Look what was left on the doorstep...

[P.K.]

A cousin of the better half dropped this off for me to "look" at.

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61194

Question, what is the optimal barrel length to bob this thing at? It's 27 inches right now, he won't be doing much milsurp shooting with it and want's to learn to reload it for himself. J-word stuff although I can always use another mould to go in the roster. ;-)

The current issue of Shooting Times has an article on the 7.62X54 but it's with the authors handloads and with what I am presuming is a unaltered Finn.

Any info is appreciated,

Thanks.

[Mooseman]

Please...do not cut that barrel if it is a Finn especially! It destroys the value by 50%
25 inches is a normal nominal length for this caliber and 27 inches allows using a slower powder to achieve higher velocity.
Imr 4350 or Imr 4831 /H4831sc works great for fine tuning an accuracy load.
Rich

[Ed in North Texas]

I could be mistaken but, with the D&T for the scope mount, there isn't much (if any) collector value to destroy. I once felt that longer barrels were highly desirable, and still do. But a short person clued me in that just because I was tall, and was comfortable with handling a longer rifle, didn't mean a short person would find the same length firearm comfortable to carry all day, through woods, etc.

Good point about slower powders though. That would be a good point if your cousin reloads, or you reload for him.

[EMC45]

IMR-4350 is what I load with for an M91 and M38.

[Chicken Thief]

Anything over 22" is not needed and you can go 20" without loosing much.
Powders has evolved tremendously since 1891!

[P.K.]

No collector value needed here, he wants a freezer filler that would be a little easier handling in the thick stuff while not loosing too much off the "top" as it were. I don't belive it's a Fin, round action, correct? Fins have a square or octagonal?

[Hang Fire]

Finns made some of these up as sporters. Who is maker of that scope, what is the barrel shank stamped name, bore diameter? Could be a round receiver M28 or a M28/30.

[P.K.]

Pretty sure it's not a Fin, I can see a hammer and cycle surrounded by a wreath under the bell of the scope. Round reciver cir. 1927 SN#13490 I can't read Cyrillic so here are a couple of shots:
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61206


The scope is a "Shooters Edge" dime store special, 3-9X50, not my choice since the bell is right on the rear sight. But, his gun and he likes it. I just slugged it and it's a .311 dia.

[P.K.]

Here is the location of the stamps on the reciver. On the Left is the Hammer and Cycle surrounded by wreath. Right is a drawn bow w/arrow near the base.

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[bruce drake]

cut it to 20 and have a good crown put on it. Its one of 5 million they made by the looks and as they said already, the chopped bolt and scope mount have dropped it out of collector status anyways.

[KCSO]

I prefer 24" myself but have cut and crowned many to from 20" to 26". Just depends on what YOU liike. As to loading info pert near all the loading books have loads listed for the 7.62x54R and it is right up there with the 30-06 in power.

[Piedmont]

The standard length on the 91/30 is 28.5" and it is a relatively light barrel so it balances nicely. I would leave the length as-is, it helps with the muzzle blast if you shoot surplus.

To the fellow that said 25" is the standard length on these: NONE of them are 25". The short ones (38 & 44) are 20.5". Most Finns are 27". M91/30s are 28.5" and M91s are 31.5".

[Larry Gibson]

I'd leave the barrel length right where it's at also. Better for cast bullets to push slow and longer for hunting, etc.. If not I wouldn't go below 26" intially. It's easy to remove more in the future if he wants it shorter. Awful hard to put barrel back on......... I shortened a few barrels in years past and always wished I hadn't later on..........

Larry Gibson

[Multigunner]

Have the owner hold the rifle muzzle down at his side by the grip in his shooting hand. Then calculate/estimate how short the barrel would have to be that the muzzle would be clear of the ground by one to two inches when held that way.
Best guess for the average size guy is 22 inches.
You might want to try it at 24 first.

[I'll Make Mine]

Don't cut it. If the front sight globe is in the way, drift it out of the dovetail (and I'd certainly suggest taking the rear sight base off its dovetail, assuming it isn't soldered on, to provide clearance for the scope) -- if he wants a brush gun, trade him something else; the Mosin will shoot better with the longer barrel, have less muzzle blast (at least with surplus and factory loads -- faster powder will cut blast, but cost you muzzle velocity even in a shorter barrel), and the extra weight will help control recoil and muzzle rise.

BTW, assuming that ATI stock is floated, the 91/30 barrel is reputed to shoot better with a support point at the tip of the fore end, than fully floated (though that varies from rifle to rifle). If it's not floated, a couple shims under the action at the screws (.015 to .040 range) will float the barrel, then a piece of cork or friction tape will support the barrel to provide a fixed point, and the extra space between receiver and magazine often improves operation of the interrupter (which prevents rim lock).

[P.K.]

I appreciate all the info gentlemen, a few things to consider and inspect in the future. I will advise to leave the barrel alone though. Don't quote me on it but the only "heavy stuff" he encounters is on the way to his tree stand.

As for the fit and finish, my first thoughts were to drift the irons of to leave room for the scope and to "clean" up the profile a bit. As for the stock, it is an ATI and I had a bill on me so no the bbl isn't supported so that will be another item on the "to do" list. Right now I have the bolt removed looking over the trigger and bolt. Being my first look at a Mosin that isn't going under a track or having a torch cutting the bolt, is it unusual for the rear to "float" while the trigger is traveling to the rear? He mentioned that the bolt seems to "lift" while the trigger is pulled. The action locks up solid and I noticed the cocking piece does rise a bit and fall with the trigger travel. My Gun Digest on disassembly/reassembly makes no mention of this paticular item. I can see how it might be a little unnerving being used to shooting "modern" bolt guns watching any protion of the carrier move while firing. But as the Mosin carrier is made of 3 major portions, cocking knob, bolt connector and bolt head I can see there may be some movment involved even with positive lockup at the chamber. I'm just curious if this is normal or has fatigue reared it's ugly head?

Again Thanks for the input.

[I'll Make Mine]

Does this bolt movement occur when the piece is cocked, or only in the "after firing" condition? On my 91/30, the rear of the bolt has a little play when decocked, but when the sear is engaged and the firing pin spring compressed, there's no perceptible movement between taking up the trigger slack and breaking the shot (then again, my rifle came to me with the sear spring already bent in the mild S shape sometimes called a "Finned trigger" and sear polished; it was apparently optimized a little at the arsenal).

[P.K.]

Does this bolt movement occur when the piece is cocked, or only in the "after firing" condition? On my 91/30, the rear of the bolt has a little play when decocked, but when the sear is engaged and the firing pin spring compressed, there's no perceptible movement between taking up the trigger slack and breaking the shot (then again, my rifle came to me with the sear spring already bent in the mild S shape sometimes called a "Finned trigger" and sear polished; it was apparently optimized a little at the arsenal).

It actually resembles "taking up slack" as the trigger is pulled on a cocked chamber. The Cocking group drops an 1/8 inch or so as the trigger is taken up and then settles at the break. Sounds like it's due for this "Finned Trigger" you speak of. ;-)

[Ed in North Texas]

The standard length on the 91/30 is 28.5" and it is a relatively light barrel so it balances nicely. I would leave the length as-is, it helps with the muzzle blast if you shoot surplus.

To the fellow that said 25" is the standard length on these: NONE of them are 25". The short ones (38 & 44) are 20.5". Most Finns are 27". M91/30s are 28.5" and M91s are 31.5".

I think he was indicating that the usual length the barrels are cut to when "sporterized" is 25", not that the issue barrel length is 25".

[madsenshooter]

If you'd like to use one of those old Lyman or Redfield ramp sites, The Mosin has a .640 diameter barrel when cut to 23.5" I think I have one of those sights around here somewhere, a new in the box Lyman with gold bead. It's from back before they had a hood.

[wallenba]

Hex reciever...I would not cut that down just for that reason.

[UBER7MM]

PK,

I would tend to think that barrel length determines the type of hunting. A 27" barreled, scoped rifle probably isn't a brush gun. Looks more like a open medium to long range shooter. Ask your in-law what type of hunting/shooting he wants to do. Personally, I like it in its present configuration.

[I'll Make Mine]

It actually resembles "taking up slack" as the trigger is pulled on a cocked chamber. The Cocking group drops an 1/8 inch or so as the trigger is taken up and then settles at the break. Sounds like it's due for this "Finned Trigger" you speak of. ;-)

I just double checked -- my Mosin (a wartime production 91/30; not a model that would have had a lot of QC in manufacture, though possibly subject to more attention when arsenal refurbished some time after the war) has no discernible play in the cocking piece when cocked. This steadiness is the basis for a couple versions of mounting an aperture sight on the cocking piece (Smith Sights is now selling a replacement cocking piece with sight mounted; if I had $55 plus shipping to spare, I'd probably get one). If your cocking piece moves as much as you say when cocked, there's something not quite right -- check that the bolt is assembled correctly, firing pin spring has reasonable tension, etc. Also make sure the sear isn't damaged, then look for any number of YouTube videos on Mosin Nagant trigger work to see how to bend the sear spring (not much bend is needed), or order one of the "trigger improvement kits" that include a prebent sear spring along with a trigger return spring.

[pacomdiver]

just buy a timney trigger for it, they are sweet. i have several and they are a crisp break and it has a remington 700 style safety,

also weld that bolt handle on, they are drilled and tapped. i know 2 guys that used the screw and didnt weld them and the cheap screw snapped at the range

[wallenba]

The Timney is great. I have two installed now, but they require a lot of inletting to get them in right. Another good option is the Huber Concepts adjustable trigger. It needs very minor removal of wood inside, has a nice feel, but does not have a safety like the Timney. Also, your Mosin will appear original.
http://www.huberconcepts.com/Mosin-Nagant_Trigger_Replacement.htm

[dualsport]

Ain't it great? Man I love these old milsurps. Never ending source of entertainment. If the collector value is gone, it's gone. 22" seems like a good number to me. Lotta 22" barrels out there. Anything less is a carbine in my book, and a carbine shooting a rifle cartridge is going to be unpleasant. I have a 20.5" CZ 30-06, really barks. Isn't around 25" normal for a safari gun? They get used in brush. Don't burst your eardrums either.

[P.K.]

Long barrel and all, it shot well. Well after a good cleaning and about 6 rds. to get the zero back to POA. I confess and forgot to do the conversion for zero and used the 100 yd incraments. Whoops, dial it back and start over. ;-)

Any way I passed on the reccommendations and he was pleased, yet will "think about it." In his words, "It's a 100 yard gun, not planin' on much longer than that." I wen't ahead and made sure it would if needed and I'll blame the laddering on me and the fact that a breaze had the tgt stand waving like a prom queen at home coming. :mrgreen:

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He did ask about reloading for it and I told him that I doubt we could improve on the results but I'd have no problems showing him the ropes for his others. On his way out the door you'd think I had kicked a dog, "I haven't had homework to do in over 40 years." He was holding my copy of Richard Lee's Second Edition...:bigsmyl2:

[Kull]

Have the owner hold the rifle muzzle down at his side by the grip in his shooting hand. Then calculate/estimate how short the barrel would have to be that the muzzle would be clear of the ground by one to two inches when held that way.
Best guess for the average size guy is 22 inches.
You might want to try it at 24 first.

I like this advise. I'm 5'10", long arms, and prefer a 20" barrel if hunting to keep the thing out of the dirt.