new Rolling Block 45-70 what can it take?

[lawboy]

Just bought a Remington rolling block in fine shape. It is a custom rifle that looks like someone meant it to be a short, brush gun. 22.25-inch heavy taper barrel, gold beed hooded front sight, Lyman adjustable rear U notch, sling. What kind of loads can these actions take? My usual load is a lyman 457125 at 517-grains over 23 grains of Re7 or 32 grains of 3031. These loads are under about 900fps, well under trapdoor. Can the RB take loads moderately hotter than trapdoor or is it pretty much trapdoor and under?

[axman]

Most rem rolling blocks should be kept at trapdoor loads with the exception of the smokeless 7mm actions and the #5 sporting actions they should take heavier loads but I would'nt go as far as 95 marlin loads. I would want a little margin of safety when dealing with the older actions assuming yours is an older one.

The load you gave should take care of most game encountered.

[lawboy]

That is what I figured and that is what I will do.
The action has no serial number so it is old.
Dealer wrote "pre 68" on the paperwork to note that it predates the gun control act of 1968 that instituted the serial number requirement.

[Bullshop]

Pends on if its a smokless or bp action. Smokless actions were chamberd for 7/57, 30/40, 7.62/54 and the likes which puts them easily in the Marlin range.
I have a #5 action that was chamberd for the 219 Donaldson wasp when I got it. BP actions I would keep at bp pressures and preferably do it with bp.
I read that there were a couple experimental trapdoors made in 30/40 before the Kraig was adopted so go figure.
BIC/BS

[John Taylor]

Some of the last Rolling blocks were made in 30-06 but I think this is pushing the pressure limits a bit. If your roller is a BP model then stay with loads in the trapdoor range. If it has 1902 on the upper rear tang then it can go a little higher on the pressure but I think I would stay below 35,000 psi for the diameter of the 45-70.

[Buckshot]

.............Right, to the above. There is even some question amongst the Rolling Block illuminati if the M1897, 02 and #5 sporter actions were all that much better (metalurgy wise).

At one time, Numrich arms offered 45-70 and 444 Marlin barrels for the big #1 RB actions. Factory 45-70 from the majors has always been loaded to Trapdoor pressures. Who knows what handloaders did? On the other hand, the 444 Marlin has been a factory 42-44,000 PSI cartridge from the factory. I personally wouldn't put my face behind a #1 action made in 1871 chambered to 444 Marlin.

Remington was a big name gunmaker and marketed their arms world wide for sporting use, and sold thousands upon thousands to various militaries. The point being, they obviously wanted to produce a high quality firearm so they undoubtedly used the best materials and proceedures available.

Yet back then, or during most of the rolling block's span of production, steel and the alloys of steel, was a lot of voo doo and independant thinking, along with jealously guarded techniques and procedures.

I have an M1897 in 7x57 and stick to the original ballistics which was 2400 fps from a 29" bbl. I also have a 1879 Argentine contract RB in .43 Spanish. I HAVE loaded the 370gr Lyman to 1600 fps, but not any longer after much reading. I also have a loose #1 action that I beleive came from a military 43 Egyptian.

I was going to have a BPCR made from it and had been in the process of cleaning up the action. It was a good tight one. While in the process I had spoken to the owner of the Scheutzen Gun Co. in Colorado about various things, mainly trying to get a handle on expenses.

I mentioned to him that in the process of polishing the flats of the action I kept getting these longitudnal scratches. I wasn't draw filing, but the scratches were as if I was, and the file had pinned. He laughed and said I would never get them out as they were carbon inclusions that had been streatched during the forging process.

You do NOT want carbon inclusions in the receiver of a firearm that will have high pressure loads fired in it. Each inclusion is a possible facture or stress riser. While I didn't notice these in the barrel thread area of the action, they were common in the sidewalls. The sidewalls are much thicker then the barrel hoop of the action. I had to believe that the sidewalls aren't subjected to the same stress the much thinner barrel hoop was. However, I also had to believe if there were carbon inclusions in the sidewall, there must also be in the barrel hoop. It's all one piece of steel.

Today, barrel steel is totally certified and goes through stringent inspections and x-raying. Action steel is also certified and inspected beginning at the mill that produced it. I do not know what testing was done to the steel by the mill and by Remington from 1867 up to the early 1900's.

I'd view anything up until the later 1880's or even 1890's with a bit of a jaundiced eye. By the early 1890's they were getting a pretty good handle on it. See the M91 Mosin Nagants, Mausers, and Carcano's for example. But too, on the other hand, these were a much stronger action by design then the venerable Rolling Block.

...............Buckshot

[Nueces]

Thanks for the exposition, Buckshot. I have seen those striations in old firearms and wondered what they were.

Mark

[MtGun44]

If you want to stay in the trapdoor pressure range while getting
a bit better velocity, try 57.0 W748 behind either a RCBS or Lee
cast 405 bullet. This goes 1750 from my Guide Gun and is listed
as a trapdoor pressure load (<21,000 if I remember correctly) in
a recent .45-70 load article by Brian Pearce. This is a great
load and shoots always under 2" at 100 from the GG, usually one
big ragged hole. A moderately slow powder like W748 gets the
higher velocity while staying in the low pressure range suitable
for these old actions.

I took a wildebeest and zebra with this load (cheated with a
Rem 405 jacketed bullet) a couple years ago - one shot each.
Now that I am learning more about cast, I really wish I had
used the RCBS 405 GC as it shoots just as accurately and may
have worked even better. Still learning!

Bill

[WBH]

I have always obtained better accuracy from my rollers and Sharps using BP exclusively. Swiss 1 1/2 to be exact. All my rifles will shoot MOA... PROVIDING I do my part. I have always been dissappointed when using smokeless in these old guns. The good news is that you can never create too much pressure using BP. Try some 20:1 bullets with BP, and I'm sure you will never go back to smokeless in your roller.

[SharpsShooter]

I have always obtained better accuracy from my rollers and Sharps using BP exclusively. Swiss 1 1/2 to be exact. All my rifles will shoot MOA... PROVIDING I do my part. I have always been dissappointed when using smokeless in these old guns. The good news is that you can never create too much pressure using BP. Try some 20:1 bullets with BP, and I'm sure you will never go back to smokeless in your roller.

Well said and all true! I would not use anything but Black Powder in the Roller. The accuracy will amaze you and then you will never look back at smokeless. That smokeless stuff is just a passing fad ya know..........[smilie=1:


SS

[lawboy]

Thanks everyone for the information and help.
I think I will try some Black. I never have before but there is a first time for everything. I also have some 748 on the shelf so I will try that also. How about 760? I have lb of that too.

I am totally happy shooting rounds in the 900-1000fps range. My shooting needs are a load that will hit a 12-inch disc of steel and a 9-inch square of steel at 100 yards offhand every time, all day. That really is not too difficult. I may mount a Lyman SuperTarget Spot scope in 10x on this rifle some of the time just for fun and the cool looks. Jury is still out on that one.

Anyway, thanks again to all. Once I take delivery I will post more on the markings to see if anyone can give me a better idea of when it was made, etc.

[MtGun44]

Actually, if you only want the 1000 fps range loads, try
10-12 gr of Unique. Very mild load, usually quite accurate
and powder costs by the pound, not by the shot. You'll
get around 600 shots out of a pound of Unique, whereas
the 748 load, while great for hunting, kicks a LOT more and
you only get a bit over 120 out of your same cost pound of
powder.

Bill

[lawboy]

Went back to the shop today to pay off the rifle. Examined the upper rear tang. It is stamped 1902. I think I will be fine with my standard loads as stated in my original post. Thanks again to all. I cannot wait to start shooting this rifle!

[MtGun44]

The 1902 model was almost certainly a 7x57 originally, altho there
were a few made in other calibers, I've never seen one myself in
any other caliber for the #5 action. This is the newest and strongest,
and has the rimless extractor. You got a good one!

Bill

[9.3X62AL]

Just a few comments to agree with much of what is posted above.

The "black powder accuracy" element works in modern 45-70s, too. After 11 years of trying, I have yet to improve on the accuracy of BP in my Ruger #1 and its favorite boolit--the Lee PB 405. A few loads have matched it, but none have consistently bettered it. The loads that do well are all in the black powder ballpark velocity-wise, 1100-1300 FPS. That's called a "clue" where I used to work. The gentler recoil of these 1873-level loads are a plus on the shooting bench, too.

One of Ammohead's anecdotes always come to mind when discussions of this nature come up. If someone questions the effectiveness of cast boolits at modest velocities, his comment is "Have you seen many buffalo lately?"

[buckweet]

son of a gun!! this one interesting thread !

[.22-10-45]

Just remember..no matter if your rolling block is proofed for smokeless..there is only a tiny screw holding that firing pin in place..a pierced primer can propell it back..and your eye is right in line.

[John Taylor]

Lawboy, Please look at you load of RE7. Had a trapdoor blow up with light loads of RX7 a while back. The only powders that work good in light loads are pistol powders like Unique. If your using a rifle powder and the case is not filled almost all the way there is a chance for detonation which will take any gun apart.

[fifty4]

I bought a rem rollingblock all I can find on it is 45/70 creedmoor it has half oct. half round 26 inch barrel straight stock. that's about all I know. its all original but when I got it it was missing the rear sight. NOW the rear sight dovetail is over 1 1/2 inches long . the tang has been drilled for a tang sight, but not from the factory I thought these came drilled. what have I got? I intend to just shoot it but I would like to know what it is . thank you

[bigted]

pictures say volume's. close up photo's of the stock removed and both sides that was covered with wood as well as a nice close up of the upper tang top where the Remington stamping should be. also the top of the action where the barrel screws into the receiver ... military's were all round top whereas the sporting and later were octagonal topped ... mostly ... LOL

another indicator of a later roller is the rolling extractor along side the breech block rather then the bar extractor with fits into a slot in the barrel ring on the left side.

[Clark]

I bought a rolling block rifle off a gun show table 2 years ago. Neither the seller nor I knew what cartridge or what bore size. Prices at $495, offered $300, sold for $400.

I just wanted to experiment with it.
At home I figured out that it is a non SAAMI 38 special chamber it what looks like a Douglas barrel. The chamber is way tight at 0.380" diameter. Exactly what I would have done. I have a .380" straight fluted reamer for lengthening 38 special chambers.

I identified it as a No.5 either 1902 or 1910 model.

don't overload guns if you don't have the knowledge and equipment to do it safely
I worked up to the primer piercing. I switched to small magnum rifle primers. I worked up to piercing at ~ 357 mag double charges.
don't overload guns if you don't have the knowledge and equipment to do it safely

It jammed. I did not figure this out, someone figured it out for me. The gas came back through the firing pin hole and slightly rolled the hammer back. I got the action open and pounded out the case with a ram rod, and nothing is damaged, but the message is clear, this rifle needs safety margin away from primer piercing. Quickload thinks that load is 216,000 psi, which is meaningless.

Now that I look at the pic, maybe the gas leaked from AROUND the primer, and not piercing it.
I fired a lesser shot later to make sure it still works.

123903

123904

[rfd]

i like the rolling block action, but i don't feel comfortable with any of the metallurgy of those old remingtons, so i bought a pedersoli john bodine .45-70. even at that, i keep it to trap door load levels and only with my own cast lead boolits. i think these kinda rifles will always work best with black powder, too. keep it safe.

[Clark]

I went through a stress analysis of what a handi rifle could take in 45/70.
I determined it was several times higher than the brass.
I fired one shot of a 405 gr cast trapdoor starting load, and it kicked me so hard I did not shoot that rifle again for a year.

[rfd]

I went through a stress analysis of what a handi rifle could take in 45/70.
I determined it was several times higher than the brass.
I fired one shot of a 405 gr cast trapdoor starting load, and it kicked me so hard I did not shoot that rifle again for a year.

the .45-70 is a very versatile cartridge. it's the only caliber i have in my centerfire rifles.

if that was a standard 7# or so handi you fired, well, yeah, it can kick a bit with trap door loads, but lots depends on you and yer shooting form.

remove the butt plate, add buckshot or any kinda metal inside the stock hole, adding at least a pound. replace the butt plate and then add a recoil pad (like a kick killer). make SURE the recoil pad is firmly against yer shoulder as the hammer drops.

load some 405 lead with 12 grains of trail boss at about a 2.60" oal = ***** cat load, like a 22rf magnum. then load the same lead and oal over 25 grains of aa5744 = very nice, very accurate, some kick but nothing like what you previously experienced.