put your favourite Trapdoor loads and boolit here.

[rollmyown]

I'm looking for a nice original Trapdoor to shoot. I have no experience yet with these rifles. BP is very difficult to get here so smokeless loadings are welcome. (please feel free to include BP loadings)

How suitable would the Mihec HB group buy mould be? Do they prefer heavy or perform better in the 400 gn area?


Pics of groups, reloads and rifles welcome!!

[John Allen]

I use a 400 grain Lyman mold with a plain base. They are pan lubed and loaded with 60 grains of blackpowder. I use a .060 overwad a cookie of spg and then a wool wad underneath the bullet.

[Nobade]

Mine shoots great with Lyman #457125 cast from 20:1, lubed with Emmert's lube, loaded over 70gr. KIK FFg droptubed and compressed to allow the boolit to seat to the right length.

I am one of those old style guys who won't shoot smokeless in a trapdoor or other rifle designed for black powder.

As for BP availability, if you are where UPS can get to you then BP is easily available.

-Nobade

[RobsTV]

Start with this and you can't go wrong:

http://www.4570book.info/

Nice Original Trapdoor and Smokeless do not belong in the same paragraph.

Shoot the Nice Original Trapdoor with what it was intended to shoot, soft lead and a full case of slightly compressed black powder. No scale needed. Drop tube helps a lot before compressing.

Best results here with hollow base Lee mold 459-405-HB as dropped, on top of 66gr FFg compressed .216, 2.52 oal and crimp.

18:1 mix
5.22%sn, 94.8%pb, 10.1 BHN

Hi Vel:,1387
Low Vel:,1361
Ave Vel:,1377
Ext Spread:,26
Std Dev:,10

Above with original 1884 45-70 slugged at .458.

[Bullshop]

As usual I am going to go against the grain. First of all after living in Alaska for many years I know that not everyone can have BP delivered by UPS since for those many years I had to make due without.
The one single SMOKLESS load I use most is with 21gn 2400 under about any Postell or PP type boolit from 500 to 530gn. I fill the remainder of the case with styrofoam packing popcorn and compress it with the boolit.
The load gives 1270 average fps with extreme spread in the teens. 1270 to 1330 was the required velocity range to be accepted by the Gov. for service. This velocity range will work with the correct sight settings appropriate for the 500gn boolit weight if you have the correct front sight.
I have an extra model 1884 with about a mint bore that I would consider trading although at the moment I have no idea what I would want to trade for.
I hope Lord willing that I will get to shoot in the TD class at the Quiggley this year.

[Coffeecup]

Kinda embarrassing to admit, but one of my favorite Trapdoor loads has always been 45 grains of FFg under a paper-patched Lyman 452374 (230 RN for the 45 auto). It makes a great load for 25 and 50 yard plinking, even in rifles with oversized chambers and bores.

[rockrat]

The load I use in my 1884 TD is a 425 gr Lee GB boolit over 27gr of 5744. I put a card wad over the powder , then fill the rest of the case with grits to when I seat the boolit, it compresses the grits about 1/8". Shot an 8" group @325yds , open sights , with this load. With my eyes, thats pretty good. 1.5-2" @100yds.

The gun is in great shape. Bought it from an intermediary, who said it came from an 80ish yr old widow, who told him it had belonged to her husbands Grandfather. One of my favorite 45-70's to shoot.

[725]

420 gr boolit with:
30 gr 4198
40 gr 3031

round ball with:
9 gr Unique

[M-Tecs]

All my TD's shoot great with Lyman's #457124, & 457125 cast from WW plus 2% tin over 10 grains Unique. Most of the original TD's have large bores so you may have to beagle your mold to get it to cast large enough. My only original bore is .461 but I have seen them as large as .465.

[John Boy]

http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/shooterstext.html
Scroll to bottom of site for reloads

[rollmyown]

I appreciate the sentiment about BP. It may as well be called unobtanium here. Thanks to all posters so far. Keep em coming.

[RobsTV]

Where are you located? You can add this location to your profile, which might help as others in the area you are in should know more.

Consider that a pound of BP is a little more than 100 rounds.
So ordering 5 pounds at around $100 delivered, which includes haz-mat fees, is not out of line. Or, perhaps others near you will let you test some BP yourself. Even better, many times a group will place a BP order and get it cheaper to split between them. But without your location, no one knows if they can assist you.

Easy to get the fever once you shoot it. The smell, noise, smoke and accuracy, and something inside that makes you smile as all your senses give you a taste of how the gun was shot 125 years ago. More BP guns usually follow. Clean up is as easy as smokeless when you use the right powder, boolit and lube.

One reason why I am so keen on BP is it's simplicity.
After fooling with several smokeless powders in the 45-70, never getting any sort of accuracy, the switch to BP just made everything fall instantly into place. I was in the same boat as you, with Black Powder unobtainable. Finally picked some up on one of my long overnight road trips from a tiny old time gun dealer. Continued to find some during travels, and finally placed my first online order from Powder Inc a month ago.

Then there is the risk of damage that smokeless can cause in our softer iron original BP barrels. The photos of damage caused by "improperly" using smokeless at the above link posted by John Boy are not unusual. The normal rules do not apply. You need to be extra careful since these were not made to withstand the pressures possible with smokeless. After getting a Chronograph, I went to test some of my old smokeless 45-70 loads, and the first one measured 1806fps!!! Needless to say, I pulled the remaining and discarded that powder. I got lucky. Note that this was not any sort of double charge, but simply loading by using the charge tables for smokeless, yet most likely using data for modern 45-70, not an original, or maybe not having a wad or extra filler? That could not happen with a full case of real BP.

BP just works.

[rollmyown]

I live in Australia. With layers of regulations most gun shops are unable to get or to store BP. Many shops here even have a 50 kilo stock limit on smokeless powder. BP is definetely not able to be bought online or by any other means here and have it delivered.
I envy your access to a wide variety of powders at prices we in Australia can only dream about (even taking into account your recent price hikes)

I totally agree that BP is the preferred propellant, but if it can not be got then you have to make do with what you can get.

First things first, I need to find a good original rifle. I prefer antiques and I don't think the replicas have the same character or "feel"

[curator]

The Lee .459-405 boolit cast of pure lead with about 1% tin added, unsized with 23 grains of SR4759 is a great Trapdoor load. I hand lube mine with a 50/50 bee's wax/lard lube and put a hard felt wad under the boolit to keep any melted lube out of the powder column. Slugs drop out of my mould at .462 when cast hot (850 degrees) Very accurate in several Trapdoor rifles and carbines as well as other .45-70 rifles too.

[fouronesix]

rollmyown,
My best trapdoor loads with smokeless are similar to curator's. Fairly soft alloy, gas checked 420 gr bullet sized to about .461 over 5744 (very similar ballistically to 4759) with dacron filler for muzzle velocities in the 1100-1200 fps range.

[dale2242]

My 1884 Trapdoor likes Lyman 457124HP at 385 grs. with 30 gr. 4198.
It shoots this load to the issue sights POA.....dale

[smkummer]

Lyman 457192-350 grain and 457124-385 (acutally weighs 405 grains with WW alloy) grain with 14.5 grains unique in my H&R repro officers model. Cheap, fun, accurate and just 50 FPS shy of factory velocity. What is not to like?

[Larry Gibson]

My "favorite" TD loads are the Rapine 460210HB over 6 gr of Bullsye or the Rapine 460250 (mine drops at 275 gr) over 8 gr Bullseye cast of range lead with 2% tin added + 50% lead. Both are sized .4615 and lubed with my own BP lube or with BAC. In larger groove TDs I shoot the 460210HB as cast at .464 - .465 TL'd in LLA. The 460250s at 1050 fps out of my H&R LBH and OM are amazingly accurate to 500 yards.

Below is a lineup of my 45-70 cast bullets; the 460210HB & 460250 are the 2 on the left.

Larry Gibson

6184661847

[Cmasailor]

I followed some advice on loading pyrodex in my 50-70 and i'm happy hits what i aim at and went through an eight inch tree ( for the record I had to cut it down anyway due to power lines) Just enough in the case to compress it a 16th of an inch under the lee version of the 450grn original. Real BP is scarce in my parts, and I cant afford to order a case.

[Norbrat]

I appreciate the sentiment about BP. It may as well be called unobtanium here. Thanks to all posters so far. Keep em coming.

Rob, if I'd known you need some 45/70 boolits, I would have included some in the care package! I've got 5 moulds which would give a nice variety for you to try. Maybe I'll have to put another bag together for you.

As for BP, it's not that hard to find in Oz. Our club buys it in bulk and sells it off. Try your local SSAA club; surely they must have some BP tragics there. If you get really stuck, let me know and I will ask around. Someone will know someone in Tassie who can help you with it.

As for smokeless powder, I use ADI exclusively now. Had a can of 2400 recently, but that didn't do anything better than AR2205 for me. And a lot of IMR & Hogdon powder in the USA is ADI powder anyway, just repackaged and renamed.

and I think there is little point in developing a pet load with imported powder, only to find it's not available when you are getting ready for a big comp.

[NMLRA Guy]

While I don't agree with those who won't use smokeless in trapdoors, I certainly respect their opinion. Rifle cleanup with black powder is not all that tough. Put a rubber band around the action to hold the breach in the open position and go to it. Use of a bore guide is advised but not necessary if careful. Cleaning CASES is the pain in the tush! And that MUST be done fairly soon after firing. I usta use an 1873 model trapdoor which had a .463 bore and I was shooting wheel weight metal. I wish I had it now! I took a Lee 500 grain mould, wallered the handles off (don't ask), put the blocks in a lathe and opened it up to .463...I had no supply of pure lead which would have made this exercise unnecessary. With a load of black fffg compressed a bit, it would SHOOT just fine. I've shot Sharps in .40-70 BN, .40-65 and .45-70, Ballards in 40-63, .40-65 and a Ballard Creedmoor in .45-100-550 and the trapdoor will shoot with them if properly loaded with black powder. Most of this was a 500 meters, but some out to 1000 yards. We all see pix of exploded guns. What we can never be sure of is what exactly happened. We all see pix every day of crunched up cars and most of us know what causes it. I am not demeaning those who have guns blow up on them but most of us do just fine. But it IS hard to mess up with black powder, but not impossible. The 1884 trapdoors had the better sights, but all of them will shoot if the bore is at all good.

[Jethro]

If you are looking for an original trapdoor, don't shoot smokeless powder through it. I have never tried it and won't because I have heard it is dangerous.

I use Jim Shockeys Gold which is a measure for measure black powder substitute with great results and not as corrosive as black powder and some of the other substitutes. My rifle is an original Alin Conversion in 50-70 Government. I fill the case with powder to the point where it lightly compresses with a wad. I lube the bullets with Alox with good results, but I am going to start pan lubing.
If you want to shoot smokeless, be safe and get a modern reproduction.

[tacklebury]

Dardas 350 gr. RNFP with 34 gr. Reloader7

[Seabee1960]

62996

13.0 grains of IMR Trail Boss and a 405 grain Lyman 457193 bullet. Very pleasant to shoot, Clean up is a breeze, 13 grains will fill the case to the point where no double charge is possible.

We are talking about an 1884 Trap Door Springfield rifle. The only efficient way I know of to clean black powder fowling is lots of boiling hot water and soap. I would not pour hot water down the barrel unless the rifle was disassembled. How many times can you turn the screws on the barrel bands or drag the bands up and down the stock before you start to damage the rifle? I like Trail Boss. It is very easy on the old girl pictured and easy on my sholder too.

[25ring]

I know this will be considered heresy in some circles,but I'm currently testing a duplex smokeless load that uses a 3gr kicker of RL-7 and 51 grs of WC872,under a shortened Dan T. designed money bullet that casts out at 466grs. Put 10 shots inside 1 1/2" @ 75yds. Vel 1200fps. Waiting for some better weather for load developement at longer distances.FWIW.---Mike

[John Boy]

I'm looking for a nice original Trapdoor to shoot. I have no experience yet with these rifles. BP is very difficult to get here so smokeless loadings are welcome. (please feel free to include BP loadings)

Pics of groups, reloads and rifles welcome!!
* What are you trying to accomplish?
* Would suggest you buy and read this book first ...
http://4570products.info/Loading-Cartridges-for-Original-45-70-Springfield-1.htm

* And also visit this website ...
http://www.trapdoorcollector.com/shooterstext.html

[Chill Wills]

[QUOTE
We are talking about an 1884 Trap Door Springfield rifle. The only efficient way I know of to clean black powder fowling is lots of boiling hot water and soap. I would not pour hot water down the barrel unless the rifle was disassembled. How many times can you turn the screws on the barrel bands or drag the bands up and down the stock before you start to damage the rifle? I like Trail Boss. It is very easy on the old girl pictured and easy on my sholder too.[/QUOTE]

I would not suggest doing any of that. Cleaning a BPCR is very easy. Information like this post is what scares off new BP shooters.
Respectfully, Michael Rix

[Nobade]

Yep, I agree. If the cases are annealed they seal the chamber and all the fouling stays in the bore. A couple wet patches, a plastic brush, couple more patches, and an oiled patch and you're done. It is a lot easier to clean than a muzzle loader and only takes a couple of minutes. The cases, however, can be a pain until you get a wet tumbler. Then they're super easy too and look like new after an hour of tumbling. All in all it is quite a bit easier to use a Trapdoor with black powder than it is with smokeless, it is safer, and they usually shoot more accurately when loaded as intended.

-Nobade

[Ecramer]

I use 60 grains of FFg Goex, and the Lee 405HB, cast from mostly pure lead with a little wheel weight metal thrown in, and lubed with a homemade version of SPG.

[ReloaderEd]

300 gr RCBS molded boolit pure lead with gas check lubed with alox/beeswax 50/50, 45/70 and 38 grs of IMR3031 powder 1884 trapdoor carbine. Dont know velocity but very accurate out past 300 yds with the wonderful peep site on the rifle. That is my one bullet, one load. be safe

[Seabee1960]

“If the cases are annealed and if you have a wet tumbler and if your local dealer still has black powder on the shelf......." That is my point. You can get Trail boss or IMR 4198 or Unique or IMR 3031 delivered to your house by UPS when Powder Valley has it in stock. I have 4 muzzle loading rifles and three pistols. I have been shooting black powder since 1976. It is unusual to find an original black powder era gun in any kind of shape. Why take a piece of American history that will only increase in value and risk the potential of rust and corrosion associated with Black Powder... Just saying..... I would like to scare all new shooters away from Black Powder just as I would steer them from pre war corrosive Berdan primers. I know that our sport is full of purists who are pissed if you show up to the range in an automobile and not ridding a mule but you have to walk before you can run and loading black powder cartridges with scoops and 3 foot drop tubes and the hassle of case- rifle clean up after is enough to hair lip everybody on owl creek. I taught my son the King’s English first. If he wants to learn hieroglyphics at some point in the future that is up to him. I have a section of vintage military black powder rifle barrel that looks like stage 4 colon cancer inside . I will post the pictures.

[Seabee1960]

“If the cases are annealed and if you have a wet tumbler and if your local dealer still has black powder on the shelf......." That is my point. You can get Trail boss or IMR 4198 or Unique or IMR 3031 delivered to your house by UPS when Powder Valley has it in stock. I have 4 muzzle loading rifles and three pistols. I have been shooting black powder since 1976. It is unusual to find an original black powder era gun in any kind of shape. Why take a piece of American history that will only increase in value and risk the potential of rust and corrosion associated with Black Powder... Just saying..... I would like to scare all new shooters away from Black Powder just as I would steer them from pre war corrosive Berdan primers. I know that our sport is full of purists who are pissed if you show up to the range in an automobile and not ridding a mule but you have to walk before you can run and loading black powder cartridges with scoops and 3 foot drop tubes and the hassle of case- rifle clean up after is enough to hair lip everybody on owl creek. I taught my son the King’s English first. If he wants to learn hieroglyphics at some point in the future that is up to him. I have a section of vintage military black powder rifle barrel that looks like stage 4 colon cancer inside . I will post the pictures.

[RobsTV]

“If the cases are annealed and if you have a wet tumbler and if your local dealer still has black powder on the shelf......." That is my point. You can get Trail boss or IMR 4198 or Unique or IMR 3031 delivered to your house by UPS when Powder Valley has it in stock.....

No, cases do not need to be annealed. Never have. Always used normal stock cases. Never issues. No special tumbler needed as well. Simply toss the brass in a jar with warm water and a couple drops of Dawn, give a quick shake, rince, then clean the same as you would any brass.

No rifle disassembly required to clean. Same as any rifle, except instead of using Hoppes, etc, you simply use hot plain water (never boiling as it can damage oiled stock). A few wet swipes to clean out, then perhaps Hoppes if desired, a quick wet wipe down of action, then a swab of your favorite lube/protectant inside and out (quick dry swab again before using next time). The only thing you must do is clean within a day or so of shooting, otherwise it can be corrosive (but not as bad as many BP subs).

For my other guns, I wish smokeless was as easy to get as it is for Black Powder. I can place an order for Black Powder from Powder Inc and have Black Powder delivered to my home within days. Smokeless is sold out everywhere. Luckily I stocked up. And even if all powder dried up, smokeless and BP, you could always make your own BP simple enough.

While BP does require you to clean it soon after shooting, that's about it for requirements. Unlike smokeless, No scales, No dippers for measuring as a full case is the right amount. No fillers or wads required. No Hot loads or light practice loads, just one load, the correct load based on how the gun was designed to shoot. No double or tripple charge to worry about. No heat treating or water dropping or mixing alloys except a tad of tin added to plain soft lead (SOWW work fine) is preferred. So much simpler it is stupid. Unlike smokeless, nearly impossible to mess up when using full case of real black powder. You lose nothing in performance and many times, a normal BP load will give you better performance and consistancy than smokeless, with a normal BP load, 405gr HB at average 1377fps an example here.

We all have to take certain precautions with any gun, some special for the specific gun used. BP is no different. You can do things the hard way or the easy original designed way. There are far too many excellent modern smokeless rifles of same caliber to pick from instead of shooting smokeless in an original BP rifle.

BP shooting original weapons is much more than sending lead downrange. All the senses in your body are incorporated. It is the smoke you see and taste. It is the smell. It is the special boom you hear and feel. It is the history that this gun may have been used this exact same way 130 years ago to change our lives. These are the things that separate an old BP rifle from a modern smokeless equivalent. If you only wish to shoot lead of that caliber, skip BP rifles and stick with modern smokeless, where you won't have to experience all these sensations in action. Pull trigger then you feel and hear it go bang, the same way as most smokeless rifles.

[Ecramer]

I agree with those who say BP cleanup is not that big a deal -- but I missed the original poster's problem with getting real BP.

If I couldn't get BP, I'd probably use Hodgdon Triple 7 (there's data for it online), or alternatively Trail Boss, using the "smokeless for black" formula that Trail Boss recommends.

[bigted]

62996

13.0 grains of IMR Trail Boss and a 405 grain Lyman 457193 bullet. Very pleasant to shoot, Clean up is a breeze, 13 grains will fill the case to the point where no double charge is possible.

We are talking about an 1884 Trap Door Springfield rifle. The only efficient way I know of to clean black powder fowling is lots of boiling hot water and soap. I would not pour hot water down the barrel unless the rifle was disassembled. How many times can you turn the screws on the barrel bands or drag the bands up and down the stock before you start to damage the rifle? I like Trail Boss. It is very easy on the old girl pictured and easy on my sholder too.


well since nobody has dealt the bummer card ...ill proceed with the info;

IMR has published loads for 45-70 rifles and the preassures are kinda scarey to me...as such;

400ish boolits loaded with 12 grains trailboss equal 24,500 CUP
400ish boolits loaded with 13 grains of the same trailboss equals an astonishing 25,600 CUP [COPPER UNITS PREASSURE]

blackpowder is mostly in the low to mid teens of thousands CUP with a bit diff spike in the preassures

i load AA 5744 in these cases thusly and with reliable info for the safety of a bp designed rifle from yesteryear;

i weigh a very small dose of 5744 into my scale then when i grasp a case i never let it lose till ive installed the powder,,,filler,,,bollit. i do this with all the smokless loaded cases which go into any rifle/handgun which was built in the 1800's when the ONLY powder was BLACKPOWDER.


:violin: just do be carefull PLEASE...cant afford any more tradgedies!

[fouronesix]

To get 1100-1200 fps with a fairly soft 400-420 gr cast bullet I use something like 21-22 gr of 5744 with dacron filler. For me the velocity SDs have always hovered between 6 fps to about 12 fps.

These type loads were pressure tested and the results posted by a member here on the forum a couple 'r' three years ago using a 45-70 bolt action test platform. The pressures and velocities were very uniform with SDs very low. IIRC the 21-22 gr charge of 5744 under that bullet never approached even high teens K in pressure. Through the practical range of 5744 published charges for "Trapdoor" loads the pressures never became erratic nor exceeded the recommended max for the trapdoor type action.

[lawboy]

LEE 420gr Lead hollowbase microgroove bullet sized to .459 and fired over 12.0 grs of Unique. Winchester, Wolf or CCI primer. I do not pan lube. I use a lube sizer with soft alox lube.
I have used this in several original Trapdoors with very satisfactory results.