaning. :)

[huntincowboy]

The gun store checked it to make sure it wasn't loaded before he let me buy it. The rod goes all the way into the barrel haha. Unfortunately, I don't know anyone who shoots black powder. I think the barrel has been cared for but it is so dusty I'll have to clean it to be sure. I've seen that soap and water works just fine so I'm going to give it a go this afternoon. As far as the caps go, the book says no. 11 but since it is used and may have been modified, is there a dimension I can check before I buy anything?

[shane438]

I have 2 of these my dad built for us when I was 7 I love those old guns. A longer fiberglass or polymer rod is what I recommend for cleaning and tough stuff. Find you an accessory kit that has a ball puller, a worm, a bore brush etc. Also most makers recommend FFFG for .50 cal and under. Track of the wolf has some rods made out of ramin if you want to keep the wood look and have something tougher than the factory one. As for the caps you can give #11 caps a little squeeze and they fit a number 10 nipple just fine.

[mooman76]

Normally it is 11 for rifles and 10 for pistols but caps aren't always the same as well as the nipples. I would just get 11s to start. They will still work. May be a little loose, you can just squeeze them a tad so they fit tighter or put up with their looseness. They do make starter kits but you are just as well to get what you need seperate and some things can be improvised or made. Get a BP book and read on it and most of all have fun doing it.

[725]

Since you don't have a buddy to share this experience with, I suggest you find a good manual to read. There are a miriad things to know about safety, techniques, & maintainence. The folks at this site have a profound depth of knowledge and this is a good place to come with questions. Go to wherever you have a book source and search for:
"Black Powder Handbook" -- Lyman Products for Shooters, 1975 publication
"Black Powder Guide" by Maj. Geo. Nonte, A Stoeger publication
"The Complete Blackpowder Handbook" by Sam Fadala, Krause Publications

You may also want to contact the CVA folks and see if they can send you an owner's manual. They are usually free.

Read, learn and stay safe. When they say it's a max load, believe them.

Lastly, cleaning is the key to enjoyment with this hobby. Clean your smoke pole well and keep it oiled. It will give you the best service and last longer when maintained well. I clean mine stem to stern and leave it wet with solvent to store. Usually I come back a few days later and clean it all over again and, because I left it wet with solvent (Ed's Red), I get even more fouling off.

[smoked turkey]

I will echo getting the Lyman Black Powder Manual. It has about all the info you need to get started shooting black. There is a lot of good info here and especially in the "stickies" section at the top of the individual topic threads. I would say that to start you should purchase a box of pure lead round balls. Probably in the .440" catagory. Then get some pillow ticking that is .01-.015 at the fabric dept at one of the big stores. Wash it so as to condition it for use as a patch for your lead ball. Use 40-50 gr of black powder (BY VOLUME-get a black powder adjustable measure in your starter kit) and you are well on your way. I recommend real black powder. However it is not always as easy to find as something like Pyrodex RS. So that will do to get started. You are going to have fun. Enjoy it.

[Sergeant Earthworm]

huntincowboy, as noted above, safety is one critical element in shooting any firearm. Fun is the other. With that in mind, I would add that if you ask two muzzleoading enthusiasts for an opinion on anything you will likely get at least three opinions.

Something you have probably figured out already is that it takes some experience to determine what works best for your rifle. Definitely start with the owners manual and work from there. I agree completely with the recommendation to use black powder, either ffg or fffg. The more time you spend at the range the more you will be able to experiment to find out what works.

There are quite a few threads on cleaning and lubricating BP guns, I suggest checking them out and decide what works best for you. My personal preference is to never use anything petroleum based on my BP guns, excepting anti-seize compound on screw threads such as the nipple. Black powder and it's combustion byproducts are water soluble. Petroleum based cleaners and oils tend to gum up the works in my experience.


I also agree completely that using an aftermarket cleaning rod is far better than using the ramrod for cleaning. In fact, in my guns the wooden ramrod is pretty much a decoration as I use an aftermarket aluminum rod for loading and cleaning. Make sure the rod has the correct threads for attachments like eyelets, jags, worms, and ball seating tips. A ball starter with palm saver is also something to consider, although I know guys who never use one. I made one using my wood lathe but they only cost about $8 or so.

Have fun and stay safe.

[DIRT Farmer]

Hunting cowboy go to the NMLRA web site nmlra.org and see if there is a muzzleloading club near you or a NMLRA field rep in the area. I know we have several competiors from OK so there is some around.
The advise above is good but a knowageable person to talk to one on one helps.

When I started there were several old guys around who had started on the muzzle loaders to help me.

[deerslayer303]

Put some HOT SOAPY water in your sink. Dawn works great. Remove the nipple and put the nipple end in the water. Then take the ramrod with cleaning jag and patch and run it up and down the barrel in a pumping motion. This will suck and push hot water in and out the flash / nipple hole. It will suck water all the way to the muzzle depending on how far you pull the rod out. This is how I clean my barrel and it works totally awesome. It cleaned the flash channel extremely well, which is what alot of folks miss, and then wonder why they have misfires.

[huntincowboy]

Thanks guys, I got it cleaned up today and after removing all the dust, there was a nice shiny bore in there! I'm going tomorrow to pick up powder, caps, a better rod, balls, and a few other odds and ends.

DIRT Farmer I looked on the NMLRA website and there aren't any groups in my area, but I bet I can find a local group of enthusiasts through my gun store.

[Sergeant Earthworm]

Put some HOT SOAPY water in your sink. Dawn works great. Remove the nipple and put the nipple end in the water. Then take the ramrod with cleaning jag and patch and run it up and down the barrel in a pumping motion. This will suck and push hot water in and out the flash / nipple hole. It will suck water all the way to the muzzle depending on how far you pull the rod out. This is how I clean my barrel and it works totally awesome. It cleaned the flash channel extremely well, which is what alot of folks miss, and then wonder why they have misfires.

man did I ever get in trouble with household six the first and only time I cleaned a BP gun in the sink. Now I boil the water and do the cleaning out of a bucket and in the garage or outdoors. Okay, okay, call me whatever but if momma aint happy nobody's happy.

[deerslayer303]

hahaha, SWMBO actually puts up with me and my antics. I clean them in the sink in the basement to spare SWMBO the horror of making the house smell like a fart (as she says), so I do the initial cleaning in the basement. , but YEAUP, they come up stairs to get dried in the oven :) Well the .58 Carbine, and pistols do, but the GPR gets manually dried, sprayed down with WD, because that barrel won't fit in the oven.

[huntincowboy]

Luckily I just did it in the garage haha

[huntincowboy]

Ok so I tried a cap on the nipple and it fit good so I lowered the hammer to make sure it would go over the nipple. It didn't. How can I fix this? Is it safe to rotate the drum to the left the small amount that I need to?

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[docone31]

Is there something keeping the barrel from going completely back in the channel? It also looks like the drum is out of the spot on the lock also.
I would do that first.
I also have one of those. Great shooter!
Good luck.

[huntincowboy]

I checked that the barrel was correctly seated but everything seems correct. There were some wood shavings in the channel where the breech plug hooks in so I cut them out with my knife, but it didn't make any difference. All the holes line up perfectly. I couldn't get the drum to go in the channel using my hands, so I just left it at that.

[fouronesix]

Sure wish you had flipped the first picture to right side up.

Yeoww! There is something way out of kilter between the lock and the barrel. The easier fix (that's relative because it doesn't look like an easy fix) would be to re-inlet the barrel and tang back and down into the position where the drum fits into the cutout on the lock plate. Any possibility it is the wrong barrel for the gun/lock or the wrong lock for the barrel/gun?

Also, turning the drum back to the left will loosen it. Plus there is simply too much out of whack anyway and the barrel to lock fit should be fixed first. A fraction of a turn may be OK but I'd try to figure out the barrel to lock misfit first.

Try removing the lock screws and then re-setting the barrel. Sometimes the main lock screw also goes through a hole or notch in the breechplug/tang. In those cases the main lock screw needs to be run through AFTER the barrel is set.

If nothing works, you either need to return for refund or get it to a good gunsmith that is familiar with muzzleloaders to get an opinion.

[huntincowboy]

I removed the lock, seated the barrel as far as it would go, then tried fitting the lock back on. It's still in the same place. It looks like if I can remove some wood I can scoot the barrel back to where it will be in the correct position (assuming the correct position is the drum centered in the hole on the lock). I don't mind doing that, I bought the rifle as a project so I could learn.

There is the possibility that the barrel does not match the stock, it is a used gun. From what I've seen in the pictures of what I believe the gun to be (CVA Kentucky Rifle kit), everything matches. The lock has a stamp on the inside near the spring that says "X Spain". The barrel is stamped with "Connecticut Valley Arms, Inc. Black Powder only, .45 Cal" and a serial number.

[Swede44mag]

I would not try to re-inlet the rifle back farther other parts will not line up then.
The hammer probably will need to be re-bent to fit the nipple correctly but if not done correctly the hammer may break.
I would try to find someone in your area that is knowledgeable in this area or take it to a gunsmith.

[docone31]

There is something a little up with the lock and barrel. You really cannot move the drum, the breech and drum are interlocking. Even so, it does not fit with the lock.
I would look at why it is like that. If that gap can be closed, both the barrel and lock will fire the cap.
Another issue with those rifles. I have one, is the nipple and clean out screw. The nipple goes too far into the drum. I ground off just a touch on the bottom of the nipple and no more hang fires. I then flared the bottom opening of the nipple, and my fire time picked up.
They are very accurate rifles! My wife fires hers at 100yds and can hit a bowling pin with it. We use 70gns of Pyrodex RS. I remove the barrel to clean it. Scalding hot water and dish soap. Run a patch in and out and give a good scrub. I clean through the nipple.
Then, when dry, I run patches down the bore and then spray silicone spray in it. I tip it muzzle down to dry.
Check the lock/drum fit. That is the issue rather than bending the hammer. Something is out of line.

[BadDaditood]

Congrats Cowboy, your first smokepole looks pert-near identical to my first, which i'm in the middle of building now. :)

CVA is now Traditions, i bought the Kentucky Rifle with the full length 2 piece stock (that skinny brass plate in front of the lock has two 2 inch pins thru it joining front to rear). Instead of wedges holding the stock to the barrel these rifles have "tenon pins". On the bottom of the barrel there are 2 "tenons" drifted into small dovetails; you drill thru the stock, thru the center of the tenon (hopefully) and out the other side of the stock. Pound 'em thru and file 'em off. Not exactly user friendly come cleaning time but i'm sure the tenon pins and 2 piece stock have a lot to do with it being the cheapest kit available.

I couldn't dig up the instructions online so i'll have to type out the part you want:

*** page 6
Note: make sure that barrel is all the way back into the tang slot. You need to visually inspect to make sure that bolster (drum) lines up with hammer and that when the hammer falls it hits the cap squarely. You must also pay close attention that there is a very slight gap between the bolster and locking plate.

15. Set the hammer in the half-cock position. The barrel bolster should be positioned concentrically into its cut-out in the lock plate and the lock plate should be snug against the barrel.

16. Insert the tang screw through the hole in the corresponding tang and pass it through the stock and into its corresponding hole in the trigger assembly.

17. At this point the hammer should be positioned so that it will fall squarely onto the nipple. If it does not one or more of the following steps may be taken.

* Remove wood from bottom of lock recess, until lock is flush with the barrel.

* Remove wood as needed from under and behind the barrel channel, including tang area. (that's what i had to do to center lock on drum, i also had to hog out the rear side of the tang screw hole; didn't want screw bending or stock splitting there)

* Check that the lock plate and lock plate screws are snugly fitted into the stock and the lock is properly positioned in its cut-out.

* If proper alignment is not obtained with the previous steps, the hammer may be bent slightly by removing it from the lock, heating it and by bending it carefully to obtain the correct alignment.

Somewhere in there it says don't try to turn the bolster (drum) it's set at the factory and any tampering will cause nothing short of planetary mis-alignment and an end to the world as we know it... or something along those lines.

***
Your pics make me think that your original builder didn't take much if any wood out, that hammer may not fire as is... and with the bore so shiny i'm thinkin' it may never have been fired.
When you chisel wood out of the breech slot, go super slow and just shave it evenly, its hard to get sandpaper glued to a popsicle stick down in there. I went too far in several areas and i swear i spent more time fixing my goofups than anything else. A real comedy of errors... coffee stir sticks, waterproof glue, brass plating, toothpicks... and I'm a Professional wood butcher!! But it's gonna be purty, all said n done. Hope it fires! It'll look nice over the fireplace if not.

I looked for instructions and/or a rear sight but Traditions Performance Firearms doesn't even list their kit guns on their website, so here's what's on the back of my instruction pamphlet:

P.O. Box 776 Old Saybrook, CT 06475-0776 www.traditionsmuzzle.com email: trad@ct2.nai.net 860 388 4656

Hope this helps. Track of the Wolf has pages and pages of sights, and just about anything else you might need.

[huntincowboy]

Thank you BadDaditood! I've been slowly filing away at the wood on the bolster to set the barrel back. It's starting to line up, but it's slow going. I have maybe half of the amount off that it has to go. I'm getting pretty excited about being close to shooting it. I got a rear sight with it, but it doesn't fit real well, it's loose big time. I'm thinking about shimming it, or maybe I'll order one when I can think to measure the dovetail haha. It may not have been fired, the guy who sold it to me said he bought it from a man who's dad passed away and left several unfinished projects.

[fouronesix]

Sounds like progress!
Once you get the barrel and lock all lined up and start on the rear sight... you can do one of at least three things. Shim under the sight dovetail to tighten. Or, get another sight (of a style you may like better) with a blank or larger dovetail and fit/file to the dovetail in the barrel. Or, tighten the existing rear sight by peening the edges of the dovetail on the barrel to tighten the sight. Or glue in place (epoxy is nice because it is strong and easily reversible with a little heat). You'll need the sight a little snug while sighting in but once that's done you may want it much more snug.

[Alan]

One thing that was mentioned above you should avoid. do NOT get a fiberglass loading/cleaning rod. I don't like the coated ones either. Get a one-piece steel (i like stainless) with a muzzle protector, and use that. Fiberglass will cut steel about as fast as a good file, and you don't want it flexing down inside your barrel, or rubbing on the muzzle.

[BadDaditood]

here's a link to a .pdf of the owners manual, it has lots of good newbie info and also important load data, like Max charges [smilie=1:

it's down the left side called: Side Lock Percussion - Flintlock Manual

http://www.traditionsfirearms.com/muzzleloader-manuals.php

here's a couple excerpts:

***
No. 11 caps, nipple is M6 x 1 metric threads

.45 to .58 cal rifles they recommend 2 f (FFg) black powder, Pyrodex RS or Pyrodex Select

Round Ball = .440

Patch thickness = .015

Most Accurate: 46 - 70 grains FFg
Max 100 gr FFg

Most Accurate: 40 - 65 gr FFFg
Max 95 gr FFFg

Conicals must be loaded without patches. It they are not purchased prelubricated, they must be greased with Traditions WonderLube or any commercial BP bullet lube.
The most accurate load for a conical is usually 5 to 10 grains above those for round balls. Maximum powder loads for these projectiles in each caliber are identical to those noted above for round balls.
Conical projectiles must fit tightly.
***

Is the rate of twist scribed on your barrel? I chose 1 in 60" for round ball. I've heard Mini's need a faster twist to stabilize, like 1 in 24". Some say 1 in 48" is not ideal for either ball or bullet, but no doubt Forum wars have started over that statement :twisted:

Here's the part about the drum they call *bolster*:
***
Important: Never remove the bolster/drum or breech plug (my breech plug is welded to the tang) from the barrel. They have been installed at the factory such that they interlock with each other for maximum lock-up strength. Next, a concentric communication hole is drilled into this unit to assure optimum ignition. The removal or alteration of these key parts will compromise the performance of your gun, void your warranty and likely create an unsafe situation.
***
hmmm i musta made up the part about getting smacked in the head by an asteroid.

enjoy it cowboy !! you'll be shooting yours long before me-- my bbl goes in the bluing tank tomorrow 8-)

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

I have the same gun a kit Kentucky long in 45 , the rear sight is a 3/8 dove tail . I am going to replace mine , check track of the wolf they have several , I actually am going to step away from traditional and go with a marbles peep with elevator , peeps just work for my eyes

here is a thread we did on cleaning http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?175553-Cleaning-muzzle-loaders not to long ago

[huntincowboy]

Ok so I got it all lined up and popped a cap to make sure it would work properly. It went but the cap is destroyed. By destroyed I mean it split in two places from bottom to top. Is that how it is supposed to be?

[shane438]

I have seen caps come apart in all manner of ways. That's why some folks get the little guard that goes on the nipple to protect from fragments. As long as you are getting fire to the powder charge your probably ok. Put up a pic of the hammer/nipple alignment and let us see the corrections you made.

[huntincowboy]

It still isn't perfect, but now it makes the needed clearance easily. You can see in the second picture where I filed the wood behind the barrel to fit it. It took a lot of filing and sanding to move it back the fraction of an inch that I did.

[fouronesix]

Much much better!!
It is probably good to go as it is now. If you set the barrel/tang just a smidge farther back you will be able to turn the drum a fraction tighter (right turn) and get perfect hammer-nipple fit. But, judging by the photo, it is now as close if not closer to that perfect alignment as most MLs. That'll be your call.

If you want, but not necessary for shooting, you can now use some files and sanding blocks to finish the final surface of the stock then add wood finish as desired.

[huntincowboy]

I plan on doing a wood finish at some point as time allows. What kind of finish do you use? Is it ok to use something from the hardware store, or do I need an application specific kind?

[Wayne Smith]

It looks as if you have pretty good color as it is. I would simply sand it to about 220-300. Get some Pure Tung Oil (Woodcraft carries it) and pour a little in a container. Cut it between 50-75% with mineral oil. Use this as a filler, sanding it in so that the sanding dust fills the pores of the wood. Start with the last grit you sanded with. I typically sand the tung oil in until I get to 600 grit. By this time two things have happened, the mineral oil has gassed off enough that my dilution is closer to 75% tung oil, and the pores are filled and I have a perfectly smooth surface. At this point I start hand rubbing. You can rub in oil to an oil type finish or you can keep on rubbing it in until you get to a glossy finish - your desire. I typically stop around 15-20 coats hand rubbed before I get to gloss.

This works well with nicely colored wood that does not need a stain.

Be sure to finish the barrel channel equally.

[shane438]

That barrel fit looks good! Look here if you are bothered by those caps coming apart: http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/704/1

If you are handy you might make something yourself. Just make sure the nipple and the path to the chamber are clear. If not you may be getting pressure blowback and tearing the cap up. A smaller diameter welders torch tip cleaner works well for this.

[fouronesix]

By destroyed I mean it split in two places from bottom to top. Is that how it is supposed to be?

Short answer- yes, it's absolutely normal for the cap to split even when "dry firing" with cap only. The striking part of the hammer on most all ML caplocks is recessed to help keep blowback gas and junk and pieces of the cap from hitting shooter.

Obviously when shooting normal charges and loads, the cap will be split or shredded. With really heavy charges and/or if the nipple flash hole is too large the discharge back through the nipple upon firing can be excessive. If the hammer is forced back to half or full cock then for certain the charge is too heavy and/or the nipple flash hole is too large.