.38 special blow up and questions regarding proper loadings.

[ell198679]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?183586-38-special-defense-load&highlight=.38+special+loads I recently had a gun blew up on me I was using 3.2 grains of win 231, magnum pistol primers, and jacketed hollow points 110 grain. I believe I loaded to little amount of powder, PSI must of been off the charts, but shouldn't all of this of been fine?? According to the link you can even use a heavier projectile with that amount of powder. I am guessing my scale must of been bumped or something. Everyone I have talked says the magnum pistol primers are fine in low to medium loads. Considering gas ejection at the front of the cylinder it must not take much of mistake. Only use digital scale now lol.

[williamwaco]

You need to look for a different cause.

You may have had a bullet lodged in the barrel but not by the load you mentioned.

There are two likely possibilities.

1) Fired a round with no powder, heard only a click. The bullet lodged in the forcing cone. Then fired the next round with powder and a bullet lodged in the barrel.
A primer only will not generally force a 158 grain bullet into the barrel. It usually lodges halfway between the cylinder and the forcing cone. ( Don't ask how I know that. )
With a 110 grain bullet and a magnum primer It is certainly credible that it forced the bullet completely out of the chamber.

2) Triple powder charge.
It is very unlikely that a double charge would do that.
According to my manuals a double charge would only get you to the +P pressure level. That would not cause a catastrophic failure.

[ell198679]

1) Fired a round with no powder, heard only a click. The bullet lodged in the forcing cone. Then fired the next round with powder and a bullet lodged in the barrel.

This does make sense I did have some rounds, which did fail to ignite with a primer strike. However, I find it strange that I forgot to put powder in all together.

[fouronesix]

Could be lodged bullet thus bore obstruction- kaboom. However, I quit using ball powder for anything a long time ago for a reason. Besides the possibilities of overcharge or classic bullet bore obstruction... light charges of ball powder can do one more type of kaboom.

The primer fires, the bullet is pushed (by the primer impulse) into the forcing cone and stops, the rest of the charge ignites- kaboom.

[ell198679]

231 is flake powder they are shaped like flakes any way.

[bcp477]

Not that it matters, in this circumstance, but 231 IS a "ball type" powder. It is made as a ball powder - with spherical granules. Then, it is squashed flat, to form the round flakes you describe. So, it does share some of the characteristics of "ball" powders.

However, as someone else said, that load did NOT kaboom your revolver. There definitely is another cause - and I'm betting on a barrel obstruction, too.

[Char-Gar]

A bullet stuck in the barrel might cause a bulge in the barrel but will not cause the handgun to blow up.

The problem was not Win. 231 powder.

The probem is a double or triple charge of powder. Did you use a progressive press, because if you did, there is the cause. You won't have to work very hard to double charge a case with this type of equipment.

[35remington]

Ball powder is not prone to problems that flake powders avoid. Some of the bad characteristics of slow ball powder like W296 when used with light charges, loose case fit and uncrimped ammo in revolvers are not characteristics that W231 is prone to. So blaming W231 for the problem is barking up the wrong tree.

One of the rules of thumb is this: If there is room in a case for more than one charge of powder, sometimes more than one charge will get loaded if you are not vigilant. A bullet lodged in the forcing cone is also possible. 3.2 grains is a quite light charge with a 110 grain bullet in a 38 special case and sticking a bullet in the barrel is a possibility. Loading density with such a shallowly seated bullet is low, and so is pressure and velocity. A magnum primer may make things worse.

[Larry Gibson]

1) Fired a round with no powder, heard only a click. The bullet lodged in the forcing cone. Then fired the next round with powder and a bullet lodged in the barrel.

This does make sense I did have some rounds, which did fail to ignite with a primer strike. However, I find it strange that I forgot to put powder in all together.

You have the probable answer to your question. A 110 gr J bullet has a very short bearing surface and a magnum primer may well have driven it into the forcing cone allowing the cylinder to turn and and you fired the next round with the 1st bullet stuck in the throat. An additional problem is that if the primer strikes failed to ignite the powder perhaps there was little or no powder present? If so then the small charges may be "bridging" in the powder thrower and then double or triple charging a case. Or if using a progressive press the cases are not charged consistently. I can assure you that a triple charge may be very destructive by itself.....but if a double or triple charge just happened to come up (Murphy is alive and well in this sport) behind a bullet lodged in the throat then a "blow up"" is most certain........fortunately you’re not injured (?) and have learned a lesson, albeit an expensive and embarrassing lesson.....

Larry Gibson

[ell198679]

Luckily got the gun replaced. But yes very important lesson happy it happened in a strange way.

It could of also been a low charge, that simple could not eject the bullet. would that of have caused a blow up?

[thegreatdane]

Luckily got the gun replaced. But yes very important lesson happy it happened in a strange way.

It could of also been a low charge, that simple could not eject the bullet. would that of have caused a blow up?

yep. Bore obstructions are bad things

[Norbrat]

A bullet stuck in the barrel might cause a bulge in the barrel but will not cause the handgun to blow up.

Oh, really??

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8086/8467546100_ce7b3da73d_c.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/11260137@N07/8467546100/)

Happened at our club.

[BCRider]

A bullet which sticks just barely into the forcing cone would jam the next one before it leaves the cylinder. And that last picture could be a possible outcome. In fact it wouldn't surprise me if that was the situation with that poor gun.

[odoh]

This thrd caught my eye as there was a time 50yrs ago re 3.2 grs bulls eye destroying guns in the target shooters ranks. Deemed mysterious at the time and squib loads discussed and dismissed. In fact IIRC the term used was detonation. Another mystery at that time was reduced charges of 4831 in the 25-06. Concensus was detonation from 'pressure wave' changing ignition characteristics. Weired coincidence of history repeating itself :-?

[462]

This is your second thread in which an improper powder charge is a likely suspect to your problems. Look into the method you use to charge the cases, as it's seems there is a lack of control whether the case has been charged with the correct amount of powder, or not.

[Junior1942]

This is your second thread in which an improper powder charge is a likely suspect to your problems. Look into the method you use to charge the cases, as it's seems there is a lack of control whether the case has been charged with the correct amount of powder, or not.Either that or attach a flag to your hat so we won't get at the bench beside you :-(

[GBertolet]

Just out of curiosity, what is your method of charging your cases? Do you pick up an empty case from a bin, charge it, and place it in a loading block? Or do you have all your empty cases in a loading block, and charge them while in the block? Or is there some other procedure you use?

[Larry Gibson]

This thrd caught my eye as there was a time 50yrs ago re 3.2 grs bulls eye destroying guns in the target shooters ranks. Deemed mysterious at the time and squib loads discussed and dismissed. In fact IIRC the term used was detonation. Another mystery at that time was reduced charges of 4831 in the 25-06. Concensus was detonation from 'pressure wave' changing ignition characteristics. Weired coincidence of history repeating itself :-?

Both have been disproven, Federal and Hercules conducted extensive tests and determined it took a double charge with the bullet seated deeply or a triple charge of Bullseye to cause such damage. The cause of the double charge and triple charges were traced to progressive loading machines then in use.....both now discontinued............we continue to find this problem today with much better progressive loading machines when improperly operated or attention is not paid to the loading process. Surprisingly it also happens frequently with single stage loading when the operator also fails to pay attention and use quality control checks to ensure a double or triple charge doesn't happen along with under charged cases. The reason we see "visually inspect every case to ensure a proper powder charge " is an admonishment to head......

The cause for slow burning powders such as 4831 to cause blow ups has been proven and replicated. It is now referred to as S.E.E. (Secondary Explosion Effect) Wave "detonation" is a theory that has not been proven.

Larry Gibson

[fecmech]

This thrd caught my eye as there was a time 50yrs ago re 3.2 grs bulls eye destroying guns in the target shooters ranks. Deemed mysterious at the time and squib loads discussed and dismissed. In fact IIRC the term used was detonation.
I have a copy of the American Rifleman article showing the testing of BE by the HP White lab with the pressures involved and posted it here in the past. There was no BE "detonation" only careless reloading practices. A friend of mine blew up a K frame right next to me shooting PPC with the "Classic" 2.7/BE. Took the top half of the cylinder and top strap and I got a small cut in the side of my face. He was using an inline progressive that was a copy of the CH Auto Champ and admitted to me that he had had some jams and had "jiggled" the handle a couple times and from that we surmised more than 1 charge of powder. He sent the gun to S&W and said he believed he was at fault in the letter. Smith replaced the frame swapping his good parts over and only charged him about $40. IIRC (mid 70's).

[swheeler]

Either that or attach a flag to your hat so we won't get at the bench beside you :-(

That's funny Jr but does sound like a good idea. I think a bore obstruction is probably the correct answer and possibly rounds fired in the order they were loaded. That meaning a case with only a primer to drive bullet into barrel then next round a double charge fired into the stuck bullet. Where did you ever find loading data with 3.2 gr 231 and a 110 gr bullet, that is 2 full grs under a starting load. Sounds like you need to refine your loading technique before you get hurt, or hurt someone else.

[44man]

Bore obstruction! It can and WILL blow up a gun. Damage depends on how far down the bore the obstruction is.

[DrCaveman]

When shooting light loads like this, one should get in the habit of listening to the report of each shot. I've noticed that even really light loads, even 22 lr, have a distinct secondary sound after the initial boom.

I think the two distinct sounds are coming from 1)the hammer strike, primer explosion, and initial powder explosion happen basically simultaneously, and the sound comes from the chamber area to your ear.

2) the bullet leaves the barrel at (possibly) supersonic speed, followed by burned powder gases moving just as fast. This sound folds back around the barrel, as well as resonates/reverberates in your local area (indoor range=walls, outdoor range=draw or canyon walls). A longer barrel should generally result in less contribution of the powder gases on the barrel end, it's why a 22 pist is louder than a rifle. Also explains why a 28" 30-06 will have a more noticeable secondary sound than a 44 mag... Time delay.

If you don't hear both parts of the report, stop immediately and check the barrel. Additionally, if the report is substantially greater for either of the two portions, stop, check the case for pressure signs or gun for damage. Prob stop shooting that load, pull the rounds.

Hope this helps

[snowwolfe]

This thread opens up a topic that should be repeated to both new and old shooters.

ANY TIME you suspect a dud, squib, misfire, etc. ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS check to see if the bore is clear before firing another round. If you get more than one bad round out of a batch stop shooting and pull the bullets to find out what is wrong.

[dragon813gt]

Light loads should be treated like subsonic suppressed loads. Always listen to the report but you need to make sure it hit the target as well. If it didn't show on target assume it's a squib or FTF and check your firearm. The only squib I loaded so far was preceded by a double charge. Luckily it was light 38 loads and I was firing them in a 357 lever. Definitely heard the report from the double charge. Heard next to nothing for the follow up shot because it was primer only. Changed my charging procedure after this incident. It's not one I want to ever repeat.

[GT27]

Think pipe bomb!:dung_hits_fan:

[Silver Jack Hammer]

I’ve read about these mysterious blow ups in articles by Mike Ventrino and Alan Jones. Funny thing is it seems to always be a light load. Cowboys blow up their .45’s when they load them down. A buddy of mine blew up is clone .45. Alan Jones notes that a double charge of light fast powder is usually not enough to blow a gun. The detonation theory sounds good but it has never been duplicated in lab tests and again Alan Jones states that the tiny dollop of powder simply does not generate enough power to blow a gun.

I accidentally torched off a second 240 gr semi jacketed boolit with 22 gr of 2400 when I already had another 240 gr semi jacketed stuck in the barrel. That Super Blackhawk didn’t even have a budge in the barrel. I have intentionally blown a gun with double charges of powder but it took several rounds of double charges before the gun let go and sent to top strap and half the cylinder skyward.

Then there’s the theory that the cylinder isn’t lined up with the bore so the boolit hits the edge of the barrel and frame, but how would the firing pin ignite the primer if the cylinder wasn’t lined up?

Alan Jones’ favorite theory is a double boolit loaded into the case.

I came to Cast Boolit website with a puzzle, the fella’s here got me straightened out. I was getting 1/3 overcharges of powder in the .45 Colt with my progressive press. After decades of no problems with the same progressive press with the .44 Special the same progressive was overcharging the .45 Colt by one third. Ya, it was the wiggling of the handle of the progressive press that fecmech mentioned. I was working the powder bar and it was dumping just a little bit more powder as I worked the handle. See, the .45 case is just a little bit taller than the .44 Special and rim of the .45 Colt is smaller so the case is more prone to tilt and miss the mouth of the resizing die. Then I was aggravating the problem by neck-resizing the .45 Colt ’cause I was shootin’ them through the Colt which has chambers with just a little bit of an angle. The resizing die was backed out for neck resizing and the mouth of the case hit the mouth of the resizing die right where the powder bar was picking up more powder from the hopper. The .44 Special didn’t have this problem because I full length resize the .44 Special.

Dave Skovill told me he doesn’t use the progressives any more and doesn’t feature them in his magazine “Handloader.” He favors that Redding turret press.

Personally I bell and prime all my brass in one step. Then in a different session I charge, seat, and crimp with a progressive. That Redding turret press sure looks good to me tho.

[MtGun44]

Double charge MIGHt, but probably a case of double bullets. Double boolit has been
proven to blow up two .44-40s, probably the cause of the occasionally .38 Spl
blowup.

Note that they never seem to happen with 158 gr, always with lighter bullets/boolits
that can be double loaded into the case. Also, never happens with case filling
charges - no room for two boolits and much powder, so they boolits won't
seat and the round never gets completed. Always lighter boolits and very light
powder charges.

I have verified that two 147 gr WCs and 2.3 gr of BE will fit into a .38 Spl case if
you are not seating quite flush.

Twice the wt of lead and a TINY, TINY combustion chamber and the pressure is
astronomical. Probably don't need anything beyond a normal charge with
two boolits.

Bill

[Char-Gar]

The number of blown up firearms has increased with the popularity of progressive presses. I jumped on the progressive bandwagon, but sold it after I had an overcharge . I now use a Redding turret or single stage for all loading.
.

[btroj]

I can see how a double charge can easily happen. Two bullets in one case? That wpuld take a complete failure to pay attention. Even with a full wadcutter seated flush one should otice the second bullet isn't starting into the case properly.

I use a Dillon for loading handgun ammo. I pay attention to what I am doing and avoid any changes to rhythm or routine. When in doubt I throw rounds out. I just refuse to take chances.

[Fernando]

I'm new here but have a little bit of time on progressive shotshell machines[smilie=1:
When you set your powder drop you must test measure after the exact vibration pattern
used during normal cycling - if your getting inconsistent charge weights try a powder baffle
in the hopper first, second try different whack techniques like slapping the side or a little double
bump at the bottom and or top of the stroke.
Even nice round hard shot will bridge and if cadence is interrupted the next shell should always be
suspect.
I like watching progressive machines work but have only used single stage for brass stuff.
And hand dies the last decade or so.
Throwing powder charges that are consistent takes some practice.
Every powder measure is a little different.

I vote bridged powder.

[TheDoctor]

Had my first ever "oops" about a year ago. I can only speculate as to the exact cause. Was loading .40 on a Pro 1000, with an autodisk pro measure. Dropping Universal. Would do my priming by hand. Not sure if I had a powder bridge, or short stroked the press, not totally resetting the powder measure. Long story short, I had an obstructed bore incident, that luckily only damaged the barrel. Lesson learned on that, put a light on the press, and visually verify every round has powder. With the load I was using, a double charge would have been WAY obvious, so the only thing that could have happened is a no or low powder charge. ALWAYS check the bore in the event of a misfire.

[captaint]

This is why I ..... ah, I won't bore you guys..

[xs11jack]

I had a totally odd one just last week. Loaded 148 gn wadcutter over 3.3 of Red Dot. Shot 4 from a S&W 28. The fifth one didn't sound right so I tried to open the cylinder and couldn't. Boolit was stuck between cyl. and forcing cone. Push it back with a cleaning rod and opened the cylinder. Pulled the .38 case out of the cyl. and it was filled to the top with black crusty burned power. I don't know what in the world could have done that. Oh, the loads were done on a single stage press. When I fill the case with a powder charge, I do not set the case down, it immediately goes into the press for boolit seating.
Jack

[ROCKET]

I've had a couple of squibs in the past but was lucky to catch it on time. So, I decided to use a powder check die... You can easily have a slight over/under charge and sometimes not really visually see it even if you look down inside the case. It's an extra step but worth while for me.

[ell198679]

I loaded about 40 rounds of .38 special, I doubt any of them were double charged. But, I think I am going to double check em an use a kinetic bullet remover, I forgot to flare the brass anyways, so they need to be removed and relubed at least. And the brass flared so it does not shave off my boolit lead and lube.. From now on I think I am just going to load them one at a time and check the charge for peace of mind. A triple charge is even possible with .38 special brass. With my 8mm Mauser I am not worried at all since it is not as critical, and a double charge is ALOT more obvious, even if the case does not over flow. I won't need a red hat LOL it was just being in a hurry is all, and jumping into reloading I was excited about it. However, ive learned my lesson black powder brass. :roll: I believe I can safely reload now just going to double even triple check my .38 special rounds because of the triple/double charge problem. Anyways honestly I believe that the reason my gun blew on me, is because the charge was to light and the bullet got stuck, and or the same thing happened and I fired the next round and kabboom. It just takes one mistake to blow up your gun and possible your face hand etc.

[eljefe]

When I am using a single stage press, I do each
process in steps. I will resize and deprime all the cases
I am planning to load, then prime, then flare, etc.

When I get to the charging with powder stage, I like
to put the charged cases in a loading block and eyeball
them to make sure that they all have a similar amount
of powder. I use a powder measure, and weigh every 10th
charge. This gives me an additional level of confidence
that I will not have any over or undercharged cases.

[Texantothecore]

I teach my reloaders to either visually check each and every round for the correct amount of powder. They can also weigh them before bullet seating and identify any that look funky.

Intuition is important here. If a load makes you nervous, unload it and start again.

[Larry Gibson]

1) Fired a round with no powder, heard only a click. The bullet lodged in the forcing cone. Then fired the next round with powder and a bullet lodged in the barrel.

This does make sense I did have some rounds, which did fail to ignite with a primer strike. However, I find it strange that I forgot to put powder in all together.

That would answer the question.

Larry Gibson

[MtGun44]

Another way to accomplish this is to seat two boolits in the case. Double wt
and EXTREMELY small combustion chamber. This is physically possible (just barely)
with 148 WC in .38 Spl, easier in .357 Mag case.

I have discussed this with a major powder company and need to pursue having
them test some intentionally misloaded rounds to see what the pressure is.

Bill

[44Vaquero]

Why on earth would you be using 3.2 grains of W-231 with 110 gr jacketed bullet when Winchester own web site STARTS @ 4.6 gr and ends @ 5.5 gr? Even if you were to reduce Winchesters starting load by 10% it would be 4.14 gr! You are easily 30+% under the recomemded starting load, Why? Plain and simple 3.2 grains is marginal for pushing a 110 gr jacketed bullet, one shot obstructed the bore and the subsequent shot tore the gun apart.

Manuals are made and printed for a reason, stay in between the lines! There is no reason to try and reinvent the wheel. Please do some more reading and research before you hurt yourself or somebody else!

If it seems like I am being harsh, it's because I am! Reloading is serious business.

[ell198679]

Agreed, I had no understanding of reloading and was using a manual scale, which I haven't used since like middle school. I was really worried about over charging... Just was being dumb should of known undercharging is just as risky, perhaps even more so than a double charge.

[dkf]

Switching to a powder that fills the case over half way will help you see the powder level better and a double charge will overflow the case. It may not be the most economical but look at HS-6 or similar powder. At least until you get enough good trouble free rounds under your belt. Hope you have tested the scale you are using with check weights also.

[Outpost75]

This is the article on the history of Bullseye Blowups in the wadcutter load. Requires MULTIPLE charges and increased seating depth which causes powder compression beyond its bulk density, aka "Pilot Error"

740767407774078

[eljefe]

More likely, a squib load, precipitated by no powder in the case.

Cowboy action shooters routinely load below the book in an attempt
to reduce recoil. I seriously doubt that if indeed a bullet got stuck in
the bore that it was because you did not have a large enough charge.
The shot would be anemic, but the bullet should have exited.

[ell198679]

21,000 PSI is max PSI for .38 special normal seating, and a double charge will over take that.

[ell198679]

Possible, since I fired a few rounds with this low amount of powder and the bullets did exit. I seat my boolits slightly above the rim maybe like 1/16th of an inch. I am sure most of us have tried pushing a bullet through the barrel of a gun the resistance is not marginal, in fact even with substantial pressure the bullet cannot escape. Light charges likely blow up guns, because the bullet is resisting the pressure, and it is decentralizing the pressure, and you get your kabboom the pressure starts pushing more outwards and backwards then normal. Normally the pressure is likely centralized and directly behind the bullet and is not being pushed back by to much resistance. Makes sense... Theory though.:???:

[44Vaquero]

Eljefe, I am going to disagree with you on this one. A %30+ under charge could result in one shot sticking in the barrel and one shot not sticking. Copper jackets can very in size and elasticity as can the individual case neck tension and crimp. All of these possibilities happening at once is possible.

When I was very young and new to reloading I did a very similar thing with a jacketed bullet in a Webley the first 3 shots exited the barrel and I actually saw them impact the target(very marginal load)! The forth shot stopped a the end of the barrel with the nose sticking out!!!! It did not sound or feel any different than the 1st 3 shots, luckily I was shooting SA not DA and noticed the bullet sticking out of the barrel. Copper jackets offer a great deal of friction and with a marginal load the standard deviation from shot to shot could be the difference between exiting the barrel or not.

[ell198679]

Amen.

[Larry Gibson]

This is the article on the history of Bullseye Blowups in the wadcutter load. Requires MULTIPLE charges and increased seating depth which causes powder compression beyond its bulk density, aka "Pilot Error"

740767407774078

Would much appreciate it if you could email me a copy of that Bullseye article you posted?

PM me for my email, I couldn't PM you.

Thanks

Larry Gibson

[Outpost75]

Tap on the pictures, they will display full size so you can read them.

[Salmoneye]

1) Fired a round with no powder, heard only a click. The bullet lodged in the forcing cone. Then fired the next round with powder and a bullet lodged in the barrel.

This does make sense I did have some rounds, which did fail to ignite with a primer strike. However, I find it strange that I forgot to put powder in all together.

There's your answer...

[MtGun44]

"should of known undercharging is just as risky, perhaps even more so than a
double charge"

I do not think this comment is even remotely correct. As far as I know, with
most powders, especially fast pistol and shotgun powders, this has no basis in
fact. Many have created 'mounse fart' loads with 1 or 2 grains of fast pistol
powder in a large, bottleneck rifle case and had good, consistentmresults. There
is a risk of sticking a boolit with VERY light loads, but this is something entirely
different.

With ONE powder, H110/W296, if you go below recommended starting loads,
you can have poor pressure buildup and then LESS than normal pressures - but
I do not think that anyone claims that undercharged cases are likely to blow up.
I keep hearing this "detonation" theory bandied about but have never seen
any scientific basis.

The situation where an extremely slow powder can have poor ignition and the
primer pushes the bullet/boolit forward into the throat, where it slows down a
lot due to the pressure building too slowly, and this acts like a bore obstruction
- causing a very high pressure secondary pressure pulse situation has been
discussed and may be real.

Most likely is a significant reloading error, like no powder - then bore obstruction,
or double charge, or double boolit, or ultra deep seating.

Bill

[Wildcat66]

Had this happen once.
My son and I were target shooting with our handguns.
My son was shooting a S&W 686 and when he fired the shot didn't sound right.
He looked at me and immediately put the gun down.
Opened the cylinder and the bullet had gone just far enough into the barrel that the cylinder
was not restricted in movement.

I firmly believe that when one is shooting a firearm, reloads or factory, you need to be aware
and pay attention to what is happening.
Knowing what a "normal" shot feels and sounds like is most important.

My son was 13 years old at the time and had been experienced with firearms for about 2 years.
He knew immediately that something was wrong and stopped.
He is now 34.

Sorry for the rant, but safety is everything in my opinion.

Nick
West Virginia

[Larry Gibson]

"should of known undercharging is just as risky, perhaps even more so than a
double charge"

I do not think this comment is even remotely correct. As far as I know, with
most powders, especially fast pistol and shotgun powders, this has no basis in
fact. Many have created 'mounse fart' loads with 1 or 2 grains of fast pistol
powder in a large, bottleneck rifle case and had good, consistentmresults. There
is a risk of sticking a boolit with VERY light loads, but this is something entirely
different...............

Most likely is a significant reloading error, like no powder - then bore obstruction,
or double charge, or double boolit, or ultra deep seating.

Bill

I concur. with light target loads a stuck in the bore poses little problem of the gun blowing up as the psi's are too low, the low volume low psi is vented at the barrel/cylinder gap before the second bullet hits the stuck bullet. I spent a few years as an advanced LE firearms instructor back in the day when the .38 SPL was "the" gun to carry and the practice/qual ammo was 38 WCs. I couldn't tell you how many multiple bullets (even had all six once) stuck in a revolver barrel I've pushed out. Not a single one of those revolvers (Colt, S&W and Rugers) suffered any damage.

In this case the OP was using 110 gr jacketed. That bullet is going to stick in the barrel throat, probably far enough for the cylinder to turn, with a very mild load or from just the primer (a magnum one in the OP's case). Then with a normal or perhaps a double charge (the powder from the previous case?) in the next round the nose of that bullet hits the base of the stuck bullet and obdurates sealing the barrel/cylinder gap. Not hard to envision what happens next.......

Larry Gibson

BTW; back in the day when there was a dramatic increase in revolver blow ups with the 2.7 gr Bullseye/WC load almost all were traced to the use/misuse of the C&H inline progressive loader. It was very, very easy to not charge, double charge and even triple charge 38 SPLs with it. It was discontinued rather quickly.

[Outpost75]

..... with light target loads a stuck in the bore poses little problem of the gun blowing up as the psi's are too low, the low volume low psi is vented at the barrel/cylinder gap before the second bullet hits the stuck bullet..... I couldn't tell you how many multiple bullets (even had all six once) stuck in a revolver barrel I've pushed out. Not a single one of those revolvers (Colt, S&W and Rugers) suffered any damage.

In this case the OP was using 110 gr jacketed. That bullet is going to stick in the barrel throat, probably far enough for the cylinder to turn, with a very mild load or from just the primer (a magnum one in the OP's case). Then with a normal or perhaps a double charge (the powder from the previous case?) in the next round the nose of that bullet hits the base of the stuck bullet and obturates sealing the barrel/cylinder gap. Not hard to envision what happens next.......

BTW; back in the day when there was a dramatic increase in revolver blow ups with the 2.7 gr Bullseye/WC load almost all were traced to the use/misuse of the C&H inline progressive loader. It was very, very easy to not charge, double charge and even triple charge 38 SPLs with it. It was discontinued rather quickly.

Same could occur with the Camdex machine if the operator was trying to "push" production and was not paying proper attention.

Dating myself....

[alamogunr]

Several years ago a friend an I were plinking in his "back 40". I was shooting a Para Ordinance 1911 DAO using reloads. The charge was 7gr of AA#5. I guess I wasn't paying attention because in the middle of the magazine load, I had a soft recoil(I was wearing muffs). I manually retracted the slide and the empty case ejected. I might have fired the next shot if he hadn't stopped me. Sure enough, there was a bullet(jacketed) stuck about halfway down the barrel. While not a full bore load, that next shot could have done some damage.

I evaluated my loading procedure and determined that I had failed to charge a case. It was the only one since I pulled the remaining bullets and found all to be charged correctly. I changed my procedure at that point and haven't had a mishap since.

Sadly, I don't remember what I was doing wrong but now I check every loading block of powder charged cases with a light before seating boolets.

[fecmech]

BTW; back in the day when there was a dramatic increase in revolver blow ups with the 2.7 gr Bullseye/WC load almost all were traced to the use/misuse of the C&H inline progressive loader. It was very, very easy to not charge, double charge and even triple charge 38 SPLs with it. It was discontinued rather quickly.
Larry--I don't think the CH was a problem. Some outfit copied the CH machine and I think that one was the problem. I own two CH auto champs a Mark 3 and 5A. I don't know of any way you could inadvertently double charge a case. A friend blew up a K frame right next to me on the line and he was using one of the CH copies.

[ell198679]

"Most likely is a significant reloading error, like no powder - then bore obstruction,
or double charge, or double boolit, or ultra deep seating." A low powder charge can lead to a bore obstruction, I think this is likely what caused this failure. Then put another bullet down the pipe.

"Then with a normal or perhaps a double charge (the powder from the previous case?) in the next round the nose of that bullet hits the base of the stuck bullet and obdurates sealing the barrel/cylinder gap. Not hard to envision what happens next......." Possible, however I think I was having some issues with the primers not being detonated. Anyways the barrel failure was slightly ahead of the forcing cone. What you describe likely would result in failure at the cylinder and the frame of the revolver correct me if I am wrong. Perhaps, the magnum primer/light load feed the bullet deeper into the barrel..

[ell198679]

There's your answer...

The rounds which failed to ignite also did not cause the bullet to even leave the brass at least the ones I noticed.

[Salmoneye]

The rounds which failed to ignite also did not cause the bullet to even leave the brass at least the ones I noticed.

Then those primers did not pop off, and you have more issues than just neglecting to put powder in that round that stuck the bullet in your barrel for your kaboom...

[ell198679]

http://www.reloadammo.com/liteload.htm Light loads have been known to cause failures.

[Larry Gibson]

http://www.reloadammo.com/liteload.htm Light loads have been known to cause failures.

First thing to note in that article/thread is; "Here are several opinions.". The blow up of the Contender is a well known S.E.E. It has happened with other 45-70 Contenders using light loads of 2400 in the larger 45-70 case with magnum primers and 300 gr jacketed bullets. The commonality to the is; "Pointing the barrel straight down while releasing the hammer I turned to answer. I then raised my Contender and just knew that this time I was going to bust the pigeon. Pulling the trigger my Contender exploded." What happens is the small amount of powder is totally in front of case behind the bullet. The force of the primer pushes the bullet into the throat where it sticks and essentially becomes a bore obstruction before the 2400 begins to burn efficiently enough to move the bullet. The psi rises dramatically well above the structural strength of the brass cases or the firearm before the bullet can get moving again and something gives.....in this case the Contenders. A classic S.E.E.!

The "comment recently downloaded from CAS-City pages" is simply a regurgitation of the "detonation by wave" theory which has not been proven.

The "opinion" of Norman Johnson is quite incorrect;

"SEE is an unexplained pressure excursion which has often blown up guns. It is associated with markedly reduced loads of very slow powders.

(Note; this part of Johnson's opinion is correct.)Contrary to the ubiquitous old wives tale, detonation is NOT a consideration with fast powders such as Bullseye, no matter how light the charge is or how spacious the case.

The phenomena of Secondary Explosion Effect (SEE) is known to occur only with the slow powders at very low loading densities. Precious little is known about the mechanics of the phenomenon and it is not even known if the expression, Secondary Explosion Effect, is accurate. SEE, despite best efforts of the leading powder companies, cannot be reproduced in the lab, at least in the literature that I have been able to find. "

S.E.E. has, in fact, been reproduced "in the lab" and is now well documented. I have posted the Handloader several times that documents S.E.E. as produced in a lab. S.E.E. is also well documented with other "fast burning powders" on the slow end. Such powders as 296, H110, 4227, and 2400 plus others are in this category.

Mr. Sharps had a nagging thought of using a Dacron wad to hold the powder back and had he done that he may have run the risk of ringing the barrel but it would have prevented the S.E.E. A Dacron filler would have been the appropriate thing to use with the 2400 but he should have used the 3031 powder he first mentioned. In his conversation with JD Jones it was still thought to be a "detonation" which it wasn't.

The possibility of S.E.E. with the reduced loads used in reloading cast bullets is real. When one goes outside the norm of reliable, well tested data from manuals one always runs the risk. I do use powders and loads that are many times outside loading manual data. I'm not telling anyone not to. However, if one is going to do that one should not do it lightly and without some knowledge. Many of us have learned the hard way, though not as "hard" as Mr. Sharp or the OP of this thread, what works and what can lead to an increased possibility or even probability of an S.E.E.

Let us also keep in mind that with the 38 SPL using a fast burning powder with a low load density the possibility of a double or triple charge is also possible, especially with some progressive loaders or with inattentive loading practices. A short light jacketed bullet with no powder or a squib load that sticks in the throat of a revolver is a common occurrence. To follow that "shot" with another containing a normal load is not an S.E.E. but simply an operator error of some magnitude. That type of incident seems to be more prevalent that an S.E.E.

Larry Gibson

[Groo]

Groo here
Thanks for the post, I have been saying this [ in a different way] for some time now.
The primer develops pressure in the case , the powder needs this pressure to maintain a good burn , if the bullet moves before enough pressure is generated, the
pressure drops , slowing the powder burn and reduces the push on the bullet,which can stick in the barrel,or at the forcing cone.
The evidence will be found as yellow or unburned powder .
If the bullet leaves the barrel or is stuck in the barrel, the gas is vented ,at the muzzle or the bc gap.
But if the bullet stops across the bc gap ,it can plug the cylinder , then as the pressure rises because the bullet is not moving normally and making the space larger
behind it-the pressure can exceed the limits of the cylinder [ most damage is at the cylinder] only a small amount of powder would be required.
Our loading data is designed for a moving bullet not a plug.
It would be in fact a hang-fire,

[ell198679]

Either that or attach a flag to your hat so we won't get at the bench beside you :-(

Been reloading ammo now since this mishap almost two years. Not one issue, with blow ups thank god. However, I am always checking the bore of my guns for obstructions if the discharge didn't sound right. It is easy to reload, but also easy to mess up. This blow up was caused simply by a light load of less then 1.2 or 2 grains IE bore obstruction and firing another round. I dismantled these rounds, I didn't know what I was doing. I was so scared of an over charge that I ended up undercharging. It is very important to be very very careful. Anyways, any suspect ammo is run though my 12 gauge with an adapter if I am too lazy to dismantle.

[tek4260]

Why not simply stay away from all these loads that use a miniscule amount of powder? Figure out your desired velocity range and look for a powder that gives you that and is near 100% load density. In other words, a slower powder. Lot's of fine firearms have been destroyed by some idiot who insisted on using a few granules of fast powder. Of course he liked to brag about how smart he was and how much money he was saving.....

[flyingmonkey35]

I feel for you.

[BPCR Bill]

It's likely an overcharge of powder, something that is very easy to do with pistol cartridges. If for some reason you were distracted while charging the cases, put an extra charge in a case without realizing it, and then went on your happy way, that would do it certainly. It's happened to the best of us. Lesson learned and forge on.

[mozeppa]

I use a Dillon for loading handgun ammo. I pay attention to what I am doing and avoid any changes to rhythm or routine. When in doubt I throw rounds out. I just refuse to take chances.
ditto that.

i'm just about finished taking down 65,000 rounds of .40s&w &.45acp
because I didn't load them. i won't take a chance on a double load....(12,000 to go!)

i have 2 dillon 650's
neither has a priming station.

each caliber has 2 heads....1 for decap , size and bell.

the other head is set up permanently...#1 station has nothing in it.
a hornady powder measure in station #2.
powder check in station #3
reddings competition seater die in station #4
ad dillons taper crimp die in #5

also i use a small battery operated hand held pleasure-ing device (vibrator) taped to the powder hopper. helps getting a consistent throw each time.

[ole 5 hole group]

Been reloading ammo now since this mishap almost two years. Not one issue, with blow ups thank god. However, I am always checking the bore of my guns for obstructions if the discharge didn't sound right. It is easy to reload, but also easy to mess up. This blow up was caused simply by a light load of less then 1.2 or 2 grains IE bore obstruction and firing another round. I dismantled these rounds, I didn't know what I was doing. I was so scared of an over charge that I ended up undercharging. It is very important to be very very careful. Anyways, any suspect ammo is run though my 12 gauge with an adapter if I am too lazy to dismantle.

Sounds like your learning as you go - let's hope you have many more enjoyable reloading decades ahead.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

xs11jack, you mentioned the case filled with black crusty powder that just pushed the boolit partially into the forcing cone. I've seen a powder charge fill a case when it shouldn't only to find the case packed with tumbling media. I wonder if this has caused barrel obstructions and blown guns.

I've intentionally double loaded a couple cases with various fast burning powders in .45 Colt cases, duct taped the gun to the other side of a tree and pulled the trigger with a string and the Italian single action didn't blow until several tries.

I wonder if cases jammed with polishing compound might be responsible for more problems then we have previously considered.

[Gastero]

With a case like the .38 SPL , after loading the powder I always look inside with a flashlight. Sounds like it was a double or triple charge.

[w5pv]

Aftr one squib that I caught in time 50 years ago,I inspect each round for a charge when I take it out of the press(single stage)and then another time with a flash light before loading.Squibs scare me more than a double charge does.This is the way my feeble mind works.

[Dave C.]

I would bet money on a double charge. And I don't gamble.

[ell198679]

In the past two weeks of reloading, I have caught junk stuck in my brass in two instances. Obviously, this seems to be more of a problem then one might think. What I thought was a double charge was actually a brass case with some gunk in it. I inspect them before charging, but that one slipped by, and my dad lost my good flashlight :-( Another one, had what looked like a piece of paper that was on top of the powder. Indicating, it must of come of my shirt or something and landed in it..

[DukeInFlorida]

As an experienced NRA Reloading Instructor, a few things come to mind:
1) The fact that this is the second thread with this same issues suggests to me that you are woefully inexperienced in reloading. I would STOP reloading, and go back, and re-read at least two books on the subject. Seek out a formal reloading class if one is available to you in your area. You are extremely lucky to not get seriously injured, and even luckier to have the manufacturer replace your gun, considering your circumstances.
2) There are several LAZY bad habits that will get you into load trouble.......
a) Please depend on ONLY published load data, scientifically developed by the powder manufacturer or bullet manufacturer. DO NOT depend on someone's post in any forum, however well intended the posted information might have been presented. It only takes a tap of the finger to make 3.2 grains of something become 4.3 grains of something else, and BOOM goes your gun. Use reliable information from a reliable source. If in doubt, call the manufacturer. They will give you good load data. I like to refer to 2 or more load data books when researching a new load. Sometimes, there are differences for the same powder, same bullet. Use the more prudent data. And, always make sure your load data books are up to date. Do NOT use old load data books.
b) Do NOT go directly from a powder dispenser to a bullet seater! Go from a powder dispenser to a reloading tray, and allow the filled brass to sit in nice neat rows until you are ready to seat bullets. The human eye can detect about .002" of variation in most surfaces. Look carefully up and down all the rows and columns, and make sure all have powder, and all have the same amount of powder.
c) Check the weight (using a proper reloading scale) of the first ten loads you dispense before placing them in the loading block (per above). You should be able to hit +/- .1 grain on the weight. If you can't hit that tight variation, then spend some time working at it until you can control your powder dispensing to +/- .1 grain! When I do my reloading classes, the MOST TIME is spent on getting the powder dispensing perfect. It's the biggest part of keeping you and your gun safe.
d) After dispensing the first ten powder drops, be sure to check every 5th one in the scale. If you start finding some that are off by more than +/-.1 grain, something is out of control. Stop, evaluate, and fix the problem. Dump all of the unknown ones back to the previous known good one. After a few cycles of every 5th one, you can move to every 10th one, and then to every 20th one, etc. Always check the final one. Stop, evaluate and fix the problem if you see more variation that +/- .1 grain any where along the way.
3) Your comment about having to go back and bell the case mouths of the brass also tells me that you don't have a solid foundation in the process. Re-read the reloading books for how to properly set the bell mouthing of the pistol cases.
4) Equally important is the CRIMPING of the pistol rounds, after bullet seating. Read up on all of this stuff. You have a lot to lose if you continue making basic mistakes.
5) Inspecting brass is a process that happens every time you touch each piece. Nothing should go into your resizing die until it's properly cleaned/polished. If you aren't cleaning/polishing your brass before reloading, you are risking several of the mistakes you refer to with regard to junk in the cases. You also risk permanently RUINING your die set due to scratches from sand/dirt. Once a set is ruined, it's not fixable.
6) Keep your reloading area neat, tidy, and clean of debris. Reloading is almost rocket science. A serious mess while reloading will mess up your day at the range.

My reloading class is a full 9 hour day. In that time, I cover pistol and rifle reloading. Most students wonder why it would take that long to do a class. At the end of the day, they are always amazed at how much is involved. And, it's ALL important!

Reloading dangerously isn't a way to save money. Reloading dangerously will cost you a lot more than any factory ammunition. If you don't have the aptitude to reload properly, then please BUY factory ammo. If you don't have the patience or the focus and concentration to reload, then buy factory ammunition.

We do NOT want your next thread to be pictures of missing and bloody fingers, and destroyed guns.

Anyone who's near enough to the Daytona area, and wants to come and take my class, please let me know. This is NOT an advertisement for my classes. Merely the reflections of a VERY experienced reloader, who has dealt with a large number of inexperienced reloaders. And, who knows the mistakes they can make.

Be safe

[alamogunr]

Thanks for that post, Duke. While most of what you posted is part of my routine, there are a couple of things that your emphasized that I find I'm not real consistent on. I've printed it and will keep it handy.

[Char-Gar]

Folks think they can buy some reloading equipment check in on a few internet sights and U-Tube videos and they are now reloaders. Turning loose hot gases contained in a small brass jug close to your face is an inherently dangerous activity, and one that can get you killed or maimed. To many folks take it far to lightly. I liken it to learning to sky dive on the internet. Now a very wise idea at all.

I have been a member of this site and several others since the internet was born and all to often it is the blind leading the blind. Folks seem to be offended when experienced reloaders tell them to read a book or two and then come back with questions. I do that often, not because I don't want to answer questions, but because a reliable published source will contain reliable and safe information. I have never given any unsafe or ill founded reloading counsel, but often it gets lost if the flood of other posts, some of which are rock solid, and some of which are pure nonsense, based on nothing but hearsay, guess work and conjecture.

This is a long way around to say Amen to Duke in Florida's posts above.

[ell198679]

Most of those steps I follow. My rounds fire of consistently for the most part. The only step I do not do with pistol rounds is crimping. Yes I did forget to bell the mouths of pistol brass before. I always inspect all my rounds and charges before seating. Yes I am inexperienced, and would still benefit with a good read through an entire reloading book. The only problem I see with books, is that sometimes their reloading data, charges etc. is incomplete. You make a good point about the powder dispensing. Sometimes, I have noticed my Lee perfect powder dispenser throwing powder on the upstroke. It is consistent though +or- .1 grains. Granted it was probably never enough powder to blow up anything maybe a few flakes, but something to watch out for.

[Mohillbilly]

I bulged a barrel in a New model Ruger Blackhawk .45 Colt . I use a progressive 550b . I was making loads for a league night , and was making a set up short cut . i made a dummy with out powder to the right seating depth , I neglected to use a spent primer . That setup seating round got mixed with the loaded rounds . At the range my wife a new shooter called to me that one of the rounds weren't right . I did a quick check , an seeing nothing , reloaded and fired a round . I heard the shot strike but missed the target , the next 2 - 3 rounds missed as well I ended up adjusting the sight and got it back on target . At home cleaning the barrel I found a bulge behind the front sight , 3 weeks and a hundred twenty bucks later all was well again . I no longer make dummy loads with live primers. I will not use a powder combination that does not have at least 51% powder density . If I make a mistake and produce a double charge it runs over and generally makes a mess giving me time to reflect on the gun , eyes , fingers , or bystanders I may have destroyed .

[Char-Gar]

Most of those steps I follow. My rounds fire of consistently for the most part. The only step I do not do with pistol rounds is crimping. Yes I did forget to bell the mouths of pistol brass before. I always inspect all my rounds and charges before seating. Yes I am inexperienced, and would still benefit with a good read through an entire reloading book. The only problem I see with books, is that sometimes their reloading data, charges etc. is incomplete. You make a good point about the powder dispensing. Sometimes, I have noticed my Lee perfect powder dispenser throwing powder on the upstroke. It is consistent though +or- .1 grains. Granted it was probably never enough powder to blow up anything maybe a few flakes, but something to watch out for.

I don't think loading books are incomplete. I think many reloaders expect books to include loads for every specific bullet, which of course they do not. However a 155 grain +- cast bullet, or whatever weight you want, will take the same starting loads regardless of make or design. Top end loads should always be worked up in the individual firearms due to all the variations in the firearm, case, primer, powder and bullet.

[ell198679]

Yes I know you can find a reloading book. Find the loads for a cast boolit of similar weight. Then, simply start at the minimum load and work your way up. Let me put it differently, their incomplete regarding the situation we are now in 2012-2014 with pistol powder/components etc. Where you might have to use a marginal powder to reload that might not be best suited for that bullet.

[tazman]

Yes I know you can find a reloading book. Find the loads for a cast boolit of similar weight. Then, simply start at the minimum load and work your way up. Let me put it differently, their incomplete regarding the situation we are now in 2012-2014 with pistol powder/components etc. Where you might have to use a marginal powder to reload that might not be best suited for that bullet.

I agree with that statement.
If you only used the powders listed in the book, you would not be loading much ammo in my area in the past couple of years. I have had to use different primers and different powders, many of which are not listed in the books. These loadings are steadily making their way into the literature or on the manufacturer's data sites in the last few months. Still, often the only powder that was available didn't have load data readily available unless you just happened to have that one manual that listed it. My current favorite powder for my 9mm is still unlisted for pistol use on any site or in any manual I have seen or heard about.
Now it seems things are beginning to loosen up slightly. I can often find at least some small amounts of powder that I have used in the past or that data is readily available for. Perhaps things are beginning to get better.

[Alexn20]

i use a small battery operated hand held pleasure-ing device (vibrator) taped to the powder hopper. helps getting a consistent throw each time.

:shock:
Huh Whaaaaat? I have heard of many uses but this one is new. Haha!!




Also, I would just like to say that balance scales are just as reliable as digital (If not MORE reliable). One problem people have to look out for are scales measuring in GRAMS rather than GRAINS. Converting will only introduce an additional point of failure. Make sure you have the right equipment for the job.

[Blackwater]

These incidents are always a mystery. They're a mystery because when the gun gets blown up, tests can't be repeated because the gun IS blown up. Therefore, all one can do is backtrack, and there's where memory so often fails us. I know, because it happened to ME many years ago. Perhaps the story will help you retrace and find the cause. Here's the story:

Back when I was still 10 ft. tall, bulletproof and immortal, I came home from some training that went long one Friday. I was 200+ miles from home and didn't get to leave to go home until nearly 7:00 pm. Don't like to rush on the road, so took my time and went the back roads, mostly. Got home, unloaded, and grabbed a bit to eat, then sat down to "puddle out" a bit, and realized Deer season was opening the next Saturday. I'd been wanting to take one with my Ruger .44, and had a big week scheduled for the coming week, so determined that, being 10 ft. tall, bullet proof and immortal, I could load up some bullets to shoot the next day to get my hand back in with it. It was very close to 1:00 am when I started. I had the bullets cast up, and cases primed and expanced, so reached for my can of 2400 - my usual load in the gun. 10 ft. tall, bullet proof and immortal or no, I discovered I'd forgotten to pick up another can of 2400, because I only had less than 50 rounds worth or so left in the can. Mentally kicking myself, I looked around for another suitable powder. All I could come up with was a can of 231, which I'd been wanting to try for a mid-range type load anyway, so I looked up some data and determined that 10.5 and 11.5 gr. would be apt trial charges of the 231, and loaded up 350 rds. using these 2 charges, separating them by charge wt., of course. I then poured my powder back in the can, and went to bed. It was now after 3:00 am. Got up the next morning (late, of course) and went out and shot the loads up. They did pretty well, but not fantastic, but I shot enough to get my consistency back again, and that was my highest motivation at that time, so was fairly satisfied. Later in the week, I found time to load up 100 rds. of 22 gr. of 2400 under the Win. 240 JHP's I had. This was to have been my "deer load."

Went out on (IIRC) a Thursday to see what my efforts had wrought, and confirm my sights, and at the fist shot, a buddy had my young son on his shoulders so he could watch bullet impact. I was shooting over some pillows over the roof of my car that day - a very improvised rest but one that should have served me well, time being the big limiting factor it was at the time. With my young son directly behind me, I let off the first round VERY carefully, and "BOOM!" The gun kicked back very much more than I was used to. The sound of the shot sounded a bit louder, and a bit "hollow" as well, all of which caused me to cease any attempt to fire another, of course, and I eased the gun back and held it at belt level, looking at the right side of it. Something struck me as being "not right," but I didn't at first know what it was. I turned it over to look at the other side, and nearly fainted!!! No kidding. I've never been much of a shy shrinking violet, but what I saw just nearly floored me, literally! The outer part of the cylinder that had been under the hammer was gone, along with part of the ctg. case that had fired, and that part was literally brazed to what was left of that cylinder. The adjoining cylinder on the left side was also gone, and the top strap was bulged slightly, but noticeably. Then I saw a crack at the rear of the top strap on the left side right where the corner of the rear sight recess is - the weakest point of the gun on the top strap area. The crack turned out to be 2/3 of the way across, but miraculously, somehow held by that last 1/3. The bottom strap, just above the trigger guard, was also bulged outward very slightly, but this was barely noticeable unless you looked close. I instantly recognized that, however unlikely I thought it was, I'd just blown up a fine gun, and that both I and maybe my friend and my young son were lucky Bill Ruger had designed the SuperB so heartily.

This started a several day reconsideration of what had HAD to have happened. I knew darn well it was MY fault. It HAD to be. Nothing was wrong with the powder, primers, bullets, and there was no obstruction in the barrel, because I'd run a brush through it prior to shooting to wipe out the lube from the cast bullets I'd shot previously in it. I took it to the gun shop run by a good friend and very competent professionally trained gunsmith, so everybody, he, I and all my shooting buddies could get in on the mystery and search for the cause.

IIRC, it took about 3 days for the reason to finally seep through my thick and disbelieving skull. I retraced everything quite a few times, and simply was stumped. Then, at long last, I remembered the time BEFORE when I'd loaded the 231 loads, and my can of 2400 was nearly empty. "Hmmmmm," I finally thought. "You don't reckon ....." I finally went back to my bench, and got my can of 2400. Took it back to the den/kitchen area where big fluorescent lights and sunshine coming through the back door and kitchen window all gave me the best and brightest possible light with which to do my inspection. I poured a handful of the contents into a nice, white flat soup bowl. I poked the contents around with my finger. It didn't look quite like I was used to seeing 2400 look like. At this time, the story started to gradually, and reluctantly I might add, seep into my consciousness. I went to a buddy's house with a sample of my "2400" in a pill bottle, just to make sure, and he poured a bit out onto a saucer, and I poured what I'd brought from my 2400 can, and .... yep - you guessed it! It was CLEARLY NOT THE SAME powder! It now occurred to me what had happened to cause the blowup. I'd done everything just fine up and until I was finished loading the cast loads the previous Saturday. What happened to cause the blowup was, due primarily to the late hour and my fatigue, I'm sure, I'd taken the powder measure and emptied it (with 231) into my can of 2400, shearly from force of habit, I'm sure. Thereby, I set myself up for the NEXT loading session to throw almost EXACTLY a double charge of 231, which I THOUGHT was 2400.

The hardest part of all this was going to my buddies at the gunshop and 'fessing up. Charlie, the proprietor, said he'd talked to Ruger about the incident, and they said they'd give me a new gun to replace mine for jobber's cost, which was a big savings over buying another one at retail. Knowing Bill Ruger and his design demands and expertise had probably saved my life, I humbly accepted the offer, knowing that because they didn't know me and feared a lawsuit had to be the reason for their generosity. They had nothing to fear from me, though. I'm just not the type of guy to do that when I knew dang well it was MY fault and they'd done nothing but designed a supremely fine gun that probably saved my life, or at least significant portions of my limbs.

I'd reloaded an awful LOT of ammo back then, most of it with cast so I COULD afford to do that much shooting. I confess, I'd grown a little "cocky" about my reloading prowess. I'd been reading and learning all I could since before I was 12 years old, and knew so much data by heart that I could quote it on demand, or expound pretty ably on nearly every facet of loading and shooting, ballistics, etc. NONE of that kept me from being human, though, and thus, subject to all manner of foibles and errors. It only takes ONE to produce disastrous results, and despite our penchant for thinking otherwise, we're all capable of many errors, and since it only takes a single one, we're ALL capable of blowing a gun up, even if we resist admitting it. Rest assured, I don't need any more lessons in my fallibility, or humility either, and nowadays, KNOWING THAT, I am about as anal retentive about my loading proceedures - and I'm talking about EVERY SINGLE PHASE of it - as it's humanly possible for a man to be. I don't make a big deal out of it, but the things that go though my mind, double and triple checking myself, DO make me more determined than anyone else I know to never have that happen again. I know my powders by appearance, and if appearances are similar, I WILL go get a good magnifying glass and check them out. When a can of powder gets low and needs to be restocked, I take it OUTSIDE the loading room ..... just to make SURE if I ever have another "accident," it's a different one than the one I've already made.

It's a lot like the story of the cat who once sat on a hot stove lid, and now won't sit on a cold one, either, except that I DO at least continue my reloading - just with a renewed and supremely appreciative knowledge of the value of care in each step we go through. Before I blew up the SuperB, you couldn't have convinced me that I was capable of doing that. But I WAS, so if you don't think you're capable of it, so be it, but wisdom and experience, and a knowledge of and appreciation of human foibles compels me to warn you that you just COULD be wrong. No disdain intended. Just the simple Gospel.

Hope this lil' event helps lead you to understanding what happened. There are always multiple possibilities. You just have to figure out which it was that caused the blowup, or you'll always wonder, and that sort of thing in the back of a man's mind can and WILL affect his shooting, and too often, keep him TOO timid in his loading. The ironic part is it's usually (not always but usually) the "light" loads that blow up guns, rather than the heavy ones. I think that too is due to our human foibles, but each of us has to deal with that question on his own terms, or potentially suffer the consequences.

Another observation I have about shooting is that experience has also shown me that one's knowledge of proceedures has little to do with WHO has these and other types of accidents. The more we shoot, the more opportunity for Murphy's Law or whatever you wish to call it, has to invade our secure little worlds and bit us in the butt, sometimes really HARD. So, if you're perfect, don't change a thing, but if you're human, never forget - not EVER - that we CAN make very simple mistakes that CAN on occasion cost us big. Sometimes, humility goes a very long, long way. That's my story, anyway, and I don't tell it for the pleasure of it - just in hopes it helps someone avoid something similar ... or worse.

[35remington]

Blackwater, nothing like coming clean about one's past history to give true perspective.

However, I have no doubt there are ten footers that stay ten footers mentally even after they screw up, and these types blame unlikely events like "fast powder detonation" to keep their mental 10 foot status.

Most would call such an event a learning experience. Not the "perpetual ten footers." They need an extremely implausible event to blame it on. Thus "fast powder detonation" as a theory is born.

[paul h]

I learned my lesson about firearms and fatigue many years ago, also why firearm safety has to be applied every time you handle every firearm.

To make a long story short, at the end of a long tiring week I wanted to get my mind off of work by tinkering on my sbh and giving it a trigger job. There was nothing wrong with the trigger job, but after loading the gun and locking it in the safe (something I no longer do) I decided I just had to try out my new trigger job by dry firing the gun again.

Yes, great was my surprise when the what should have been a click was a bang, and I was staring at a 44 caliber hole in a wall. Fortunately the mid range load ended up in the electrical panel and other than the impact knocking several breakers off and putting a dent in the front of the panel, nothing that couldn't be fixed with a hammer and some drywall patch.

[ell198679]

I went shooting today with my reloads no issues, other then a few jams on my 9mm. Revolver shoot great with my 358-105-swc. Not so great, with the 124 gr round nose designed for 9mm go figure. Anyways, I always keep the bottle that went into the hopper behind the hopper. I try to always empty it out if possible at the end of each reloading session and set back to zero, to avoid any mistakes. It truly is like skydiving, missing fingers do not go back on well yikes... yes it is serious.

[Bullwolf]

also i use a small battery operated hand held pleasure-ing device (vibrator) taped to the powder hopper. helps getting a consistent throw each time.

I saw this one before on another forum. At least it's Dillon blue?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=123457&d=1417495883

Wonder if I could find a dark green one to work with my RCBS Uniflow measure? Or maybe I'll just use my Charge Master instead.

I think I would have disassembled the marital aid, removing the internal mechanism to use as a powder measure settling device, in case one of my shooting buddies ever sees my reloading set up.

It could also cause an interesting (or embarrassing) conversation with the wife or one of her friends. Got to give the guy points for an ingenious solution though.

Definitely a good example of Redneck engineering at its finest!


- Bullwolf

[paul h]

While I can understand removing the ah um working parts to prevent humiliation, probably not a good idea to be pouring powder around an electrical motor that is um, uh un-protected.

I can just hear trying to explain to the firemen who arrive at your burning house how you started the fire by getting gunpowder into a sex toy :O

[44man]

Stuck boolit for sure and it CAN blow the cylinder. It is also possible the charge did not ignite and the mag primer pushed all into the barrel.
Friend did it with his Ruger .41. He was loading one round at a time and his son interrupted him so he forgot powder and seated a boolit. He shot one behind it and swelled the cylinder, top strap, bent the pin down. It did not split. Dang strong gun!
Took a while to get him using a block so he can look in each case.
Ruger replaced the gun at cost.

[rintinglen]

There is a tendency to see one of these disasters and automatically presume that the "Noob" reloader didn't know what he was doing. Yet in my experience, this is more likely to happen to an experienced reloader than to the rookie. I have seen or spoken to three shooters who have had blowups.

One was a relative newcomer who blamed his broken SBH on the fact that he'd left his reading glasses in the house and had grabbed the wrong can by mistake, inadvertently putting in Bullseye instead of Herco. He'd then compounded the problem by keeping firing even though the rounds "didn't feel right." The amazingly strong Ruger withstood several cylinders full before letting go, fracturing the cylinder.

The second was the result of inattention. A very experienced reloader blew up a nice Winchester High Wall by double charging a 32-40 case with h-240. He was in a hurry, and momentarily was distracted by a delivery man at the garage door and put a charged case back down in the "empty" case block. (He was a proponent of using two loading blocks and transferring the filled case to a second loading block.) He then proceeded to finish charging the cases, gave them a cursory glance, seated the boolits and hurried out to the range. 19 shots in, there was a very loud boom. His Shooting Glasses saved his eyes, but he had lacerations to his face and left arm. The gun was utterly destroyed. The only salvageable parts were the front sight, a few screws, and the butt plate.

The third instance occurred when a novice shooter pulled the trigger on a 38, got no bang, and then pulled the trigger again. The reloader was the owner of the gun and had brought along a young relative to introduce to the shooting sport. The first shot, lacking powder drove the round nose boolit into the forcing cone just far enough to allow the cylinder to rotate, bringing up the next round, which had a powder charge. It went "KABOOM" and resulted in a Taurus that closely resembled the Australian S&W blowup that Norbrat posted. The author of those rounds claimed he had been reloading for "20 years" and had never had a problem before.

This brings up my own wake up call. In the late 90's I had standardized on powders. IMR 4350-30-06? Check. H-110-357 and 44 Magnum, check. WW-231, 38, 9mm, 45 ACP, Check. Unique, 44 Special and 45 Colt, check. Each powder container not only was a different color, but they were physically different. The 4350 was in a metal rectangular can, the Unique in a card board Tube, The WW-231 in an squared off plastic bottle and the H-110 was in a round plastic bottle. Even in the dark I should be able to tell one from the other. All was right with the world-until.

A friend of mine was moving back east and couldn't take his powder with him. He gave me a half used can of unique and a brand new bottle of HP-38. The Unique was welcome, but I had not used HP-38, and in those days it was not the same as WW-231, despite assertions occasionally made to the contrary. Still a gift horse in the mouth and all that, I tucked it away on the powder shelf as a "just in case" back up and more or less forgot about it. Well deer season was coming up, so I decided I needed to load up some .357 loads for my Rossi Carbine. I re-adjusted my Dillon 450b to load the longer 357 cases, grabbed the round, black plastic bottle, and filled the powder hopper. I then proceeded to load up 175 rounds of RCBS 38-162 SWC GC BOOLITS over 15.7 grains of H-110.

Well, I ran out of cases, and was pouring the powder back in the bottle when I discovered my mistake. Wrong, round, Plastic Bottle! Yikes! I had just loaded 175 more than double charges. Luckily for me, I caught the error before I tried to shoot one of those wannabee grenades. Two and a half hours of pulling bullets with a Quinetics bullet puller served as a reminder to check and double check. Short of not doing it all, you can't be too careful when reloading. Wrong powder, wrong amount, wrong bullet, wrong seating depth--any of these can get you in trouble. And experience is no absolute safe guard. Eyes and or mind not on task: a recipe for disaster. Good habits help, but you have to treat it like you would if you were sky diving. It must be done right every time.

[waltherboy4040]

Electric toothbrush works fine to.

[ridurall]

Back in 1979 I went to a Universal progressive loader. It was a fast reloader but hard to change calibers and I ended up only using it for .38, .357 and .45 ACP. I switched back to a Lyman Turret press and the old Rock Chucker several years ago because I just didn't like the lack of quality that I would end up with on the Universal machine. I much prefer cleaning out primer pockets and trimming the cases to the proper length every time I reload. I also like to charge each case by hand and then look over the whole block of cases before I install the bullets. With all that said I never went with Bullseye or other fast burning powders because of the chance of double charges. I did burn a lot of 296 in the 1980s when I was loading it in my .357 for NRA Silhouette shooting. I was using a 168 gr Ray Thompson Designed SWC with gas check and it took me all the way to the Nationals. With all my loading now I use the Lyman 1200 electronic powder measure and still load around 50 or less at a time where I can take a flashlight to check the powder level. I much prefer HS-6 powder to the old 296 or H110 for the cleanness and feel of recoil especially on the 44 Magnum. I guess what I'm getting down to the older ways of loading are still useful for producing quality ammo and having that extra step of quality control is a great way to prevent accidents. The one big change I have made in the past few years is going to all magnum primers. I adjust the starting load to account for that but when I started stocking up on powder, bullets and primers after Obama was "elected" I decided that switching types of primers down to 5 was a better way to go. Be safe folks

[ridurall]

I would like to ad to DukeinFlorida's post about forum or web site loads. I was checking out loads for my .243 WSSM the other day and I forget which web site it was on but there were some loads that were pure BS. They quoted loads that would have been way over pressure and impossible velocities like 3950 FPS for a 95 or 100 grain bullet. I should have pushed the issue and notified the owner of the web site but I was on my phone which was limited. Stick with quality published information.

[Char-Gar]

For what is is worth, I don't believe these events are mysterious in the least. There is a finite number of causes which can be counted on the fingers of one hand. It is a matter of reviewing your loading habits to narrow that number down to the culprit.

[44man]

Worst thing I ever did was load some .44's with 296. Had a bunch left in the measure. Had a bottle clearly marked 296 on the bench, I poured the powder in and you guessed it, it was the empty bottle I used for a backy spit bottle!
I changed to an empty 4831 bottle that I don't use anymore. Hard to hide my chew from the wife and she pays no attention to a powder jug.
At least I read the label!

[paul h]

I try and keep things simple by keeping my powder on a shelf a bit away from the press, only taking down one jug at a time, and when I'm done using that powder emptying the powder thrower directly to the jug and returning it to the shelf.

The older I get, the simpler I need to keep things.

[Pinsnscrews]

This does make sense I did have some rounds, which did fail to ignite with a primer strike. However, I find it strange that I forgot to put powder in all together.

it is just as easy to miss a cartridge as it is to double load the cartridge. You may have also double loaded a cartridge and missed the next in line thinking you had just loaded it when you were adding the second load to the prior cartridge. I changed my loading sequence to moving the freshly powdered cartridge to another location just to avoid this situation.

[Pinsnscrews]

:shock:
Huh Whaaaaat? I have heard of many uses but this one is new. Haha!!




Also, I would just like to say that balance scales are just as reliable as digital (If not MORE reliable). One problem people have to look out for are scales measuring in GRAMS rather than GRAINS. Converting will only introduce an additional point of failure. Make sure you have the right equipment for the job.

Today's smart phones and tablets make great magnifying devices for the pointer, making it easier to read when it is perectly lined up. The camera on my iphone is at just the right level to set it on it's side and get a clear magnified view.

[Geezer in NH]

I will bet on a double load, Yes excuses, excuses, excuses, excuses, it can't be!!!!!

[ell198679]

Perhaps, anyways no problems now. :-) Definitely, learned my lesson early on. Nothing worse then firing a shoot, then looking at your revolver, missing a barrel, and a part of the frame. I never even found the barrel and I looked for it a lot it must of flown far so maybe it was a double charge.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

American Handgunner magazine had a picture of a revolver barrel cut in half the long way to show seven (7) boolits stuck in the barrel. That's right, seven. The shooter had one stuck in the barrel and shot again, and again, and again and when he went empty he reloaded and shot again. All seven boolits stuck in the barrel.

[ell198679]

Maybe, you can get away with even shooting a boolit down your, revolver then another one then. Apparently, even seven rounds. Hmmm might have to think twice, that just because a round went off, and my gun didn't blow up. That that means their was no obstruction. Yes I know the worst way to check.[smilie=w::violin:

[Geezer in NH]

I saw this one before on another forum. At least it's Dillon blue?
- Bullwolf Fusion paint it what ever color you want but get a new one not a friends IMHO