Has anyone considered converting a Winchester .357 Magnum to a .357 Maximum?

[gunfan]

This is one of the few lever action rifle/carbine receivers that are capable of handling thin "ultra" .357. If you don't hot-shoe it, you can garner some decent 150 yard performance from this compact .35 caliber marvel.

Scott

[gundownunder]

Use the search function and you will find that this question has been asked and answered again and again and again, not only on this forum but on all the lever action related forums.

But just for the sake of safety, I will repeat one of the relevant points.
The 357 Max is a 48,000cup cartridge, and the 94 Winchester is not a 48,000cup action.

[missionary5155]

Greetings
I would do it.. You can work up loads safe for your chamber and never regret it.
I did a Marlin Glenfeild to a 414 Supermag and it makes a very nice thumper. Velocity gain over a 8 inch DW 414 SM is about 450 fps. Long barrels equal the opportunity to use slower powders so there you can keep overall pressures within the Win capabilities but still get good velocity gains over a .357 mag.
Difference in my 41 mag 20in carbine to my 414 SM 20 inch carbine is again about 350 with the same boolit weights. That is a real noticible increase.
Mike in Peru

[TCTex]

I don't know anything about leveractions, but the first thing that ran threw my head is, "Is the action long enough?"
:goodpost:

Sometimes wehave brain farts and forget this is a "forum" and not an "encyclopedia." There is SOOOOO much valuable information on this sight. The biggest problem is just finding it. And it isn't always doable in a "search..."
[smilie=l:


EG, I did a search for "357 Max" and only had 2 results.
:oops:


Duane

[gunfan]

I checked into this with either Sierra or Hornady (I can't remember which) and was told of the man in Hawaii that used the Winchester. This rifle was the only action long enough to function using the Maximum's overall loaded length.

The man had "fire walled" the cartridge and the groups opened up horribly.

Scott

[gunfan]

The .357 Maximum Conversions of Leverguns

Typically the conversation begins thusly...
I'm fairly new to the Winchesters and levers in general. On the NEF forum many have re-chambered their 357 Mag single shot rifles to .357 Maximum.

I realize the differences in the two type of guns and cartridges, but was wondering if anyone knew if a 357 Mag Winchester could chamber and eject the 357 Maximum? The Max is .315" longer overall.
The conversation then goes into the various .357/.38 cartridges and on and on...

I have a Max albeit in an other rifle (a Contender Carbine). With my background I am often asked for the "final word" on the subject.

I wouldn't mess with a perfectly good Winchester, unless you're positive the .357 Maximum has some kind of inherent qualities that improves it's performance over the .357 Magnum which I think is perfectly adequate in a rifle. Further, there are advantages to a rifle so chambered as compared to one chambered for the .357 Maximum. Increased power isn't always a better choice. Yes, the .357 Max can be loaded to approximate the .35 Remington but it is just cheaper to get the Marlin .35 Remington chambered rifle. Why not just get a .35 Remington? Because you can't shoot the .357 Magnum or .38 Special in it. The Magnum in a rifle approximates the Maximum in a pistol/revolver. The pressures are about the same for the .357 Mag and Max (SAAMI spec for the 357 Max is 40k psi, 5k more than the 357 Mag.) so overpressure is not an issue and the case head is the same, so bolt thrust is not an issue either.

I know of one person who converted a Marlin 1894C several years ago. The .357 Max cartridge is so long that by the time the action is opened up you get a very long (100 degrees?) rough lever throw. His would fire .38 Special, .357 Magnum, and .357 Maximum interchangeably but only if the lever is operated quickly and briskly. The Marlin M1894 had the lever throw increased because the bolt has to retract farther in order to clear the extra length of the loaded .357 Maximum round. That shooter did not feel that the expense was justified by the firearm's performance.

One shooter ordered a new Winchester 94 for this very project. The Winchester action is plenty long with room to spare. His view was that the .357 Maximum was operating at the same pressures as a .357 Magnum, the larger case of the Max allows for more powder, and will give more power than the magnum. It was supposed that the longer 94 action will make all the difference. Probably all that will be necessary is to run a 357 Max finish reamer in the chamber and take a file to the shoulder on the cartridge follower. Tycer L____ reports that his Winchester 94 .357 Magnum would actually accept .360 Dan Wesson ammunition. The .360 DW runs pretty close to .357 Maximum performance, but not quite.

It is true that most hunters do not handload, and it is reasonable to start a youngster on a gun with light .38 Special ammo and work up to some heavy Buffalo Bore, Cor-Bon, or Grizzly .357 Magnum or Maximum for hunting. There are no really light recoiling .30-30 loads for the non-handloader, but there are plenty of .38 Specials out there, at low cost. It could even double as a small game gun with wadcutters, and is excellent for self defense. As the child grows older and taller, a thick recoil pad can be added to increase the length of pull to the normal 13 1/2 inches.

Paco Kelly once responded with this...
I WAITED FOR EVERYONE TO GET THEIR FEELINGS OUT... HERE'S WHAT HAPPENS... FIRST YOU NEED AN EXCELLENT GUNSMITH, NOT A PARTS CHANGER... THE BOLT HAS A BOLT STOP PIN, THAT CAN BE CHANGED FOR THE LONGER THROW...THAT TAKES KNOW HOW SO YOU DON'T HAVE OVER TRAVEL, YES IT TAKES A LITTLE LONGER DRAW DOWN ON THE LEVER...AND IT WILL TAKE THE SAME DRAW FROM THAT TIME ON FOR 357S AND 38 SPECIALS, DON'T KNOW ABOUT THE MARLIN... BUT IT'S NO PROBLEM WITH MY WINCHESTERS... THE REAL PROBLEMS... SOMETIMES WORK HAS TO BE DONE ON THE LIFTER TO ALLOW THE FULL LENGTH OF THE 357 MAXI WITH A GOOD SIZED CAST OR JACKETED BULLET TO CLEAR THE TUBE... AGAIN A GOOD GUNSMITH.. I HAVE HAD IT DONE TO TWO 94S ONE WAS A 20 INCH BARREL... THE OTHER WAS A 24 INCH BARREL, IN VELOCITY BOTH WERE WELL WORTH IT...THE 20" GAVE AROUND 250 FPS+ MORE AND THE 24 INCH GAVE ANOTHER 150+ OVER THAT.... IT IS WORTH IT IF YOU DON'T MIND THE COST OF GUNSMITHING...
I STILL HAVE THE 24 INCH BARREL XTR 94 AND IT IS A BEAUT... ACCURACY HASN'T CHANGED STILL GOOD TO EXCELLENT... THE POWDERS USED IN THE MAXI ROUND HAVE CHANGED FROM THE 357 POWDERS... MINE TENDS TO LIKE SLOWER THAN h110 AND ww296 THOUGH THEY DO WORK... OF COURSE AS MOST OF MY READERS KNOW I USE 2400 IN EVERYTHING.. BUT THAT DOESN'T GIVE TOP VELOCITY... 4227 IS IN A GOOD BURNING RATE.... HOPE THIS HELPS THE REAL KEY IS THE GUNSMITH.... PACO
and later...

it was worth it... the efficiency of the cartridge and the velocity gain are significant... different gunsmiths will charge different prices... but it should be upper limit $150....paco
As I noted in my article on my Contender carbine, the straight wall case and ability to use carbide dies gave substantial advantage in case life and no need for sizing lube.

In my Max I can just get (with Lil'Gun) 2000 fps with 200 gr. bullets and 2150 fps with 180 gr. bullets. That is "max"ed out! Every rifle is different but I think that those fellows getting 2000 fps with 200 gr. bullets and H110/W296 are smokin' commo wire. Some are even using 2-4" shorter barrels than I am. I can't get those results (or even close) with H110/W296 without signs of excessive pressure.

It doesn't make sense that the MAG should come close to MAX performance and it doesn't in my rifle. I get 1650+ fps from the 180 gr. Rem SJHP and for 2000 fps must go to the 158 gr. (I used the XTP but the Gold Dot will do it as well).

One thing one can do, albeit at similar expense, is to rebarrel a .44 Mag 1894 to .357 Bain and Davis. This cartridge will give similar ballistic performance when compared to the .357 Max but not without effort. It is rightly saved as discussion for another time.

[uscra112]

I wouldn't. Nothing to do with whether it's a Winchester or not, but everything to do with the high pressures that the Max cartridge wants for it's much ballyhoo'd performance. I went through load development for a Contender Gen 1 which I had reamed out to the Max cartridge. Wasn't happy with how the full-house loads were treating that action, and wound up backing the pressure down to the point where a .357 Magnum case with the boolit seated fairly shallow would have done pretty much the same performance, (using Lil'Gun!). Your Winchester action will impose the same pressure limit. Leave it alone, do the load development, and be happy. Leave the Max to the Encore crowd.

(Full disclosure - I have an evil plan for a carbine length High Wall using the Max. There's an action that can handle it.)

[TCTex]

WOW Gunfan, you have really done your homework!


I love my 15.75in Contender in 357 Max. I am getting 2100fps with the 180gr SIL over 1680. H110 and the 180XTP had the same performance.


If you had a carbine/rifle barrel barrel able shoot the 180gr SSP bullet it would rock IMHO.


You have done a looot of work with the levers. I posted the links on your other thread mainly because of the rifle data and just a lot of good info from a carbine perspective.

[gunfan]

I must confess. That's another man's work.


Scott

[wrench man]

Sounds like a lot of work and expence to get in the mild 35 Remington range?

[gunfan]

The effort is not wasted, because the cartridge "package" is greatly reduced. The older, lower-pressured .35 Remington is, indeed, a venerable cartridge. There is, however, something to be said for a smaller, more energetic package. This would produce an accurate, yet sufficiently powerful cartridge for the application(s) at hand. Deer, boar, and black bear would surely fall to the cartridge without great difficulty.

Think of it as a highly energetic .357 S&W Magnum in a slightly larger package. Convenient, yet not exceedingly bulky. Such a round would seem to have it's niche.

Scott

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Well having read all this I still would go ahead and do it.
I have no regrets getting buying a pitted bore Marlin / Glenfield, sending it to JES to get rifled to .412, waiting a year for a 414 Supermag reamer to finish up with a 414 SM lever gun.
I think 400 fps is a wonderful gain over shooting the same 265 grain boolit in my 41 mag Marlin with the same barrel length. Can see no reason why a Winchester 94 action would not do the same.
The standard 94 action was what was used to test the 375 Winchester cartrige. There were no blowups. I know they reduced the milling on the receiver to leave the receiver heavier but was that because the 94 action was insufficient for factory loads or the lawyers saw handloaders going way beyond sanity.
So gunfan... If you have a hankering to do so then have at it. You won't be the first to give it a try. Admiral Richover once said.." Our doughts are traitors and make us loose the good we oft might gain by failing to attempt."
Mike in Peru

[BAGTIC]

The pressure is not the problem. 30-30 is 42,000 psi cartridge .357 Maximum is 40,000 psi cartridge. Besides that the head diameter of .30-30 is .422 while head of .357 Maximum is .379. .422/.379 = 1.134. Squaring shows case head area of .30-30 is 24 % greater than .357 Maximum. At the same pressure of 40,000 psi 30-30 produces 24% more bolt thrust than the 357 Max. If 30-30 is loaded to it's max psi (42,000 psi) it produces 30% more thrust than max 357 Maximum load. Besides the smaller diameter of the 357 case will increase chamber thickness by .0215 inches. For the .357 case to produce as much thrust as the 30-30 it would need to be loaded to 52,070 psi. That is higher than the SAAMI specs for the 7-30 Waters cartridge on a 30-30 headsize case. I don't know if the 7-30 Waters action was a special extra strength action or just the latest manufacture M94 action. I suspect the latter but I would be interested to know for sure.

The problen with the conversion is the cartridge length not the strength of the gun.

-ides. .

[357maximum]

I have a 15inch MGM encore pistol barrel, Babore has a 20 inch MGM encore rifle/carbine barrel...with the same max load of N-120 behind a BRP 180 grainer.......SAME SPEED

The max is a great round and I have certain feelings about it (well duh), but the barrel length increase will not gain you much....simply not enough fuel space in the case.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
If the caliber.357 lifter cannot be modified that .400 inches + to accomidate the longer brass it seems an easy swap to place a 38/55 or .375 Win lifter in there. I would have to study a .357 lifter some but I would think there is a mass of metal sitting there waiting for a dremel cut wheel to begin slicing.
Yes maybe there has to be a few adjustments. But then Nothing ventured nothing gained. And 350 + fps to me is a gain well worth the joy of a successful venture.
Mike in Peru

[Blammer]

357mag to 357 Max? no
357mag to 360 DW. YES, I did it on my Winchester, works good.

[fecmech]

357mag to 360 DW. YES, I did it on my Winchester, works good.
I think the .357 mag factory chamber on mine would handle the 360DW, it's that bad!

[Bruce A. Frank]

This is an old thread, but the questions go on. I have a Marlin 1894C converted to 357 Maximum. All of the claims that the action is too short and the pressures are too high originate from those worried about their liability and not an analysis of the design and other cartridges fired from exactly the same action.

Biggest problem is finding a gunsmith who actually had lever gun knowledge. That problem cost me dearly in twice having to start over with new parts after the butcher job of incompetent smiths...some whose name you would know! Let me say that the evolution of Cowboy shooting has given us smiths who do have the knowledge.

I have now put 2500+ shots through my Marlin. Firing JHP and JFP ranging in weight from 125 g to 200 g both in factory loads and reloads...all loaded to standard medium velocity loading using W296 exclusively with both 357 and 358 diameter bullets. Accuracy is better than when shooting 357 mag cartridges. Now, that accuracy improvement may be the result of the rechambering by Mike Bellm (now in St George, UT) an expert on TC rechambering in 357 Max. BTW, my rifle is an early model with the microgrove rifling, which does not provide good accuracy with cast bullets!

Let me add a bit more, The action pf the Marlin required shortening of the ejector, retiming of the carrier (called "lifter" in posts here) and a trimming back of the cartridge stop point on that carrier so it could handle the full length of the Max cartridge coming out of the magazine tube. Loading from the magazine and ejection of the fired case is flawless.

[Beerd]

Hi Bruce and Welcome!

Keep reading old posts on this forum and you may just change your mind about Micro-groove barrels and cast bullets.
..

[Moleman-]

Been working on a 336 to 357Max. Before starting on the octagon barrel I made a dummy barrel to test feeding and got it to feed 38, 357mag and Maximum. Had to add a shim to the top of the carrier to keep feeding cases from catching on the receiver interior left cutout, and to the bottom in order to change the timing on the carrier. The trick was to get the carrier timing so that it would cut off the rim diameter from being able to exit the magazine tube while still having a flat area that would allow movement of the lever (case head still resting on lever at this point) without raising the carrier more until cartridges between a 1.435" 38 special all the way up to a 2.150" 357 Maximum cartridge would feed. Got the barrel ROUGH profiled straight octagon to make it easier to chamber and index without worrying about the taper being wrong if it needed to be set back. Still need to put it back on the mill to taper it, draw file, polish , dovetails, mag tube clearance cut on the bottom, make a front sight, rust blue, refinish stock. Hope to have it done by November 15.

Marlins have been chambered in 375 and 307 win which both have higher chamber pressure (50Kpsi, 52Kpsi) and a larger case head dia which means higher bolt thrust. The area where I hunt it limited to straight walled cartridges less than 1.8" long. Keeping the chamber pressure under 52Kpsi you're still in 35rem book load territory for velocity with the bullets I hunt with. It would be a lot less work to be able to use a 35Rem, but without the DNR restrictions I'd just use my 444 Marlin or 30-06.

[HawkCreek]

The Winchester 94 should handle the pressure of a .357 Maximum no problem. They have recently brought to market model 94's in .450 Marlin and .480 Ruger which have respective MAP's of 43,500 psi and 48,000 psi. Both of those are higher than the 40,000 psi SAAMI gives to the .357 Max with correspondingly greater bolt thrust than the .357 would have. I think it would be an interesting project if one were so inclined.

[indian joe]

Good morning
Well having read all this I still would go ahead and do it.
I have no regrets getting buying a pitted bore Marlin / Glenfield, sending it to JES to get rifled to .412, waiting a year for a 414 Supermag reamer to finish up with a 414 SM lever gun.
I think 400 fps is a wonderful gain over shooting the same 265 grain boolit in my 41 mag Marlin with the same barrel length. Can see no reason why a Winchester 94 action would not do the same.
The standard 94 action was what was used to test the 375 Winchester cartrige. There were no blowups. I know they reduced the milling on the receiver to leave the receiver heavier but was that because the 94 action was insufficient for factory loads or the lawyers saw handloaders going way beyond sanity.
So gunfan... If you have a hankering to do so then have at it. You won't be the first to give it a try. Admiral Richover once said.." Our doughts are traitors and make us loose the good we oft might gain by failing to attempt."
Mike in Peru

Mike I had a 375 big bore for several years - NOT an angle eject model - always thought the difference in action was pure and simple a marketing ploy - which winchester did a lot of over the years starting with Ollie hisself - and how easy was this one to put in action? could not think of a simpler, easier modification and it looked the part as well .