Alliant Powders - talked with a tech today

[wiljen]

I got the chance to talk to an Alliant tech today about a couple of things.

1.) Alliant 410 - He said it has not been marketed as a magnum handgun powder because pressures climb as temperatures drop. He hinted that Lil'gun behaved that way too but that Hodgdon had chosen to release handgun data for it. He said starting loads for 2400 should be safe with 410 but to watch pressures carefully as maximums were approached and temps drop.

2.) Alliant 20/28 - Was told it is basically the same burn rate as unique but less bulky. So in cases where unique runs out of room before max pressures/velocity is reached it may be a good fit (ie 9mm).

3.) Alliant e3 - can be used with red dot data. I was told the reason it had not been promoted for this was its large grain size made it less than perfect for dillon or other progressive loaders. I was thinking it might be good for cast bullets based on the tech's description "Bulky reddot".

[Dale53]

wiljen;
The above helpful information is why it can be hazardous to interpolate. "Logic" does not always apply. That's why I really like to see pressure data. Hodgdon started giving pressure data many years ago and I have always appreciated that fact.

Many years ago, in a conversation with Bruce Hodgdon explored many possibilities with powders (particularly in magnum handgun loads) that were very helpful to me and kept me and my friends from potential harm when we were tempted to use "logic" when interpolating powder charges. Bruce made himself available at the NRA Conventions and the Amateur Trapshooting Association Grand American for years and was quite forthcoming with information. His pressure equipment was used by E.H. Harrison each weekend for about two years while Harrison was researching cast bullets. Without that cooperation by Hogdon, we would not be where we are today (many, many people who are successful cast bullet shooters from target to game). I miss Bruce more than a little.

FWIW
Dale53

[wiljen]

I just hadn't heard anyone mention seeing that phenomenon with Lil'gun of pressures increasing as temp dropped - thought it might be worth testing this winter. For that matter, I'm more used to temp sensitive powders being pressure increases with temperature.

[Four Fingers of Death]

Pressure climbing as it gets cold seems bass ackward to borrow our esteemed fellow boardie's handle.

Not much of an issue here in australia as our coldest would be in the 10-15 degres Farenheit, but it could be biig problem in he states. Best avoided I'd say.

[9.3X62AL]

I have begun to think most folks here think if the gun goes BANG it is good to go.

Pretty insulting reference. Revise it, or I will.

[Bret4207]

Lil'Gun has sucked in any revolver I have shot it in. Those that swear by it do not know what accuracy and consistancy is. I have begun to think most folks here think if the gun goes BANG it is good to go. I have yet to determine what most guy's definition of accuracy is. Maybe it is just noise and recoil and the low expectations of a revolver.


44 man- Lets remember that each gun is a case unto itself. Just because I haven't had good luck with XXXXXX doesn't mean someone else won't. I agree with Al.

[454PB]

Powder choice and preference is kind of like beer, we don't all agree on what's best. I'm not nearly the marksman that 44man is, but I've had outstanding results with Lil'Gun, and it matches or exceeds my accuracy capabilities with many other powders I use.

[9.3X62AL]

Revised.

[44man]

I was making no accusations against any of you, just what I see at my club and what guys bring here to shoot. All that interests them is lots of noise, as fast as they can make it. It does not matter to them what powder or bullet they have in the gun.
Yes there are those that think like we do but we are a minority in the shooting world. For the few guys that are set up to test and do all the work, there are 100 here just to blast away.
I sold a super accurate SRH to a friend, he comes over and uses my mold but every time he comes to shoot, he has a different amount of powder in his loads or a different powder that I know does not shoot good. I have told him a million times what to use but he never does. I worked very hard to find what the gun likes but he ignores me.
For those of you that get good results with LilGun, I apologize if it sounded wrong to you. I just can't get it to shoot and have more problems then I care to handle with it. It will go where intended, in my .410.

[felix]

I understand your enthusiasm, 44man. Your taking on Lilgun is equivalent to my taking on Ron Paul for president. Any new prospect needs a chance to do its thing before outright rejection. I know what the others can do for sure, but the new kid on the block could very well be just the holy grail when applied to the current application on hand. ... felix

[9.3X62AL]

44 Man--

I see similar occurrences at my club range too, 44 Man. I agree with your observations pretty closely--just the delivery seemed a little blunt, and directed at folks here. If I misunderstood, I'm sorry. I may have, from your follow-up text.

The "blasters" and "plinkers" can be annoying, all right--but as long as safe practices are followed, I'm inclined to let them enjoy themselves. From their ranks come folks like us whose deepened interest prompts research, load testing, and refinement. And they often leave once-fired brass laying around, too. With the state of the shooting sports in this country today, we need as many people shooting as we can get--and undue criticism will beget discouragement and foster resentment. Can't have that. SAFETY IS PARAMOUNT--but other than that, I just let 'em go. Being a "killjoy" could really bite us on the aspirations--I know I resent the hell out of the trap shooters at my club who look down their noses at people shooting military-pattern semi-auto rifles. I don't own any (now), but the trap guys calling the AR-15 folks "the cause of the problem" within the gun rights question REALLY chaps my hide.

As for powder preferences, there are more to choose from than 10-15 years ago, and MANY more than were available when my reloading "hobby" transitioned to more serious work about 30 years ago. New people in the hobby are likely bewildered by this array of choices....sometimes I am, too. Almost all of the powders I use today were available when I started out, so I guess I'm not prone to blazing new fuel trails unless a pretty good consensus of hobbyists confirm positive results in a range of applications. I tend to not want caliber-specific powders, unless no other fuel will do the trick. SR-4756 in 32-20 revolver ammo is one exception to that rule, but they are few.

Never say "never", never say "always".

[Lloyd Smale]

my appologys to the lilgun users to but its never impressed me. Only thing ive really got exceptional luck in with it is the 32mag and 3220 and even in them aa9 wc820 and 4227 and 110 are just as good. I use it in the 32s because ive got about 10lbs of it to burn up. I fell into the have to use it group when it first came out.
I was making no accusations against any of you, just what I see at my club and what guys bring here to shoot. All that interests them is lots of noise, as fast as they can make it. It does not matter to them what powder or bullet they have in the gun.
Yes there are those that think like we do but we are a minority in the shooting world. For the few guys that are set up to test and do all the work, there are 100 here just to blast away.
I sold a super accurate SRH to a friend, he comes over and uses my mold but every time he comes to shoot, he has a different amount of powder in his loads or a different powder that I know does not shoot good. I have told him a million times what to use but he never does. I worked very hard to find what the gun likes but he ignores me.
For those of you that get good results with LilGun, I apologize if it sounded wrong to you. I just can't get it to shoot and have more problems then I care to handle with it. It will go where intended, in my .410.

[9.3X62AL]

Lloyd--

What is the strength rating of the 32-20's you have that do good work with Lil'Gun and the other slow powders? And--what intensity level gets good results with them?

[1Shirt]

Maybe I got it all wrong, but Lil'gun proved to be heat sensitive in my K-Hornet. When I kept my loaded ammo in a cold cooler while p-dog shooting on a hot day, it did ok. However, after popping a couple of primers with the stuff, have settled one hundred percent on H-110 for the K, and will not buy Lil'gun again. When I talked with the Hogden rep, about this he said that he had not had results similar to mine reported.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[44man]

Thank you for your understanding. I NEVER get down on any of you guys. PLEASE never take me wrong! I only consider all the other things I see, not what you do here. Some of you have good luck with stuff I never get to work. I am very sorry if some things I say sound like they are directed toward someone, THEY ARE NOT!
I only say what I see and do and it is going to be hard to change me, I am too old and crotchety to change my opinions. Do not take it personal.

[Lloyd Smale]

its a 92 rossi that reggie nonaman built in 3220 with an oct barrel. Loads are pretty hot. I wont post them here but it shoots a 120 lbt lfngc at 2000 fps and basicaly shoots one hole at 50 yards if im having a good day. I use cci small rifle primers and they show no
signs of pressure but its definaltely a top end load and i wouldnt put them in a revolver. .
Lloyd--

What is the strength rating of the 32-20's you have that do good work with Lil'Gun and the other slow powders? And--what intensity level gets good results with them?

[35remington]

Al, Beagle once mentioned in passing that 'Lilgun made a pretty good .25-20 powder, and I have found that to be true, down to levels where I was propelling a 80-85 grain lead bullet as low as 1500 fps. It does well at 1900 fps with 75-80's, and it is surprisingly position insensitive in the .25-20 case.

Can't say that about most powders in the .25-20.

[Dale53]

I don't want to steal this thread (I have no experience with "Lil gun") but you DID mention 25/20. For high velocity with the Lyman 257420 GC, you cannot beat RL-7. In strong guns (mine is a modern Marlin Lever Action) 14.5 grs will give you close to 2200 fps with "X" ring accuracy at fifty yards (NRA smallbore target). This is a compressed load (no fillers, etc) and 11.0 grs makes a fine "Medium" load. For squirrels, I use 4.0 Unique (no filler). All three loads shoot with equal accuracy in my rifle and serve three distinct purposes.

I truly believe the squirrel load represents the best squirrel medicine out there, bar none.

Understand, that this year I'll be using my .32 H&R TC Carbine with appropriate loads and we'll see how it stacks up (just for accademic purposes, you understand:mrgreen:) .

Now, back to "Lil Gun"...

Dale53

[Bret4207]

I'll try to find my load data for Lil Gun in the 32WCF, 218 Bee and I think maybe 25WCF. I got good accuracy, great velocity and low pressure. The big BUT is it was jacketed in the 218 and 25WCF. I'll look it up this weekend if I can.

There are other powders that do similar to Lil Gin, but sometimes we have to use whats on hand for various reasons. I used 4320 in 6.5x55 for years because I had several pounds and what I thought was a good load. When I ran onto R22 I forgot all about 4320 the R22 was so much better. Thing is the 4320 worked great for 15 -20 years. 1" or 5/8" doesn't mean much to deer.

[9.3X62AL]

OK, Lloyd--RIFLES. Got it.

I'll stray to respond to the 25-20 texts. RL-7 and IMR-4198 have done pretty well with castings in my Marlin 94CL, and 4198 is LIGHTS OUT ACCURATE with the Speer 75 flatnose. I still think there is room for improvement with the castings, though. Lil' Gun could be the key to the castle. I do have some of those squirrel loads (4.0 x Unique/RCBS 85 CB) assembled, no range time with them yet.

Bret, that 32-20 data would be interesting to me.

[ebg3]

I've been using e3 for loading 9mm and .40 S&W. I guess I've used 12lbs or so over the last year. Works great and is pretty clean. I actually sent some loaded ammo to Alliant for pressure testing; Load was 4.5grs e3 under a 180gr Zero jhp and seated to 1.20" OAL. Produced 34,500psi and around 950fps. This is my USPSA major match load. I still don't think Alliant lists e3 as a pistol powder.
EG

[machinisttx]

I posted my results with Lil' Gun a while back. I might try it in .44 mag or .45 Colt, but I can't say that I expect it to fare any better. Not impressed with it at all.

[Frozone]

I'm giving it a 'shot' in my .454 as soon as the snow lets up.

Lil'Gun is a standard powder in the Beowulf/AR15 package.
AA didn't like to low temp ignition characteristics of H110, Now I'm not sure it's an Improvement!!

I was surprised by the cold/pressure thing! That is good info for up here.
Did Alliant provide have any info on how much delta to expect??

[Catshooter]

On the subject of cold temps raising pressures, I could speak briefly.

I am working up a load for one of my .45 sixguns. I shot 7.8 grains of HS-6 in it about three months ago (before winter started here) and got an average of 856 fps.

This moring I shot 7.9 grains and got an average of 955. The only change is that these shot today spent the night outside last night, got down to about 20 degrees or so. The boolit is a Lyman 454424 in three parts lead to one part WW.

Interesting.


Cat

[BD]

I've had good luck with LilGun in the .450Bushmaster for jacketed loads. In fact it's the reloader's "gold standard" for that round. No luck with cast though. H110 and WC 297 do much better behind boolits, and run much cooler. I have not seen the pressure increase at low temps either, unless somehow the pressures go up with out a coressponding increase in velocity?
BD

[Bucks Owin]

I don't have extensive experience with LilGun but I did burn a pound of it a couple years back. Like others, I was enamoured with the data Hodgdon printed regarding it's use in the .357 mag. As I remember, in a 10" pressure barrel, 18 grs was supposed to do 1500+ fps with a 158 gr at only 28K pressure or somewhere in that range. (I don't have the data in front of me) I thought it would be the perfect powder for a S&W M-19 so as to not beat up the gun while still getting good velocities. Well, 18 grs in my 6" M19 barely cracked 1300 and SD/ES didn't look good. Satisfied, after several hundred rds, that it wasn't the "be all, end all" of .357 powders, I used the rest up in .44 mag loads where I thought it inferior to W-296. Velocity was no greater and again, I didn't find it especially uniform. Tried mag and std primers. Then when I read about it being extremely rough on forcing cones due to heat issues, I kinda gave up on LG. Since I don't have a .410 or a Hornet (where it's supposed to also work wonders) I doubt I'll buy any more of it any time soon, and will stick with 110/296. Apparently, others have had better results with LG, but I've not seen their chrono printouts. Makes me wonder if it's really as good as some may think!.....FWIW, Dennis (PS: As I remember, I DID get what I thought was excessive muzzleblast and flame with LG. Anybody else notice that?)

[truckmsl]

Sometimes I shoot serious, sometimes I'm a "blaster and plinker". It's all great fun and I am always mystified why there are those who insist on looking down on others who share the same interests.

[Vance in Ak]

Well I'll start by saying that most folks here have vastly more experience than I do, BUT, I have to say that so far Lil Gun has been the clear performer in my limited testing of 400gr Lee bullets in my SRH in 480 Ruger.
It has used less powder to give higher velocity with better accuracy & lower deviations than H-110.
I'm not going for max velocity, but do want reasonable & Lil Gun is giving 1167 (as I recall) with 20gr (midway betwen Hodgons listed min - max) while 20gr of H-110 only gave me a little over 900fps with standard primers & under 900 with federal mag (Weird). Recoil was only slightly greater, & the the change was negligable considering the velocity increase.
I'll be the 1st to admit that I'm not a great shot, not really even a good one.
With my 4moa red dot at 50 yds I'm getting about 2.5" with the Lil Gun from a rest. Not great compared to most of you guys (heck, most guys on the net can do that offhand @ 100yds with iron sights!), but a third smaller than the best with H-110 (I did try heavier loads if H-110 with 370 bullets with similar results & greater recoil. Velocities were less with the 370 than with the 400 & Lil Gun).
I don't have a huge selection of powders locally (nor the cash to buy one of everything) so my testing is limited. It's been a while since I've done much with handguns so hopefully I will improve :-) Good thing I live in Alaska where the targets are bigger!
Sorry for rambling.

[leadman]

I have used Lil'Gun in the 44 mag., but it did not shine there. It does a super job in my 41 magnum though! 17.8 grs, WLP, 220gr. Saeco TC, 1,360 fps, consistently 2" or less at 100 yards.

Does a very good job in the 357 mag. with 180 gr. boolits.

[ebg3]

I worked up a very accurate load using Lil'gun and the 310gr GC Lee bullet going 1400fps in my 7.5" SBH. I was really surprised to get that much velocity out of this combo. Now I'm a little worried about the erosion problems I've read about using Lil'gun. I do have a fair amount of cutting on my topstrap but I can't blame all of that on Lil'gun.

[pmeisel]

This thread illustrates one of the reasons I really like this board..... I don't have to do every learning experiment myself, I can get a lot of mileage out of what a number of others have done. Based on these reports, I'll probably never try Lil'Gun.... but I have managed a long time on mostly Unique, 2400, H110, and 4227.....

[pmeisel]

Tripped on this thread while searching for something else... but I have an update. A fellow board member who I respect from reading his work elsewhere highly recommends Lil Gun in the 357... so I bought a pound and will try it.

[leadman]

pmeisel, I found it worked better with the 180gr bullets in the 357 as opposed to the 158gr and lighter.

[kelbro]

I had good luck with LilGun in 357 using 158gr XTPs. Just got a 180gr mold and plan to try it there as soon as I can cast some. Also trying some tomorrow behind some 75gr Speers in a 25-20.

[45r]

I've tried LIL gun and it gave good velocity and accuracy in 357,41mag and very good velocity in 454 casull.It is not the best for high volume shooting due to the erosion and heat issues but for top velocity in a hunting load that you will only shoot once or maybe a few more follow up shots it works.I got higher velocity with 180 grain boolits or higher in 357,255 grain in 41 mag and 300grain and higher in 454 casull than 296,H-110.I've found it to shoot up 150 fps faster than 296 in my 454 with 3 inch groups at 75 yards using my MM 315GC boolits.It likes to be near max like 296.Its not perfect but it can be used for good hunting loads.My Marlin 357CB shoots 180XTP J-words into a ragged hole at 60yards with 15.5 lil gun and the velocity is higher than 296,whats not to like.

[Tom W.]

To beat an old horse, I bought a can when I got my .454 Encore barrel. I found a load that is pretty accurate with the Lee 300 gr boolit, and some really great accuracy from some RCBS 300 gr SWC boolits that a Gent in Alaska sent me. I also loaded up a box of .44 mags with the 310 grain Lee boolit, as well as some of the 300 gr, for my .45 Colt.
I'll stick to Herco and the RCBS 270 SAA booilt in my .45 Colt, and when I run out of the Lil' Gun, I'll go back to H110..

[gon2shoot]

I bought a couple pounds of Lil gun, and only found one High end 45 load that worked well. Since I dont care to run my guns at max all the time, I happily returned to my proven load of 2400.

The 44 loads were not much better, although I was playing with different primers and didn't give it a real good test.

[jandbn]

I've never used LG as I'm an H110 fan, but but it seems the "affinity" I've read about LG over the last couple years here on CB and a few other websites is that LG seems to be give better velociy when compared to W296/H110 using the heavy weights for caliber such as 180gr/357 Mag, 300gr/.44 Mag, 330gr/45 Colt. But maybe I haven't read enough about LG and that "affinity" hasn't panned out.