Loading homemade slugs

[Chicken Thief]

Had some ramblings with Cap'n Morgan and got this http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Blandet/Smilere/Brainfart.gif

A drilling fixture for the wad and the ball
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Mossberg/R0011201_zpsd9e3a5f1.jpg
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Mossberg/R0011202_zps9cc79d91.jpg
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Mossberg/R0011203_zps17409023.jpg
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Mossberg/R0011205_zps5a88c2f3.jpg

Poor mans "Brenneche"

Soft .735" ball and whatewer wad you fancy.

In hindsight i could have saved the time by not making the fixture for teh ball, the one for the wad do just fine.

[Chicken Thief]

The possibilities are endless

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Mossberg/R0011207_zps498c242c.jpg

[longbow]

I tried using screwed on wads with balls and also hot melt glue cast into a form them paper patched to keep the glue off the bore. They sort of worked and are similar to BPI AQ slugs which shot really well for me.

Where I ran into a problem was with the round surface of the ball. The wads tend to form around it and distort. Possibly a really dense felt under the ball would help or something very hard like a hard tough plastic. AQ's look like round balls but have a flat base where the wad contacts.

Basically it is the same problem as with wads pushing into hollow base slug cavities. Those wads are under huge forces and will deform at any opportunity.

I have gone to a Brenneke style flat base slug for current testing. The flat base solves a lot of the problem.

For a simple wad you might try hot melt glue pumped into a simple form ~ I made mine from CPVC couplings bores to the same size as the slug then wipe with grease or other release agent put in the slug and pump in glue. I use a screw in the base of flat based slugs so make sure the "wad" stays attached. With hollow base slugs just fill the cavity and then into the form. There is enough glue surface to hold.

That is what I found anyway.

Good luck and keep us posted.

Longbow

PS: I should add that when I used attached wads with 0.735" RB I got noticeably increased recoil and sticky extraction with a load that shot fine with just the RB and should not have been near max even if considering the weight of the added wad. I think bore friction was the culprit. Best to start out with an extra light load then work up.

[Chicken Thief]

Funny thing is that i use styrofoam as a wad in my full power slugs.
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Mossberg/R0010847.jpg

And they look almost prestine and reuseable after firing. But when i compress them with my fingers they stay flattened, go figure.

PS. Maybe they act non Newtonian? I.e. like quicksand and custard.

[45 2.1]

OK... that all looks good. Now, are you going to tell us how it performs?

[Chicken Thief]

Test shooting sunday!

Will have carpal tunnel surgery on the right front paw thursday, but im south paw so who cares :-)

I only have a rifled barrel (wont use for this) and a slug barrel (so no choke), but 45m~50yds shots galore.

[littlejack]

Chicken Thief:
I had that carpal tunnel done in 2001 or 02, don't remember which. I had both hands done (not at the same time) Lord nooo!
Take care of them, and do what the doc says to do. They will last you till you check out.
All the best for your surgery.
Jack

[Chicken Thief]

Had a trigger middle finger done 5 weeks ago (left front paw). No more than 2 lbs of load for the first 2 weeks then use as it will handle (docs orders). And it is still good at saying no to stoopid loads/uses ;-)

[littlejack]

Yes sir. They will let you know.

[longbow]

Well, that's different! I had no photos showing up until now. Kinda wondered.

I have no idea about the styrofoam! I can't believe it survives. Maybe styrofoam and cockroaches will be left after we are all gone! At least the cockroaches will have styrofoam beer coolers!

I hope those screwed on wads work better for you than they did for me. I haven't tried the foamy types but have used card, cushion legs, hot melt glue, copper tube and a few other things and so far the only success I have had is with stiff hard materials. Anything flexy has been a failure.

I will be interested in your field reports.

What load do you use behind that big full bore slug in post #4? I remember you posting photos of that monster before! What does it weigh?

Longbow

[Chicken Thief]

690gr and and i'm still developing loads.
I have a "slow" good one at @1300fps using 70gr of Vv N105 (2400'ish).

Eksperimenting with Vv N133 (IMR3031'ish) between 120 and 140 grains. Hoping to approach 1850-2200fps.
No need for big wads there!
120gr on top
130gr in the middle
140gr at the bottom
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Mossberg/R0011218_zps76dad0be.jpg

120gr = @17900psi~1235bar for 1800fps~550m/s and 4870flbs~6700j
130gr = @22500psi~1550bar for 1960fps~600m/s and 5890flbs~7980j
140gr = @28300psi~1950bar for 2120fps~645m/s and 6900flbs~9350j
The last one is going to be a snot kicker in a 3.7kg~8lbs rifle :)
Recoil energy @ 112flbs

Before anybody get a fit over the pressures i list, it is a Maverick/Mossberg pump with a frigging big locking lug directly in the barrel, not a break action shotgun! I do indeed look for telltale signs of pressure at every shot. Shotshell hulls are wery good at this due to the thin design of the bottom metal and plastic innards. And i do all my own stunts.
Dont whine go sue someone who cares (enough rant).
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Mossberg/R0011003.jpg
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Mossberg/R0011005.jpg

[longbow]

Have you got pressure testing equipment or did you get someone to pressure test your loads?

I wish I had pressure testing equipment! Maybe one day.

I thought that slug was heavier but 690 grs. isn't a lightweight at any rate. Even at 1800 FPS recoil has to be fierce! I wouldn't to be standing behind you when you pull the trigger on the 140 gr. load. I suspect you will be skidding backward with recoil!

I thought slugs were illegal in Denmark. Or is this considered a "boolit" in a rifled gun? Just curious.

Longbow

[Chicken Thief]

Regarding pressure i rely on QuickLoads guestimates.
The 120gr load was not bad at all, think BP recoil.
More of a stout push than the kick the faster powder gives (and believe me it get's your attention!)

Here's the funny thing regarding slugs and Denmark.
No mention in the law regulating weapons and ammo, what so ever.
Only mentioned in the law regulating hunting and what to use during that.
And there it only states that they are illigal to fire in a smoothbore.
I have a Mossberg cal. 12 rifled barrel and the thing is registered as a rifle with the police. I can mount a smooth barrel and use it as a shotgun but it still is a rifle on the papers. Of course i have to follow regulations for shotguns while using it with a smooth barrel. Ie. pellets no more than 4mm~US #1 and no lead.

[longbow]

Ed Hubel says much the same with his heavy loads ~ not as brutal as one might think due to the slower acceleration with slow powder.

What is the reason for restricting slugs in smoothbores? I thought slugs were quite popular and common in most European countries (maybe excepting Denmark). Can you get a way with saying a bore size ball is one BIG buckshot?

We do have hunting restrictions here with slugs adn they cannot be used for game larger than deer. Not sure why but that is the way it is. I could see limiting type of slug or having minimum amount of energy or something like that but a bore size round ball, Gualandi DGS or Brenneke should easily handle elk and moose.

Not sure but we may have a contradiction in principle too because I do not know of any hunting restrictions for smoothbore muskets and as far as I know they are not classed as shotguns. If a .62 cal. trade musket shooting a patched .600" ball is legal then a 12 ga. should be.

Anyway, I still don't want to be standing behind you when you torch off the 140 gr. load! Maybe if I have padding and a BIG catcher's mitt!

Hmmmmm, if you could shoot some video and post it I am sure it would be exciting to watch. The muzzle flash must light up the whole area! I'll bet onlookers should be wearing sunglasses!

Hah! That reminds me of an article I read about a fellow shooting a Harris Desert Rhino in .50 BMG. He said the muzzle blast and shock wave produce "... an otherworldly experience..." I think you will be there my friend!

Longbow

[Chicken Thief]

In Denmark we are limited to 4mm~US #1 shot in shotguns.
Anything bigger in a smoothbore is a big no-no.
Wery resently (2009 i think) BP guns became legal for hunting ie. frontloaders alas anything other than cartridge guns. The smoothbore/ball thing is a very good question and i have to take it up with the local Sheriff.

In Sweden buckshot and slugs are allowed for hunting and here is the funny bit:
Slugs are not allowed on roe deer (30-45lbs) but ok for anything bigger. Pigs, elk, Moose, tractors, planes and anything else in season.
Reason is that the target area is to little on a deer that is the size of a medium dog, but the larger ones compensate for the spread pattern of a smoothbore firing a slug.

Vill see about the video. My cell is a model launched just after landline and it has a camera but i think only stills and less than 1Mpix.
Wont be me firing though (hand surgery thursday!). But i might get help from a member with a modern camera/tv/PC/MP3/MP4/video thingamajig phone (that can make coffee, spotweld, remowe paint and whatnot).

Ramblings on legality in Scandinavia.

Rifles:
Anything bigger than: fox, hare, goose etc is: min. caliber 22 and min. bullet weight 3.2gram~50gr and min. energy is 800j~600flbs at 100m~110yds.
And that is per se roe deer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_deer

Anything bigger tha roe deer: Caliber min. 22 and bullet weight min. 9gram~139gr with a E100 of min 2700j~2000flbs OR min weight of 10gram~154gr and E100 of 2000j~1480flbs.

Shotguns:
Min. barrel length 55cm~22", max. caliber 12. Max 2 shots.

Theese laws was made in the 1950's and here is the reason for the energy demands.
Farmers in Scandinavia from the 1800's and onvards paid a fee at the sheriff to get a rifle license. The RB was sold to privates from 1867 so by 1955 there were gods only know how many rifles on private hands that gobberment knew squat about.
The good old "50-70" of the Swedes and Norwegans only delivered @ 1600j~1200flbs at 100m~110yds but the new fangled M1896 6.5x55 just about made 2000j~1480flbs at the same distance. Law was made and now all the unregistered rifles had to be traded in for new rifles that the gobberment had registered.
Wonder if the hundred and hundred of thousands of Moose killed with BP ever knew that the 50cal 450gr boolit did'nt hold modern muster?

Again old laws: Shotgun no more than cal. 12. When law was made typical of a 12 gauge was = max. length 67½-70mm~2½-2 5/8". That set a natural max. shot load. Now we have 3½" shells holding double the old max. weight or more. Nobody ever thinks that a bigger bore will deliver a better pattern with the same load of shot. It takes sense and they have none!

Airguns: Oh the stupidity!!!
A year ago no limitations at all.
Now anything above 4.5mm~.177" has to be registrered. So a slobby 100fps 5.5mm~.20" cal is probited but a 330m/s~1100fps with a 16grain pellet yelding 56j~42flbs is absolutly free to own. Talk about stupid.

Enough ramblings for now. (i was getting myself wound up)

[longbow]

CT:

There is no sense to make of nonsense! We have it here too. We just got rid of our long gun registry so that is good. I think the government finally realized that the criminals weren't registering the guns they had and the registry cost a fortune (billions of dollars to set up) and they couldn't keep it straight anyway.

Handguns still have to be registered and there are many restrictions on them. Oddly handguns are the first choice of criminals so I am not sure what the government thought they would solve by registering long guns. handguns have been registered here for generations and can only be shot on private property or at a registered gun club. No packing them around, no hunting and no going anyway with one.

We also have to take a course and pass a test to own firearms and we have to have PAL (Possession and Acquisition License) as well and it is renewable every 5 years. There are two courses and levels of approval, one for long arms and one for restricted weapons.

I have no argument with people having to take a course before they can purchase an own firearms. A little education never hurt anyone and for many, guns and ammunition are a complete mystery. There was one woman in the restricted weapons course that thought that if she was shooting at 100 yards the bullets stopped there like they knew they didn't have to go any further. Not someone you want shooting off in the bush near you or your house for sure! I hope the course sorted that out for her. Scary!

Anyway, I digress. We have more stupid than good laws here too especially firearms related laws.

Longbow

[350Gr]

Funny thing is that i use styrofoam as a wad in my full power slugs.
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Mossberg/R0010847.jpg

And they look almost prestine and reuseable after firing. But when i compress them with my fingers they stay flattened, go figure.

PS. Maybe they act non Newtonian? I.e. like quicksand and custard.

Is that a pure lead slug or one that is hardened? Hand made or store bought?

[Chicken Thief]

It is a modified Lyman Foster slug that has had the bands added and a new (non) hollow base pin installed. I cast to a BHN of @12

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Mossberg/R0010849.jpg
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Mossberg/R0010848.jpg

[350Gr]

It is a modified Lyman Foster slug that has had the bands added and a new (non) hollow base pin installed. I cast to a BHN of @12

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Mossberg/R0010849.jpg
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Mossberg/R0010848.jpg

Nice... By the way, looking at your loaded slug rounds it appears you are using extruded powder. Where do you get your load data from or is that home-brew?

350Gr:CastBoolitsisbest:

[Chicken Thief]

Quickload

[mike_kaleigh]

your guys gun laws suck!!!!!!!!!!!!! here in the usa our law make a little more scene, though our political leader really do not know the difference between a lot of guns. they think just because it is an ak47, or ar15 its only uses are for killing people. or really don't understand differences between semi, or fully automatic even both are legal. if we did not have the second amendment we would be in the same boat as you. my wife and i have had our conceal carry for 3 years now and it feels weird not to have a handgun on me, kinda like not having your wallet. one of the funniest laws or a way to get around it, is we cant import assault weapons into the usa (but we can make them) but what the importers do, is take the guns apart, ship them in and reassemble the with a few american parts, and now you have a legal imported assault weapon. only in the usa. i bet in the us there are more guns than people.

[AnnieOakley]

Funny thing is that i use styrofoam as a wad in my full power slugs.
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Mossberg/R0010847.jpg

And they look almost prestine and reuseable after firing. But when i compress them with my fingers they stay flattened, go figure.

PS. Maybe they act non Newtonian? I.e. like quicksand and custard.

Chicken Thief,
Have you tried using the spray foam insulation? It's called "Great Stuff" in the US. A custom Brenneke wad can be easily made in a make-shift injection mold using pvc pipe as a die. A soon as I get a cylinder bore choke I can do some testing.
CoalHog (AnnieOakley typing :))

[Chicken Thief]

Ahh but i dont want anything stuck to the bottom of the boolit, i shoot a rifle.
It is only there to ocupy space. And by now i have proper wads to take the place of the styrofoam.

[Cap'n Morgan]

Things are progressing nicely. We have a bunch of hard plastic block at work from a previous job. Don't know what type of plastic it is, but it is extremely strong and tough. Each block is good for fifteen wads. I think I'll try machining a lip profile in the bottom of the wads and maybe skip using a separate seal wad.

I hope to send some slugs downrange during the weekend if time permits it.

http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/3074/img0043me.jpg

http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/5558/udklipn.jpg

[jmort]

Nice work. You have put a lot of thought into this project and it shows. Looking forward to test results.

[longbow]

Very nice Cap'n Morgan! Those do look good!

If you can turn an integral seal that is probably your best choice as long as the plastic is flexible enough. I wouldn't go too thin on the trailing edge though or it may fail as it leave the muzzle. Probably better thick than thin. Those nice grooves around the wad should stop any minor leakage especially if you are running 0.005" over bore size (I think that's what you said anyway).

Looking good to go!

Looking forward to range report!

Longbow

[Cap'n Morgan]

Yesterday I assembled five slugs and loaded them on top of a seal wad and 25 grains of Herco. I haven't got around to finding a roll crimper and just ran them through the star crimp on my MEC. They sat pretty deep and the star crimp ended up as a very deep roll crimp. I thought of shortening the shells, but decided that a full length shell would guide the slug better through the forcing cone. (perhaps a 3" case would be even better)

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/4494/img0047b.jpg

Today it was off to the range to test the slugs. I decided on using my semi-auto Beretta which can be mounted with a holo sight and has a skeet barrel. At 45 yards I managed to miss a two by three' cardboard target completely, but at least the gun didn't explode and the shell ejected nicely. I moved to 30 yards and tried again. Another miss, but this time my shooting buddy - who was standing at a safe distance! - noticed the slug hitting just above the target. I then aimed at the bottom of the target and fired the remaining three shots from squatting position. The first two shot printed less than two inches apart while the last one opened the group to 5". When studying the target, the first two shots had cut two perfectly round holes, while the last "flier" had hit at a slight angle.

http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/9144/img0053gr.jpg

We didn't find any traces of the slugs in the frozen ground - only one of the seal wads which apparently had been squeezed so hard against the base that it had locked onto it. If you look at the picture you can clearly see the imprint of the screw head - in fact, the wad had actually been pierced by the pressure at the rim of the screw.

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/6435/img0052jj.jpg

Well, back to work to make a few wads, this time with a skirt cut in the bottom. (the machining time for five wads is a little less than six minutes so no big deal) I talked to the boss and learned that the plastic was actually POM - a plast material which, according to Wiki " is characterized by its high strength, hardness and rigidity" - Sounds just right.

Five more slugs was loaded...

http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/2961/img0048d.jpg

Notice how deep the slugs are sitting. I think I need a wad or a nitro card under the slug:
http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/282/img0054pd.jpg

Back to the range! Light was fading quickly and it was blowing & snowing so no crono or pics. This time I shot from 50 yards and had placed the aiming point low at the target. The five shots printed into a 9 x 4" group - no signs of tumbling. At first I was a bit puzzled; the group was twice as wide as it was high, but then I realized I was shooting an auto loader with the sight mounted on the reciever - not the barrel. When I tried grabbing the barrel, it was rocking like a loose tooth!

To sum it up: I'm pretty pleased with the results so far and pretty sure the load kan be futher improved upon. I have a few things still, I'd like to try...

[45 2.1]

Cap'n-
Here is something to try............ place a copper washer (at least as big in diameter as the slug and smaller than the wad) between the slug and plastic base wad. A U.S. penny is too large, but very close to the right size.

[Chicken Thief]

Hi mate, have you tried www.siarm.com ?
They are fast and very cheap.
A rollcrimper cost @ €6 and a bag of wads €2½

[longbow]

Looking good Cap'n!

Yes, wads and or gas seals have been my constant problem as well. Your machined wads look good though and with a beefy integral seal may do the trick. I am liking your slug/wad combo for sure.

I have been planning to get out shooting my copper skirted Brennekes for the last two weeks but have been kinda sick so haven't shot yet.

There are at least three of us working on Brenneke like slugs currently. I hope at least one of us succeeds!

Keep up the good work!. I am looking forward to more range reports and hope to be posting my own shortly.

Longbow

[Cap'n Morgan]

Hi mate, have you tried www.siarm.com ?
They are fast and very cheap.
A rollcrimper cost @ €6 and a bag of wads €2½

Much interesting stuff at the Siarm link. Think I'll order some of the plastic seal wads and perhaps some of the "sandwiched" old-style wads. And a roll crimper, of couse...

[Cap'n Morgan]

So far I hadn't been able to recover any of my new slugs. Today I tried a couple of shots in a nearby gravel pit which holds some very fine grained sand. The first slug penetrated about six inches an was remarkably undamaged - there was no sign of the wad, however, perhaps because I didn't countersink the head of the screws and they only held on by a single turn. The next one penetrated a full foot, was even less damaged and it still had the wad attached.


http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/2223/img0068vll.jpg

Two of the ribs shows signs of contact with the forcing cone, but only over half the rib length and the slug is still perfectly round. Amazingly, there's no measurable setback lengthwise on the second slug. Any weight loss is less than the variation during casting. BTW, the combined slug weight (slug,wad & screw) is 570 grains.

http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/4556/img0071sk.jpg

No sign of damage to the wad, whatsoever. But the soot between the ribs seem to indicate som gas blow-by. Also, both the two powders I tried so far - Herco and Steel - leaves some residue in the barrel. It seems slug loads has less initial friction than normal shot loads - or perhaps it's just because my loads gets a running start due to the deep seating.

Next step will be testing various sorts of designs for the bottom of the wad. The more hollow base I can get away with, the better. The screw can be shorter and center of gravity will move forward.

[Chicken Thief]

Forget about center of gravity.
Think lawn dart or real dart arrow.
Drag is whats doing its mojo and keeping the heavy end up front.

On a related note: I will pick up a shotgun barrel for my Maverick on thursday. So now i can add my own slug tests.

[longbow]

Looking very good Cap'n Morgan! I had trouble with my original Brenneke design, which looked a lot like your slug, but your attached wad is much more rigid than mine was. Mine canted in the forcing cone and crushed ribs which did nothing good for accuracy.

Like Chicken Thief, I am hoping I will also be able to add shooting results from my copper skirted Brennekes next weekend.

This should be fun and interesting! Lots going on in the slug world around here!

Longbow

[Chicken Thief]

I have loaded up a little for sunday. That rotten no good right front paw wont hold a 3lb sledgehammer for spit! Thing has gone lazy from 13 days of feeling comfy. This will end!!!

Loadings:
5 with swaged boolits and liaded like a Brenneke, over powder wad and felt wad sandviched between two cardboard discs.
5 735 roundballs attached to a feltwad
5 735 roundballs attached to a plastic wad.

I slaughtered some 24gram skeet shots for the powder.

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Til%20andre/R0011279_zps959ceb9c.jpg


And here is the lazy bastard (took a week before it could hold a beercan!)
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Til%20andre/R0011278_zpsf4ad0066.jpg

[longbow]

Looking forward to all these upcoming range results!

I tried round balls over hard card wads with poor success but your felt wads with likely do better. I also tried the screwed on cushion leg and found that they collapsed and did not "reform" evenly once out of the barrel. It didn't work for me anyway. Those look like a better cushion leg than I used though.

I do like those Brennekes!

Oh, and yuck! on the hand photo! I hope you recover quickly.

Good luck and keep us posted!

Longbow

[Chicken Thief]

I went and bought a shot barrel (Improved Cylinder) 28" today.
That will give a fair result not impared of rifling.

[Cap'n Morgan]

Loaded five slugs with a hollow base wad on top of 23 grains Unique. I had to add a crumbled sheet of toilet paper on top of the powder to keep the slug from rattling in the case. The slugs was fired into a clay berm to test for strength. At 30 yards the group was so-so... five inch high, but only two inch wide - clearly some stringing was going on. The slugs held up very well as the picture shows. Notice the small black ring around the skirt; the hollow base seems to seal better.

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/453/img0075fa.jpg

I then loaded three slugs with solid base wad over 35 grains of Blue Dot. These wads had no counter sink for the screw which no doubt caused this interesting group at 30 yards. Eight holes in three shots! The center group is a nice 2-1/2 x 1" Below you can see the holes from two of the wads and above, the three self tapping screws has produced some nice key holing! I used a big, hard compressed hay bale for backstop, but the wads still had enough energy to penetrate six inches. Now I'll simply have to try loading a few slugs without attaching the wad!

http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/6034/img0074go.jpg

So far all my test have consisted of small samples just to get the hang of things. I'm learning new stuff all the time. But it's good fun!

Blue Dot seems to be a good choice for these heavy slugs. 35 grains gave 1420 fps with an SD of 11 fps. So far, I haven't crony'ed any of the previous loads, but they all printed higher than the Blue Dot load, indicating a somewhat slower speed.

[longbow]

I have had pretty good results with Blue Dot myself.

I also had trouble with screws bending and failing with screwed on wads. Not sure why the slugs would tip but so they do! Also, not sure how the factory Brennekes avoid the problem. I would credit their solid wad columns with a lot of it but you have a very solid wad there so that really shouldn't be the problem.

You might try the hot melt glue attached wad like the route I have gone. So far that is working pretty well for me but with bore size slugs you need to use a paper tube to keep the glue from contacting the bore. I mostly shoot sub bore slugs in shotcups so that solves it.

I will be out with my copper tube skirted slugs tomorrow so hoping to have good range report.

Longbow

[Cap'n Morgan]

I guess the separating was to be expected - the screws barely held on to the slugs. When properly countersunk, the screws hold extremely well. I think the slugs are "waggin' the tail" rapidly during flight and this is what causes the damage to less sturdy wads. The speed of the slug is creating turbulence which is shaking things apart unless wad & slug are securely bonded - especially when approaching the speed of sound. Supersonic speed may actually improve on this situation as a "cavity" is created around and behind the slug, but this is purely speculation on my part.

I have an idea for a cheaper and much more simple solution to the wad material and the wad-separation problem. The plan is still to develop a Brenneke-type slugs that can be produced without any fancy machines and materials, but one thing at the time... Looking forward to the results from you and Chicken Thief.

[longbow]

Well, I hope you guys do better than I did yesterday!

I just posted results of yet another failure. It turns out that the nice flare I put on the copper Brenneke skirts was a bit narrow and sharp resulting in grabbing the hulls and tearing chunks out! Bad juju that!

I will try changing the flare to a cylindrical section if I can as that should eliminate the grabbing and as another test, I will use unflared tube and ball in a shotcup. So two more range reports to come.

I am depending on you guys for some successes at this point!

Cap'n Morgan and Chicken Thief ~ you guys both have good slug designs going here but the wad/skirt is the issue I have not yet solved so I hope you do.

Longbow

[Chicken Thief]

I have to eat some humblepie now longbow!
I thought this would be a walk in the park, but no:shock:

Powder i got from a 24gram steel skeet round.
All shots at 50m~55yds, thats where the beast lives and grouping starts to fall through.

First test: .735" roundball + screwed on plastic wad. Clearly elongated holes from the wads but the best "group" i think. The shift is because i changed point of aim.
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Hagl/R0011285_zpsc79d1797.jpg

Second test: .735" oundball + screwed on felt wad. It shot way high so only 3 hits on target.
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Hagl/R0011283_zps20b1e2e9.jpg

Thierd test: Swaged boolit + screwed on feltwad between 2 card wads.
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Hagl/R0011284_zps15e496be.jpg

Next week will be some of my originally homemade slugs and roundballs without wads. Just to get groups for future reference.
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Hagl/R0010409.jpg

[Cap'n Morgan]

Tough luck, guys! I'm beginning to think we're in for a long haul... My groups pretty much resembles The Thief's, not really bad, but not stellar either.

One thing is buggering me, though. I keep reading about the helical ribs of the Brenneke slug, and how it's not actually stabilizing the slug - even Brenneke's homepage says so. Well, maybe so, but even a slow rotation should improve accuracy since it would keep the slug from drifting off on a vector, and instead keep it in a constant "barrel roll" around a center path - Just like helical fletching will aid a crooked arrow in flight. From what I can tell from the targets my slugs are pretty well stabilized. The holes are round and shows no excessive sign of wobbling. I'll do some more testing, but if things doesn't improve I'll try with a helical rib design.

[Chicken Thief]

If it dont aid stability then why are they askew?

[longbow]

The Gualandi DGS slug shoots very well and doesn't have "vanes". I don't believe that the Brenneke helical grooves have any significant effect.

The BPI AQ slug is one of the most accurate slugs I have shot and it is simply drag stabilized with a long plastic attached wad. It does have helical vanes but recovered slugs show that those vanes are non existent after shooting. Also they are operating in a partial vacuum due to the shock wave.

My opinion anyway.

I still think the big secret to success is a solid and consistent basewad.

Chicken Thief ~ are you shooting rifled or smoothbore?

With naked 0.735" round ball on a HARD card wad column I get 3" to 4" groups at 50 yards from smoothbore and got several 2" +/- a bit groups using a borrowed rifled gun. I emphasize HARD card wad column because I tried cushion legs with shotcup petals cut off, fiber wads and a few others and the only thing that worked for me was a hard card wad column and that worked well!

I reworked my punch and die set to make a cylindrical bearing surface in the copper tube so it shouldn't dig into the hull next time. I will also try to make up some to fit into shotcups which has so far been my easiest route for loading and good accuracy.

I may even break out my straight ribbed Brenneke mould again and try with different basewads. Stacked nitro card wads did not work for me, they delaminate and get ragged edges.

In my opinion, there is no humble pie to be eaten, this is a tough road to good and consistent smoothbore slug shooting accuracy. Every time I figure I am onto something I get unexplained and unacceptable flyers... except with round balls. I even had a Gualandi DGS slug keyhole at 50 yards. Also, recovered DGS slugs showed that they suffer damage from the cushion leg ramming into them and they distort in the barrel.

As Thomas Edison said "I haven't failed, I have found ten thousand ways that don't work". I think I am working on more than ten thousand but you get the drift!

My experience anyway.

Longbow

[Chicken Thief]

longbow

I didnt cheat, i actually bought a smoothbore barrel, so i can shoot on equal terms with ya'll!
This sunday our testing area are used for competition so nothing until sunday 17.
I will shoot this storebought slugs for comparison.
Remington Slugger
Winchester Super X
Rottweil Brenneke
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Hagl/R0011287_zps5d20d25e.jpg

[Cap'n Morgan]

It will be interesting to see what the factory loads can do. I managed to find a dozen cartridges, half made by Rottweill and half by FN Legia, both loaded with the "Original Brenneke" slug. They are some thirty or forty years old and only 67.5mm long (2.66") Like you, I'll shoot them for comparison.

I took one apart and made an exact 3D model from it. The diameter is 18.6mm (0.732) and the wad is a full 19mm (0.748) - perhaps this is a clue to their performance? Of course, it could also be a result of the cartridges being way over their "Best before..." date [smilie=1: The slug weight, including wad was only 31g (475 grains) - Sissy loads!

What's the weight of your factory loads?

[Chicken Thief]

1 ounzers (28.3gram) for the lot.

[longbow]

Hahahahahaha! You are in for a challenge now Chicken Thief! At least if you testing goes anything like mine.

I have had quite good results from factory Foster rounds, especially Remington Slugger and Federal Tru-Ball, and some purchased slugs Brenneke, AQ and Gualandi. Now I am going crazy trying to get that accuracy from home cast home loaded rounds. I have not been successful and I am developing a twitch due to the frustration!

I have come close and I have had some successes but so far the successes have required way more work than I will put into shotgun slugs for anything but a few tests. I am trying to come up with an easy to make slug that will give decent accuracy out to 100 yards. AQ does, Federal Tru-Ball does, Remington Sluggers do... but my home made slugs have not made it yet. Grrrrrr! But I am still trying.

I am hoping one of you two find the secret then share... please share!

Good luck. In all honesty, it is fun trying.

Longbow

[Chicken Thief]

Just had an opiifoni eppi epipo...... brainfart!
Maybe the screw is a big culprit regarding failed accuracy?
So i thought this up:

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Hagl/R0011289_zps6dc0c17a.jpg
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Hagl/R0011291_zps3428fdde.jpg
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Hagl/R0011292_zpsaed5b835.jpg

Let the attached wad flex as it wants and let the bottom wad take all the pressure and gas sealing.
longbow, ya'll thunk of that?

[longbow]

Again, my experience only, but I suspect that long cushion leg will not leave the barrel the same each time ~ too much leg to crush and distort.

I have tried several standard cushion legs cut off wads then screwed onto slugs but recovered slugs indicated "random" compression/rebound" of cushion legs ~ accuracy was not good. Gregg Sappington sent me some steel wads with thick petal shotcups. I thought I had a good attached wad slug using one of those with a press fit slug over about 4 nitro card wads. I thought the cushion leg looked very much like the Gualandi DGS leg.

They stayed together but again, accuracy was not too good and recovered slugs showed uneven crushing/rebound of the leg (no screw through them). Another closer check showed that the Gualandi cushion leg is much more "robust".

So, I think the idea is good but the cushion leg may not perform. It is certainly worth trying though.

My feeling is that a solid plastic leg like Cap'n Morgan's is the way to go but I am not about to machine every wad for my slugs. I am too lazy for that! My attached wads are now hot melt glue poured into forms. That is fairly easy to do and so far is giving reasonable results but no better than round ball loads at 50 yards.

I have been wrong before though... many, many times! In fact I think I am on the road to find every idea that doesn't work.

Like I said, it is good to see others in this game and I hope at least one of us is successful!

Good luck.

Longbow

[Cap'n Morgan]

Alright, it's been a while since last update, but experiments are still ongoing.

First, I decided to try another gun to see if it would improve groups. So far I've been using my semi auto Beretta as it can be mounted with a holo-sight. I decided to give my trusty ol' Krieghoff O/U a chance, but I didn't expect much as it has extremely long forcing cones - about two inches, and both barrels has improved modified chokes. Nevertheless, the first five shot group at 30 meters was a mere 2-1/2 inch. Things was starting to look promising! When examining the target it was clear that at least two of the slugs had shed their skirt, even though they had been tightly screwed to the slug. One of the wads had struck the target at least a foot from the group, indicating that it must have separated as soon as the slug was clear of the barrel. It's obvious that the slugs are pretty stable on their own and perhaps the skirt isn't necessary at all.

Well, on to the next project. Since the whole idea is to keep things simple, I went straight to plan B: Paper mache wads. It's actually pretty simple. Some water, some newspaper and a slightly oversize mold to compensate for shrinkage.

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/3393/moldan.jpg

http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/9445/wado.jpg

The newspaper is boiled for a few minutes until it resembles oatmeal porridge. Once the mixture has cooled you can squeeze most of the water from it. Then the gooey mess can be mashed into the mold and then left to dry for 24 hours. Once semi-dry the wads can easily be pushed out of the mold, they are still pretty fragile and must dry for at least 24 hours more. When fully dried, the wads are extremely hard and can probably be made even tougher by impregnating with hat varnish or something similar.

http://img580.imageshack.us/img580/121/wads.jpg

I picked up the three wads in the foreground some twenty yards from the muzzle. Even though the base of the wad has taken some punishment, the top is still intact and has protected the base of the slug as intented even though this batch of slugs was cast from almost pure lead.

http://img542.imageshack.us/img542/1218/groupr.jpg


This four shot, four inch group was shot at forty meters (44 yards) Not half-bad, considering the Krieghoff has no proper sights, only a large front bead. Certainly good enough for the intended purpose of these slugs: running boars within fifty meters.

There's still a lot to be tried. Like Longbow, I would like a slug which can be used out to a hundred yards with decent accuracy, but first I need to attach a scope to the Krieghoff - my eyes are not quite up to the task of open sights at hundred yards.

[longbow]

Things are looking up! Keep up the good work Cap'n Morgan.

I have to get out to do some more testing too but not this weekend unfortunately. The road to our range is closed due to break up ~ it gets really muddy and soft this time of year so will be closed for a week or two.

Longbow

[Chicken Thief]

Well gangwars in Denmark has put a hold to my "research".
They have shot up a range after closing time and Police are going ape$h!7 all over the place.
So much so that my local "do it all" range is down to max. 223 and BP calibers for rifles, and shotguns is flat out a big no-no.
But we'll see.

100m from a smooth bore is a big mouthfull, no?
A 100m 4-5" group i will expect from my rifle barrel but from a nano-rifling bore, i would flat out say, cant be done.
But please proof me wrong. And i'll continue to do my research in the dark ;)

[JIMinPHX]

100m from a smooth bore is a big mouthfull, no?
A 100m 4-5" group i will expect from my rifle barrel but from a nano-rifling bore, i would flat out say, cant be done.


Back when I loaded Lee slugs in a 12 bore & shot them from a cylinder choked pump gun, I had surprisingly good results. I think that it might be possible to get sub 6" groups at 100M with a smooth bore. Unfortunately, I no longer have that gun or the facilities to make the tests.

[longbow]

Jim:

I have been striving to get 6" groups at 100 yards and would be happy with them! Ever since I read in the Lyman Shotshell Reloading Manual that the Lyman Foster slug could produce 4" groups at 100 yards I have had visions of a "poor man's" Paradox gun in the form of a side by 12 ga. with rifle sights. However, excepting for a few factory Foster slugs and AQ slugs I have been unable to get consistent reasonable groups at 100 yards.

I found that the Lyman Foster is so far undersize (0.705") that it has to upset to fill the bore unless patched to bore size. I have not gotten anything resembling accuracy from it but recent discussions with a fellow in the know is leading me to some new tests with a more solid wad column. We will see how that goes.

The plain 'ol round ball does well to 50 yards or a bit better and in fact for me the round ball has provided superior accuracy to most slugs to 50 yards! I am getting 3" to 4" groups at 50 yards with round balls. A couple of exceptions are slugs that have given about 2" groups at 50 yards... but then a random wild flier shows up!

So far my Lee Drive Key slugs are running about 6" at 50 yards but I haven't done a lot of work with them yet. I have shot them as cast and also with an attached basewad "Brenneke" style. The modified Lee did better than as cast but again, I haven't shot enough to get sorted out.

As for slugs, I am heading down the solid route as I do not like hollow base slugs. So solid with attached wad is the direction I am going. So far pretty good results but no better at 50 yards than round balls, but they may do better at longer range. yet to be tested!

Chicken Thief:

While I am still trying, I believe 4" to 6" groups are possible with good slugs and a solid gun. I have shot Federal Factory Foster slugs that gave groups of about 6" at 100 yards and I bought some BPI AQ slugs for reloading that also produced groups of slightly larger than 6" at 100 yards. I think the various attached wad slugs provide the best chance for long range accuracy ~ like Brenneke, Vit Boos, Gualandi and a few others. Now getting a home made clone to shoot as well as those factory loads is the trick! Easier said than done in my experience! But I am still trying. That is why it is good to see you and Cap'n Morgan working in the same direction. If we all put our heads together we may beat this thing!

Happy shooting!

Longbow

[JIMinPHX]

I got good accuracy using 18.5 grains of Green Dot & a pink Winchester wad that had the petals cut down part way. I was roll crimping. You can see my petal cutting method here - castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?86712-moderate-load-data-for-Lee-slugs/page3

This load only gave me around 1,000fps, but the wads that I recovered were still pretty beat up & the drive key impression was unmistakable. I think that punching up the pressure for more speed would have required a stronger wad to prevent from having wad related accuracy issues that were rooted in deformed wads giving the slug an uneven push out of the barrel. That's my expectation anyway. I never pushed them harder than that, so I don't actually know for sure.

[longbow]

Jim:

The way to beat the Drive Key "impression" is to put a nitro card wad under the slug. That fixes things up pretty good. I use 16 ga. but 20 ga. work too.

My loads were somewhat hotter than yours and I really haven't played much with the Lee slug yet. I did make some into attached wad slugs and groups were smaller than with as cast but again, I haven't shot enough to draw any real conclusions.

Longbow

[dverna]

Capt

I was able to mount an EoTech sight on my K-80 using a rib mount (B-Square I believe). The allen screws tend to loosen and mark up the rib if tightened too much so I solved the problem by using epoxy to fill the hole between the area under the rib where the "clamps" are secured. I coated the rib area well with grease and was able to remove the epoxy without damage to the rib after shooting the gun for a few months. The set up worked for over 2000 rounds without issue. Regrettably, this is not an "on-off" system so you cannot revert back to the rib easily. I was experimenting with shooting American Trap with the EoTech but my average continued to be better with a standard rib so I abandoned the idea. The EoTech took the recoil of 12 ga loads with no issues. If you "need" a spare barrel for your K-80 let me know. I have two spare barrels - Unsingle (choke tubed) and O/U (IM/F).

[Cap'n Morgan]

Dverna,

Thanks for your input. The wheels has been turning and this is what I came up with. Things are so much easier when you have access to top-modern machine shop:

http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/1565/img0002mo.jpg

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/9232/img0003zd.jpg

As you can see it's basically a picatinny rail. It's held in place by two eccentric pins. The rail has a milled slot that match the width of the rib exactly. When turned 180 degree, the pins pull the rail tight to the rib and take up any slack there might bee. The mount can be removed and re-installed in no time. The scope is an almost forty years old Leupold M8 x2, but it's still going strong - the eye relief is just right for the job.

I can understand why you gave up on the Eotech. In my opinion the balance in a shotgun is easily ruined once you heap weight on top of it. If anything, I prefer the much smaller Doctor holo-sight, but you'll still need some sort of comb riser to account for the added height.

Now the sight problem is out of the way, I can concentrate on the slugs. The plan is to test at least three different combinations:

A "heavi-slug" based on my hollow-base slug with a solid, machined plastic wad screwed on. Total weight 570 grains.

A "Lite-slug" with a screwed-on wad made from paper pulp. total weight around 500 grains.

Same as above, but the slug & wad are just stacked on top of each other - no screw. In all the loads a plastic seal wad will be placed over the powder. Still waiting for the seals to arrive from Italy along with some other goodies.

[dverna]

Nice mount Capt.!!!! They need to be rock solid as 12 ga recoil will take its toll.

Regrettably, I deleted all my pictures of my set up. I had a custom comb to get my head up high enough to use the EoTech. I REALLY like the sight. Weight and balance was no problem at all as I shoot a heavy gun anyway - I am a recoil sissy so weight is my friend.

I admire the work you are doing and will follow your progress.

I am just itching to get into slug casting for self defense practice so I need something simple and fast but I appreciate those like you who try to push the technology.

Good luck!!

[JIMinPHX]

Longbow, I understand that a nitro card under the slug would support the base of the wad & prevent the drive key impression. I am not sure that this is desirable for best accuracy. Perhaps one of the reasons why my accuracy was as good as it was, had something to do with the fact that the wad deformed rather than the base of the slug. Perhaps a slug that got a gentle push & retained it's original shape better, then flew better?

...Just a thought that I offer for additional discussion.

[longbow]

Jim:

I can't argue there. Lee's intent with the drive key was to both prevent the wad from blowing into the base and also to provide a positive engagement for rifled guns so the slug didn't skid inside the shotcup. With soft lead, the slugs do obturate so I doubt skidding would be an issue anyway ~ my opinion. I have not shot then in a rifled gun so cannot compare accuracy with and without the nitro card wad or with hard or soft lead. I am a smoothbore guy. I have found that the nitro card wad does help in my smoothbores though.

That one drive key rib does not prevent all wads from finding their way into the hollow base or from cracking or severe distortion so one has to check wads and use what works. Some may work well without the nitro card wad. I have very limited selection of wads locally... like none so use what I can get which is Winchester AA and Pacific Versalite right now. Apparently the Federal wads are very good and then one could start with Lee's suggested wads too.

As for obturating, yes, the soft lead Lees do distort quite a bit in my experience so get even shorter and fatter and I have recovered soft Lee slugs others have shot that have wad impressions in an uneven skirt.

I have been casting mine from range scrap which is about the same hardness as ACWW. I have not yet recovered one of my Lee slugs cast from wheelweights (too much snow) but I found with other hollow base designs that not only was a thick skirt required but heat treating as well to prevent skirt distortion.

So, a slower powder and moderate load would certainly help and if skirt distortion is a problem with soft lead then a harder alloy and possibly heat treated would help. If the wads look okay without a nitro card wad then that should be good.

My experience with smoothbores anyway. I am still working on loads and learning as I go... learning slowly and getting punch drunk from recoil!

Longbow

[JIMinPHX]

I was shooting from an 18-1/2" smooth bore. I cast from cable sheath, which came up about 6.5bnh. My fired slugs were all distorted badly upon impact, so I could not accurately evaluate them for base deformation upon firing.

[LUTNIT]

I just shot a bunch of Lee 1oz slugs yesterday with a combination of plain plastic wads, wads with 1x .125" 20ga nitro card, and 2x .125" 20ga nitro card. My slugs are cast from WW's and water dropped so probably quite hard.

These where moderate to firm loads over 40gr of Bluedot out of a 22" smooth bore 870 with cylinder bore choke.

The bare plastic wads and wads with 1x nitro card both grouped about 5" at 50yds. The recovered wads where interesting. The plain wads had all 4 petals intact but the wad had obviously flowed into the base with an imprint of the key drive part clearly engraved deep into the plastic. The wads that used a nitro card had pristine bases in the shot cups that, if you removed the crushed accordion part and dirty petals, would look brand new.

The loads with 2x nitro cards where all over the map. Not all of them hit the board and I would guess about a 24" group at 50yds. No idea what went wrong here.

I didn't have my chrony out but I have checked the loads with just the wad and no nitro cards before and it was around 1400fps. I had two sets of 5 of each slug load, 5 for smooth bore and 5 for my rifled barrel, but when I got to the range I realized I had forgotten the rifled barrel beside my computer desk at home. Will have to test those some other time.

[longbow]

LUTNIT:

The groups you got running 5" at 50 yards are not bad. You might improve on those groups some but like I said, my experience with Lee slugs is a bit limited so far.

I have to think that the wild loads with 2 nitro card wads are due to fit. The petals of the wads are tapered so the higher the slug sits the looser the fit. Even at that though I would not have thought it would make that much difference. The worst groups I have gotten with slugs are from the Lyman Foster slugs but even those were 12" to 18" at 50 yards. So, I guess I have no idea either. It seems a little strange that the slugs would go so wild.

You might try a softer alloy to see how that goes and also check fit to barrel in wads or try different wads.

Having said that, if plain wads and with one nitro card wad is working for you then you are good.

What wads are you using?

It will be interesting to see how they perform in the rifled barrel.

Keep us posted.

Longbow

[LUTNIT]

For the plain wad I'm using WAA12 wads (orange ones).
For the nitro card loads I needed some more room in the hull so I used Claybuster clones of the WAA12R wads. Red ones with really short legs I normally use for 00 buckshot.
The taper in the wads was my guess upon further contemplation on the subject. I thought perhaps the slug and cards where sliding around laterally inside the shot cup giving really poor consistency. Regardless I found a load that works suitably in my smooth bore so now just to experiment with the rifled barrel. I have tried slugs in bare wads before and it didn't work at all. Only 1 in 5 or so where on paper and I was finding the wads on the ground with torn off pedals. I have read about people having much better luck with a nitro card in there and wanted to test it. Also on the test list are .685" round balls over cards with buffer under them through both rifled and smooth.

[Chicken Thief]

I have shopped a little and done some samples for this sunday.

Frim left:
12 gauge 1Oz from siarm.com
Another 12 gauge 1Oz from siarm.com
.675" ball in shotcup
.735" ball

All loaded in 76mm hulls and with 40 grains Vv N105
I have developed a theory regarding inaccurasy. If i use 70mm hulls then the ball/bullet and wad coloumn will have to jump at least 6½-7mm to get from hull to forcing cone. That cant be good?
So all my loading is done in 76mm hulls from now on.
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Mossberg/R0011361_zps4be32b1e.jpg

www.siarm.com has a lot of interesting slugs and i intend to buy 10 of almost each and test them in my rifle.
http://www.siarm.com/index.php?cPath=2_20_164_60

They have "wads" for 2 and 3 balls, anybody tried them?
6688566886

[longbow]

Chicken Thief:

Those wads for multi ball look pretty slick!

I haven't tried them but would like to. Do you know what size balls they are for... hmmm, I guess I should try the link you included but if you have any first hand info that would be appreciated.

I just lost my job today so I will have some time to catch up on slug testing, at least until i run out of components and have to buy something. I have enough for a while though so hopefully will get some testing done.

I will be very interested to see how your testing goes too. Interesting looking slugs.

How are your Brennekes doing? I haven't seen any posts in a while.

Longbow

[Chicken Thief]

Yeah those ball "wads" sure look interesting
I dont know the dimensions but i'll order some and then we'll know.

Well ehhhh ummmm Brenneke slugs hmmm.
The dies has died and i dont want to make them again.

When i can buy finished ones (original Brenneke that is) for under $1/piece.
And many interesting designs down to 40 cents a pop.

[longbow]

Chicken Thief:

Are those Brennekes loaded rounds or component slugs? Either way a little pricey for much shooting (I'm cheap).

I haven't seen Brenneke components for many years here (Canada and small town Canada at that).

I like to cast and roll my own both to save money and because it is "fun".

Longbow

[Chicken Thief]

Oh, it's not for mass shooting!
I have .735" balls for plinking and my modified Foster slug for work.
It's pure experimenting and fun.

I brought 5 to the range sunday.
690grain hard cast over 90gr Vv N110.
A QL guestimate says something like 600m/s~1940fps and 7.8kj~5.7kftlbs
Lets just say that our glutton for punishment took all five but he took the last three under protest.
Just vague sighs of pressure on 2 out of 5 cases.

Got a riot shot from a friend. Rubber ball in Cheditte case
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Mossberg/R0011363_zps05f422e5.jpg
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Mossberg/R0011364_zps4437b84f.jpg

Here you can faintly see the umpteen wads of different colour between powder and ball.
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Mossberg/R0011365_zps0acc5170.jpg
Bottom/Left: powder, white wad, black wad, white wad, black wad and finally ball
Put some markings on so it's easier to see.
http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Mossberg/R0011366_zps27f30238.jpg

We talked about speed and he said less tham 100m/s~330fps

Despite it being non lethal noone would put their behind up for a shot http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Blandet/Smilere/***.gif

[Cap'n Morgan]

Interesting slugs, C.Thief. Especially the "vortex" on the left.

I've been doing a small amount of testing with my scoped Krieghoff. Using the machined hard plastic wads I can keep the groups within 4" at 50 meters all day long. I haven't done any long range testing, but common sense tells me the the best I can hope for is 8-10" at a hundred meters and that's a best-case scenario where the slugs follow a linear dispersion pattern.
When I find the time for it I will run some test with machined helical ribbed wads and if it shows signs of improving the groups, it's time for a new mold with helical ribs & some sort of "propeller head". If a baseball can be made to change course (spitball) just by rubbing spit or Vaseline on it, then helical ribs must have some influence on a slug in flight.

Right now I'm working on a thingamabob of some sort, to facilitate the production of paper pulp wads. My main goal is still a "cheap" solution to the slug problem. The accuracy will probably not match the machined wads, but less will still be good enough . "Five in fifty" - that is, a five inch group at fifty yards will be the benchmark I aim for. Pictures to follow...

[longbow]

Cap'n Morgan:

It has been a while! Glad to see you are still at it.

I have been working on new slugs as well and should have some loaded shortly. I will be testing some more copper skirted slugs with modified skirts that hopefully don't tear out the sides of hulls this time (no sharp edges), round balls on copper skirts, some Fosters and some other Brenneke style slugs.

Personally I do not believe that helical ribs produce any significant rotation but that is my opinion. Brenneke claims their ribbed slugs do not rotate but then BPI says the helical vanes on their AQ slugs do cause rotation. I beg to differ because the recovered AQ slugs I got had almost no vanes left after compression in the bore at firing. Also considering that these vanes/ribs are following along in a partial vacuum behind the shockwave. I suspect there is little if any induced rotation. Again, my opinion only. Fact is Brennekes and AQ's and Gualandi slugs all produce very good accuracy however they do it.

Certainly if you can easily machine helical ribs there is no harm in trying, they just might help and any improvement is good. If nothing else they look really good!

I am getting 3" to 4" groups at 50 yards with good round ball loads but not so good at 100 yards ~ round balls do tend to pick up random spins from drag. you may well be right and 4" to 5" 50 yard slug groups might run 8" to 10" at 100 yards but that is not horrible and if the accuracy holds, you should be able to get those 50 yard groups down to at least round ball groups of 3" to 4" so that would be 6" to 8" at 100 yards. I have a friend in new Jersey that has some slugs that give around 2" groups at 50 yards so if that holds to 100 yards we are looking at 4" or maybe a little larger but pretty good at 100 yards.

I could live with that! I just have not accomplished it yet. trying, always trying just not there yet.

Longbow

[Cap'n Morgan]

Did a little shooting today using homemade paper pulp wads together with some 1/4" seal wads (thanks for the Siarm link, C. Thief) I can now state with absolute, 100% certainty that when it comes to Brenneke style slugs, a poor quality wad is far worse than no wad at all! At fifty meters half the shots would miss a 2x2' target:shock: And to make things even worse I didn't pay enough attention to my trusty ol' hunting jacket I was using for rest and blew a nice chunk out of it.

:violin:.

However, every dark cloud has a silver lining. I also loaded five slugs, using the same paper pulp wads, but without attaching them to the slug and this combination gave a nice 6" group at fifty meters. Certainly good enough that I'll explore the concept further - not having to tinker with screws & fixtures would be really nice. I think the reason the pulp wads work well is that they are molded to match the inner profile of the slug, giving it a stable support against slumping during takeoff. The "five in fifty" may well be within reach.

So far I have tried several powder types, from Herco over Blue Dot to Steel, but I'm still getting incomplete burn no matter how hard I crimp/roll the shells. Today it finally dawned on me that I probably should be using magnum primers and not the regular CCI 209 I've been using so far... that means another 100 mile trip. This slug-craze is going to be a costly affair before it's over...[smilie=1:

[longbow]

Hahahahaha! Slug load development costly? Say it isn't so! I have shot hundreds of pounds of lead downrange and absorbed enough accumulated recoil to move a mountain I think. I am still working on trying to get better groups than with the good 'ol round ball. I have burned up pounds of powder and lots of gas going to and from the range too. I try not to think about cost but the "adventure" and "learning experience".

Your "five in fifty" is reasonably easily attainable with round ball and good slug loads. I started out at 8" to 12" groups at 50 yards with the Lyman Foster and worked my way down to 3" to 4" groups at 50 yards with round balls and a few slug loads (NOT Lyman Foster slugs!). My goal was 4" to 6" at 100 yards and round balls from smoothbore just aren't likely to do that. The best of my slug loads might... maybe. I have had AQ slugs produce 6"+/- a bit groups at 100 yards but not home made slugs.

An excellent slug I shot was the Rapine full bore TC hollow base slug. One of few hollow base slugs that has done well for me. I got several 2' to 3" groups at 50 yards but next time out got a flier or two and a keyhole. Go figure ~ same load, same slug, same gun, same range, same shooter.

I will hopefully be testing my best round ball loads and slug loads from 50 yards, 75 yards and 100 yards soon. I know the round balls tend to pick up spin from drag and groups get larger fairly quickly after 50 yards or so but I will find out the maximum range for dependable group size.

Anyway, as for powder, I have had good success with Blue Dot under round balls and slugs as light as 1 oz. and as heavy as 800 grs. I figured there wouldn't be enough resistance to build pressure under a 1 oz slug but no problem so far. The only time I have had noticeable problems with Blue Dot was when I did not use a plastic gas seal, then I got incomplete burn.

Lately though I have been using IMR4756 and it seems to me to be a little better and cleaner than Blue Dot. Not a big difference but I'd say a "sharper" crack and recoil for same weight and velocity of slug so maybe better burn? No complaints with Blue Dot though.

Unique would be a good choice too I think. I have used Unique under Lyman Foster slugs and also AQ slugs. I am a fan of Unique though it isn't best for top end slug loads.

Yes, your pulp wads probably do provide a good support and a bit of cushioning for the slugs since they are nicely form fitting. Good idea. If your slugs are a good fit to the bore (slightly oversize is best I think) they look to be weight forward enough to fly pretty well so you may just have a winner there.

Something you might also try is to add a hot melt glue "skirt" by making a form to put the slug into then add the hot melt glue. Since your slugs are bore size they would either have to be paper patched or glue poured into paper tubes so there is no glue/bore contact. I have tried both and had decent success. These are an AQ type slug. Not sure it would be any better than your machined wads though. They looked great! It is just another option to try. My wad slugs with glue skirts have shown promise and will be tested again. The glue is somewhat flexible and seems to "obturate" in the shotcups probably making for a very good bore fit. Recovered slugs show the petal splits in the glue skirt. In any case, they have been working quite well so far.

Costly affair... you betcha! But it is fun isn't it?

Good luck and don't give up.

Longbow

[Cap'n Morgan]

Longshot,

I'm not quittin' just yet! This has become PERSONAL and there's still a lot of things to try.

I think I'll give your hot glue a try. Have you tried replacing the glue with polypropylene? (what wads are made from) The melting point is about the same as some of the glues. Polypropylene can be re-melted over and over, it should be possible to "cast" it into sticks that would fit a hot glue gun - this would eliminate the need for a wrapper. Also, polypropylene will not stick to a metal surface, making molding much easier. A short dry wall screw in the rear of the slug would act as a strong internal lock between slug & wad.

Sadly, we scrapped an old injection molding machine at work last year. Otherwise I could have made an injection mold for a dedicated slug wad. Hmmm... maybe it was just as well the machine was scrapped, this project is starting to have a life of its own :veryconfu

[longbow]

Cap'n:

I understand the "PERSONAL" aspect of this quest. It has become a challenge to beat the slugs at their own game. Unfortunately the little lumps of lead appear to be somewhat smarter than I am. I haven't been beaten yet and I have had some good successes but not enough. I keep trying. Now to try out the best of what has worked so far.

No I haven't tried polypropylene. I had some hot melt glue that was very much like polypropylene though ~ more plastic like than glue like when hard. I figured it had a percentage of plastic in it and it was very acid resistant when used in sulphuric acid (I was testing it for edge stick adhesion for aluminum cathodes in a zinc plant). I got the left overs and home they went.

What I have now is a high strength hot melt glue that is quite hard and slick when set and it works well but I don't dare let it rub the bore. I have only used it either for wad slugs which I grease before loading or for casting into paper tubes around the slug. Both do work and it eliminates the screw connection. I seem to get better wad integrity with the glue than with add on wads.

Your description of a screw in the butt of the slug is exactly how I make my solid TC slugs with glue skirts. Next revision will have a shallow hollow base to provide more glue area so I an avoid using the screw.

I tried making slugs like AQ's with a 3/8" diameter hole in the slug then cast on glue skirt and some actually broke at the glue "peg" ~ probably at impact but still it made me wonder.

I have had better results with flat based solids with a screw than with the hole and glue "peg".

More testing to be done.

if you have access to polypropylene then that sounds like a good thing to try. I wonder though ~ does it stick to lead if melted and poured on? I suspect it doesn't so would need a very good anchor. Now with your long slugs, tipping is not likely to be a problem so maybe not and issue. Also, you have the hollow base to help support the connection. My solids are quite short and just have the flat base with screw. Recovered slugs generally have the skirt still attached unless they are badly chewed up and the glue seems to stick well. I shot one through an 8" poplar tree and found it in the bank behind with skirt still solidly attached.

Anyway, give that polypropylene a go. Sounds like an interesting idea.

Longbow

[Chicken Thief]

Went to the range today.

The storebought slugs did'nt shoot worth spit!
Patterns that fit a A4 page at 50m
The cupped .675" balls shot a 4" group for 5.
The full bore .735" balls shot into a 2½" group for 5.
And that from my rifled 24" barrel.
Oh, almost forgot 76mm hulls and 40 grains of Vv N105

http://i295.photobucket.com/albums/mm153/Chickenthief/Skydning/Mossberg/R0011361_zps4be32b1e.jpg (http://s295.photobucket.com/user/Chickenthief/media/Skydning/Mossberg/R0011361_zps4be32b1e.jpg.html)

[silas oberhauser]

what about paper blended to a pulp and mixed with elmers glue for sabots/ wads? would it be stronger and less likely to destort? also what if you made a mould similar to a bullet mould full bore with a cavity in the front the size of your bullet? i cant seem to add the picture of what i am talking about but you would use melted plastic bottles to fill the mould with. i have tested this material in and it seems about the right hardness. i t says the picture is to big, i made the picture on paint how do i shrink it?

[longbow]

Silas:

Something I have been using quite successfully is hot melt glue. Of course it cannot rub on the bore or YUK! So, it has to be paper patched/paper tube or a wad slug.

I have gone largely to wad slugs even with round balls because I find them easier to load and easier to get good accuracy with from smoothbore.

My solid slug is somewhat undersize currently as it was originally intended for use in thick steel shotcups. I have to "patch" diameter to snug fit into standard shotcups. I also modified the mould so it has a pin to make a screw starter hole in the base of a nose pour TC style slug. After casting I run a short #10 wood screw in then put the slug in a bored CPVC 1/2" pipe coupling then top up with hot melt glue. This makes a nice uniform attached wad. So far they have been shooting fairly well but I will be modifying the mould by boring the nose portion out to about 0.680" with a reduced shank to suit the taper of shotcup petals. There will be some other modifications to eliminate the screw and give more glue surface.

Accuracy is not as good as I want yet but the slugs are tough and the only time I have lost wads is shooting through a substantial tree and if hitting rocks so the slug is basically destroyed. In fact I recovered some yesterday that I had shot when there was lots of snow on the ground and some from our 100 yard sand berm. All could be loaded and shot again.

I have also made forms to add hot melt glue "skirts" to Lee Drive Key slugs and they shot pretty well giving groups about 4" to 5" at 50 yards. Not quite as good as round ball loads but better than as cast Lee slugs so far.

I will post some photos of my recovered slug collection probably tomorrow.

Your idea of melted plastic bottle has been brought up before and just might work. It should be similar to the hot melt glue but harder and able to rub on the bore. Since I have not melted bottles I am not sure how well it would pour but hot melt glue is pretty thick and it works well so it should be okay. While I am using a CPVC plastic coupling with no problems, I think you would need to use a metal form for melted plastic. Bored out aluminum tubing should work. I just push mine out after they are cool and hard. No split mould required.

Longbow

[Cap'n Morgan]

The Never Ending Story continues...

Iv'e been tinkering with epoxy wads during the last few weeks. A few modifications to the wad mold still remains. The gas seal on recovered slugs indicates blow-by, probably due to the wad being of too small in diameter, I'll probably add a small rim in the wad mold to increase the base diameter, I dare not make the full length wad bore size as I do not know what will happen when a solid epoxy wad passes through the choke constriction.

I tried using a felt wad instead of a gas seal with a dry wall screw as "spine" - the slug looked good, but shot poorly. Apparently nothing but really hard material will work properly, at least that's the conclusion I have reached after several failed tries.

Today I decided to try a few factory made slugs. These were loaded at FN Legia in Belgium but are a carbon copy of the "Original Brenneke". I only had a handful, and had long planned to test them to see if the factory claims of 2" groups at fifty meters had any base in reality. I didn't get the magic two inch group at fifty meters, but I did get a very decent 3" - actually 2-3/4" for four shots. I'm now more convinced than ever that the helical fins on the Brenneke slugs serves a purpose for keeping the slugs on the right track. Of course this means I'll have to abandon the previous design and make a new mold with helical fins :veryconfu This will probably take some time, but I simply must do it in order to preserve my peace of mind [smilie=1:

Stay tuned for updates...

The four holes from the factory slugs are circled with blue. Not bad at all!
http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/8398/img0177vf.jpg

Gas seal & felt wad, combined with epoxy wad:
The gas seal combination shoots okay, but the felt base was a disappointment.
http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/9748/img0178r.jpg

[longbow]

Cap'n Morgan:

Good to see you are still at it! I have my new slugs to test out as well but just haven't had time. maybe this weekend.

Personally I do not believe the helix makes any difference and Brenneke also says the fins/ribs do not cause slug rotation. Brenneke does use a fairly dense fin/rib pattern though and your slugs look to me like there is not enough bearing surface at the ribs. I recovered Brenneke style slugs from my home made mould and some ribs were just about mushed to nothing. My conclusion was not enough bearing surface.

I think fit and alignment in the hull are the most important aspects of keep slugs lined up well and centered in the bore without tipping damage.

In any case, I will be following your progress with interest. I will also post my results when I have some.

Longbow

[somdgunner]

i hear you can load a home made slug in to a regular shotshell by removing the shot and inserting the home made slug in the shot cup. where do i find home made slugs?

[longbow]

Lee Drive Key slugs and probably Lyman sabot slugs can be loaded that way. I think turbo1889 sells a variety of slugs ~ Lyman sabot slug being one.

There must be other sources of ready made Lee Drive Key slugs but I seldom buy commercial slugs because I cast what I want.

You can pick up a Lee Drive Key slug mould in 7/8 or 1 oz. (12 ga.) for about $25.00 and cast as many as you want.

Another option is round balls. they are readily available at Track Of The Wolf:

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/127/3

if your gun is cylinder bore then I recommend 0.672" to 0.678" as being best fits in standard shotcups and also being right about 1 1/8 oz. so easy substitution for 1 1/8 shot load.

If the gun is choked then you have to use a ball/wad combo that will fit through the choke but 0.662" should do it for almost any choke except a full turkey choke.

Also, just to be sure you are aware, when substituting a slug for shot you must use a slug of equal weight (or lighter) to the shot load. While a heavier slug will fit into the same space as a lighter shot charge since it is more dense, the extra weight could cause a nasty pressure increase. 1 oz. shot charge can be replaced with 1 oz. slug, 1 1/8 oz. shot charge can be replaced by 1 1/8 oz. slug, etc. It wouldn't hurt to use a 1 oz. slug to replace a 1 1/8 oz. shot charge though.

If you want slug try turbo1889. Do a search then PM him to find out how to order slugs and what he has.

I hope that helps some.

Longbow

[longbow]

Capn'n Morgan:

My latest results here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?198836-New-Wad-Slug-To-Try/page2

Things are looking promising at this point. I have a bit more mould modification to do then should be where I was headed with this idea. I may vary attached wad length a bit but this seems to be working pretty well.

So far accuracy is close to but not as good as round ball accuracy at 50 yards but should hold up better at longer range ~ to be tested shortly. I will try to tighten my groups a bit more at 50 yards then move out to 100 yards...

Up to now it seems like I have been beating my head against a wall but this time only my shoulder is sore!

Longbow