30 caliber HP for deer and bear?

[Spokerider]

A bud is going to cast me some 202 gr 30 caliber GC boolits for my 30 40 Krag, 1800 to 2000 fps.
The question is; hollow point or solid?

These will be used for close range work on deer, bear and cougar, at 75m or less. Deer and cougar do not present much of a challenge for this, but a 400lb angry black bear might be.....
The alloy will be WW with 2 percent tin added.........either air cooled or water dropped.

I'm leaning toward the HP, but wonder if the nose will just fragment on impact with bone. Will the air cooled boolits be hard enough to avoid leading?
I'm thinking softer is better for the HP, but wish to avoid leading.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

[largom]

I would mix 50/50 wheel weights and lead and not use hollow point. I run a mix of 55% lead and 45% WW with a little extra tin at 2200 fps in 30 cal. with no leading. I use Felix lube and shoot at a .311 dia.

Larry

[Norbrat]

How to make a soft nose boolit: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?11749-Casting-Softnose-Bullets-From-ANY-Conventional-Moulds

[Wolfer]

I personally prefer a softer alloy and a small HP. If the nose blows off a heavy boolit I don't mind. I'm still left with a fairly heavy wadcutter which is better than a small flat or round point. If the nose don't break off I still don't mind. Penetration has never been an issue for me with a boolit in excess of 160 gr @ 1700 fps.

Your mileage may vary!

[waksupi]

Just say no to hollow points.

[Larry Gibson]

I prefer HP cast bullets for hunting. I have been using such very successfully for 40+ years. I suggest a softer alloy; add the 2% tin to COWWs and then add 50% lead to that. AC the bullets and let age for 7-10 days. The HP should be 1/8" diameter and about 3/16" deep. With such a HP cast bullet of .30 cal weighing 190 - 200 gr at 1800 - 2000 fps you will have excellent expansion and terminal effects on deer, elk and even a BB at the ranges you mention. Of course it is up to you to put the bullet in the right place. My preference is always to hunt with such HP'd .30 cal cast bullets as they have consistently performed better than soft pointed cast and certainly better than harder cast bullets offering no expansion regardless of the meplat. I've shot a lot of game with such over the years and with shoulder/heat/lung shots the penetration is always through and through.

Porperly cast HPs just give better terminal performance.

Larry Gibson

[nighthunter]

My son and I both hunt deer with 311-165 GC that I cast of 50/50 alloy with a small amount of added tin. We both shoot the same load of 32.0 gr 4895 in our 30-06's. My son prefers the HP version and I the solid version. My deer come home the same amount of dead as his. I have never recovered a bullet from the carcasses so I can't tell which penetrates better. I have used the HP version in a 30/30 with 20.0 gr 4198 and a good hit drops them in their tracks. The bullet and the velocity regardless of which launcher you choose is more than adequate for your intentions. Just get at least 1800 fps or more and you will do fine.

Nighthunter

[Spokerider]

Thanks for the replies.
Larry, I gotta ask........what is COWW? I'm thinking it's "clamp on wheel weights"?
Get any leading with COWW's plus 2 percent tin / 50 percent pure lead added?

Thanks.

[leftiye]

Larry, I'm some confused. Are you talking an alloy that's 33% pure and 67% WW or are you using 50/50 WW/pure? BTW, I like your ideas on hollowpoints. I don't like the old style hollowpoints that are small and continue clear back to the driving bands. Just flatten the nose with the expansion. Don't shed the mushroom more than once.

[crawfobj]

Larry is talking about 50% pure and 50% clip on wheel weights, with up to 2% tin added to improve fill-out in the mold. Air cooled.

[runfiverun]

the 2% tin is added to the ww's, and then that is mixed with the soft lead 50-50.

[Rangefinder]

"IF" you want to go HP's on deer and cougar, then definitely cut that COWW alloy 50-50 as suggested. Otherwise it will shatter rather than deform. Personally, I'd say go with a FN solid for all three. Definitely don't take the HP out after bear. Thick hide, thick fat layer, thick muscle, and some pretty heavy bone around any vitals---you want all the retained mass and penetration you can get.

[Spokerider]

This is the NOE 202gr boolit.

http://noebulletmolds.com/orders/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=31&products_id=167

Not exactly a FP, but it what he has, and is what he is offering to cast for me. It will be sized to .310
I don't know the design of the hollow point cavity, but because it's a round nose, I was thinking that the HP would be *closer* to a wide meplat than that sharpish looking round point.

[30-30]

i've cast some 311299 lyman about 210gr app. and did not get a good result it was a little nose havey have had better result wit 311291 175 gr. gcis and is my favovite for 30-30 for sure.I shot the 210 gr out of a 300savage:castmine:

[waksupi]

Considering your location, I will tell you what colors my preference to no hollow points. Where we live, we can run into large bears, or an irate moose cow. I want something I can shoot into one end if necessary, and have the boolit exit from the other end. I do not want anything that will hinder deep penetration.
I would definitely want more of a flat point than the boolit shown.

[Rangefinder]

+100 to that ^^^ One thing you DON'T want when facing down something big and upset is a boolit that can't get to the broiler room on a less-than-ideal facing. Moose shoulders are tough with the best of conditions. I won't even talk about the bear one might find up and around the Bob Marshal Wilderness that Waksupi is referring to.

[Larry Gibson]

Thanks for the replies.
Larry, I gotta ask........what is COWW? I'm thinking it's "clamp on wheel weights"?
Get any leading with COWW's plus 2 percent tin / 50 percent pure lead added?

Thanks.

It's actually Clip On Wheel Weights..........not to be confused with SOWWs (Stick On Wheel Weights) which are mostly pure lead.

As I've posted in the past you will begin to get some fouling after 7-8+ shots depending on velocity, lube and barrel condition when pushing 2000+ fps. I clean the barrel every 5 shot test group (sufficient for hunting purposes) and after every 5 -7 shots in the field. I only use this alloy AC'd and pushed to max that the cartridge and twist will allow for hunting accuracy to 200 yards for hunting big game. If I've not got the game in those 5 - 7 shots I might as well go home and clean the rifle.......eh?

Larry Gibson

Let me add that I use this alloy AC'd but many WQ or HT it and can then shoot it to higher velocity without the fouling. I just prefer the softer alloy for excellent expansion in game with out the HP nose blowing off or the the shedding of expansion petals. Weight retention and penetration are excellent.

[jhalcott]

311041 and 311291 have worked fine for me on Md. deer. Also a couple up in Maine! I would hesitste to use a HP on a BIG bear. They have a thick fur and lots of fat to get thru.

[Spokerider]

You must be cleaning the bore an awful lot. lol. Just kidding. Thanks for the explanation on my leading question.

Larry, do you think that the link to the NOE bullet will perform as desired [ mushroom ] with the alloy that you use, considering the sharpish looking nose?

I'm on Van Isle......no moose here, but lots of bear.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, I'm some confused. Are you talking an alloy that's 33% pure and 67% WW or are you using 50/50 WW/pure? BTW, I like your ideas on hollowpoints. I don't like the old style hollowpoints that are small and continue clear back to the driving bands. Just flatten the nose with the expansion. Don't shed the mushroom more than once.

As mentioned I am talking about adding 2% tin to the COWWs. Then with that alloy (an excellent all around alloy in and of itself for AC'd or WQ'd bullets BTW) I add 50% lead; 10 lbs of COWWs alloy =2% tin (3.2 oz of tin) and then add 5 lbs of lead. You end up with basically 15 lbs of alloy (15 lbs 3.2 ozes if you exactly measured everything)

Larry Gibson

leftiye

BTW; if you've read much of my posts concerning HP cast bullet you'll find that I too, long ago, became dissatisfied with the long deep typical Lyman HP. After much experimentation with the Forster HP tool I have shortened the HP stems of my rifle HP moulds so the HP depth is 1/8 to 3/16" deep. With a softer alloy as I've mentioned expansion is excellent w/o the loss of the nose or expansion petals. A deep HP is good on HPs used for varmints with a more brittle alloy so they blow up. Also a much wider and deeper HP is needed for handgun cast bullets for reliable expansion, especially the lower velocity bullets.

[357maximum]

Hollowpointed cast for properly made for little deer and other little things that you do not mean to eat- YES
Hollowpointed cast for large edible things, small things that you wanna eat, or things that can eat you back-NO

Cast hollowpoints can work spectacularly well when everything is perfect(speed/alloy/design), but get one part of the balancing act out of tune and you can have an epic failure....not gonna be risking my "meat" to an epic failure anytime soon and flatpointed cast made from a mallable/tough alloy works 100% when you put them in the right spot.


Just the law of averages alone would make me not face down a bear with anything having a hollow nose...but you decide as it is your "meat" on the line afterall.

[Gray Fox]

In the above described bear target rich environment I'd carry my .45-70 GG instead, I'm afraid. GF

[Larry Gibson]

There's a lot of discussion about "bear" loads and bullets. Most everyone seems to think you're always going to have to "face down" a bear......but that just isn't so. The % of "facing down" shot bears vs hunted shot bears is very, very small. I lived in BB country for many years, walked many a mile in the woods and never had to "face down" one. I did come nose to nose with a grizz in Alaska but that is not what the OP asked about. He asked about hunting BBs. I have killed 3 BBs (none were "faced down" as all were hunted) all using HP bullets. Two of those were with cast HPs which killed the bear dead. One was with a 30-30 with the 311041HP cast of the aforementioned alloy. The two shot with cast HPs required but one shot and both were through and through on the 200 - 250 lb BBs. I also killed a 300+ lb BB with my M1911 with the Speer 200 JHP "FAT" bullets.

I've no qualms about hunting BBs with .30 cal cast HPs of correct alloy and weight at an appropriate velocity. However, if I have to "face down" a bear, even a lowly BB, I would prefer to have my 375 H&H M70 with 300 gr JSPs at 2550 fps or my 45-70 Siamese Mauser with 400 gr Original Barnes JSP at 2300 fps.......both Jacketed bullets..........actually I prefer to let you "face down" the bear and I'll back you up..... from a safer distance.........

Larry Gibson

[1Shirt]

I also prefer hp's. However, think that for heavy hunting blts in 30 cal, the HP need not be very deep. Think about a quarter of an inch would suffice in all cases.
1Shirt!

[popper]

Could be wrong but I don't remember seeing HP 12 ga. slugs.

[Ramslammer]

G'Day
12g come in all manner of style including those Tuppaware tipped things.
Juddy

[357maximum]

I admit it......I have never been passed through the gastrointestinal tract of a bear....not wanting much to be bear poop either. Sure you may not have to FACE DOWN a bear while merely hunting them, but what if?

correct alloy and weight at an appropriate velocity....what if you happened to have gotten it slightly incorrect? Cast HP's are a balncing act that is kind of graduate study castboolits. Not everyone here has his masters AND WE ARE ALL HUMAN...FOR THE MOST PART ANYWAY. You are not going to know how wrong/right you were till it's too late. Much less to go wrong with a solid nosed projectile, if you feel your alloy needs a bit more expansion sit them in a shallow pan of water and anneal the nose, then you still have a boolit with better degree of known integrity.

Last time (only time) I came somewhat nose to nose with a smallish black bear I was only armed with a 357Mag stoked with Glens' 180WFN and a bag full of morel mushrooms, but luckily I did not look like supper and my prescence alone made him leave....luckily. I hear tell ya.....I felt waaay undergunned and I am glad I did not have to pee. A 445supermag in my paws proably would not have made me feel any better though. Now that I ponder it further, I do not think I would hunt big BB with anything less than my 35REM using cast.


my opinion and my "steaks"......but please feel free to do whatever you want with your "steaks"




I ask the question yet again.....WHY RISK IT?

[Spokerider]

It's all good info guys, thanks.

Yes, I have a bunch of other guns I *could* carry, and do,......like a 45 70 GG for one, but like most here I have more than one iron I want to carry / hunt with.
This time around it happens to be a contender in 30 40 Krag.......nice and light, easy to carry, and 8 rounds of ammo in my pack doesn't weigh 1.5lbs either.

I have never killed anything with a cast boolit, nada, so I consider myself very fortuneate to be able to get sound advice from those with experince in such matters.

In many years of hunting and hiking in bear counrty, I have never had to shoot a bear that wanted to eat me. I've seen the bluff charge, the stare-down / king of the mountain challenge look, the front feet ground-stomp, heard the jaws snapping and have heard the huffs. Never felt like I HAD to shoot though. Sometimes I've been hiking or mtn biking with no gun, other times I have been hunting when I've had such a bear encounter. But, one day that may change and I may have to shoot.

Is there one "perfect bullet" that will take down deer, lion and bear with every shot at any angle, time and time again? Who knows.
I am just looking to have my bud cast me some boolits from his mold that will mushroom on deer and lion, and that will hold together well enough to get into the boiler of a bear.

[Wadestep]

IMHO you are asking for both positive expansion on thin skinned animals and penetration on thick animals. No 1 boolit will be optimal for both. Y solution- carry the appropriate expanding round for your intended target, and a backup handgun for the possibilities.

[303Guy]

The worst I can be faced with is a very large and rare feral pig (smaller ones have been known to get upset) or perhaps an even rarer feral bull but more likely an irate deer red deer during the rut (and those things don't come small). Even so, I want a boolit capable of reaching the boiler room from any angle. So .... I'm thinking a heavy for caliber, small hollow nose or large meplat, tough but malleable alloy boolit.

[Spokerider]

Well, my bud has done some test casting with the NOE 314299 mold and the alloy that Larry uses. He has sized the boolits to .310 as asked, but the nose comes out at .304".

What is the significance of this smaller nose? I guess this alloy shrinks more than just WW and tin. Will it matter?

Thanks.

[runfiverun]

the 314299 is supposed to have a 304 nose and a body in the 313-314 range.
it's for the 31 cal rifles.
if you want a 300 nose and more like 311 body then you get the 311299,311290,311291,or 311284.

[Spokerider]

Yes, I know that this mold is for .311 caliber, but it is what he has, and is what he is offering to cast for me........sized to .310

About the .304 nose....from the reading / net research that I've been able to come up with regarding 30 40 Krag cast bullet design / bore riding nose, a sloppy or loose fitting bore riding nose, as in .299" is detrimental to accuracy. Glen Fry claimed good accuracy with a bore riding nose of .300" with his Krag cast boolit loads.

So, if the nose of the boolit is .304", will there be any fit / chambering problems with the Krag? One would think that the snug fit of the .304 nose would offer good accuracy, no?

[45 2.1]

So, if the nose of the boolit is .304", will there be any fit / chambering problems with the Krag? One would think that the snug fit of the .304 nose would offer good accuracy, no?

Providing it fits, which might be questionable with that nose size. Try it and see. If it doesn't, the boolit your asking for is the RCBS 180 gr. flat nose/GC. Cast it of 50% COWW/ 50% dead soft lead and water drop it from the mold. It will do what your asking for.