223 wildcat

[ckrockets]

I was thinking about developing this 223 wildcat round.

Its main purpose would be a for cheap practice round using plated 30 carbine bullets pushing them around 1800 fps.

A load for jacked bullets could be developed which could be 2500 fps + I imagine.

Possible names: 300X45, 30 Super Carbine

For heavier bullets you could use projectiles developed for the 30-30.

Comments?

60910

[Doc Highwall]

I think it is to close to the 300 Black Out.

[ckrockets]

ummm...

300blackout = 7.62X35 (using 5.56 donor case)

what i'm proposing = 7.62X45 (using 5.56 donor case)

more case capacity means less pressure for the same load so one can up the powder charge increasing velocity

[JIMinPHX]

I think that this has been done in 7mm, 7.62 & even 8mm. I don't believe that it ever really caught on, but I can't understand why. I think that this conversion makes a lot of sense.

Personally, I'd like to do the same thing in 6.5mm with a 130-gr boolit. I think that it would make for a nice little low-recoil round for game up to small deer & be very powder efficient to boot.

If .30 cal trips your trigger, then stick with .30. It should be a fun little play toy.

[DeanWinchester]

Sticking to the "nothing new under the sun"

7,62x40 Wilson Tactical. Wilson Combat already made the "300 BLK Long"



....also, the Czechs already made a 7,62x45 many moons ago.

[texassako]

Are you stuck on that case size? Wildcat and cheap usually do not go hand in hand. 7.62x39 has a little more capacity than what you propose and about the same ballistics. You might want to seat one of those heavier bullet to see how long it ends up being as well.

[MT Gianni]

I am not sure that it would do more than the 7mmTCU which has readily available dies and data.

[ckrockets]

the 7.62X45 czech is basically a 7.62x39 Russian case lengthened...oranges and apples

what I'm proposing is a 5.56X45 case sized up to fit 7.62 projectile with a high cannelure/ogive(such as 30 carbine and 30-30 projectiles)...so they still fit and function in 5.56 magazines...did you pay attention to the mockup pic i posted?

so my proposed 7.62X45 should out perform the 7.62X40wt...

[uscra112]

First of all it has already been done numerous times. The only successful one is the .300 Blackout. Second that case shape will always have serious headspace problems because it lacks a decent shoulder. Some have tried headspacing on the case mouth when stretching that case for large bullets, but that has its' own problems, which could be quite serious. At the very least, if you pursue it, it needs a very sharp shoulder. Look at the .35 Whelen Ackley Improved for guidance.

[EMC45]

Get a Blackout upper and ream it longer and BAM! You got what you're aiming for. (In theory)

[john hayslip]

I just loaded a few blackouts with a round nose bullet with a soft point similar to the one in the picture on the left and tried to shoot it but the bullet apparently jammed in the leade and wouldn't allow the bolt to fully close. Could hear the firing pin click but no indent on primer. Going to have to trouble shoot today - I have some pointedy 110 grain bullets and will substitute them and see if that is in truth the problem. If not I'll check the shoulder length but I'm pretty sure that's correct.

[longbow]

It has been done a long time ago.

I have an article by Roy Dunlap (IIRC) on the .30 Apache which is simply the .223 necked up to .30 cal. Also .30-223 was an early entry into metallic silhouette shooting according to Elgin gates.

So, yeah, nothing new under the sun is right. Not a bad idea though and I am a bit surprised it didn't catch on as an economical .30-30 level round using surplus brass. It should be easy to load up supersonic to decent ballistics and down to subsonic without much trouble. I have thought about it myself.

As mentioned though, nowadays there is so much 7.62 x 39 around it is easier to use that.

Longbow

[oldred]

I think the days for creating something truly new are long gone, not saying that a different wildcat can't be done but there is just so much over-lap from so many efforts both past and present it's almost impossible to create anything different enough to be worth the trouble and expense. The exception might be the "sub" calibers of 20 caliber and smaller but everything else has been done in just about every imaginable way, still doing something unique is fun even if it only closely duplicates another similar round and after all fun is what this is all about.

[357maximum]

30TCU, and 8mmTCU have been successfully used in single shots and bolt guns. Do not let that "shoulder thing" bother you. Those that can pay attention have no issue with them. Most them people that have problems with minimal shoulders..... simply have S.D.A.D.....sizing die adjustment disorder. The same souls also have issue with the 30/35Herrets, the 30/30 and the 35 remington in contenders, and the Whelen's in bolt guns......some people just cannot be made to pay attention enough to properly adjust a sizing die enough to make the brass match the steel in THEIR GUN.


Not to knock the good idea fairy but in this case I would point you to the 7TCU....much cheaper to build/buy. I run mine at 2512 fps with a 135grain cast boolit with M.O.A or less accuracy, and it sure kills deer dead.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?171783-7mmTHOR-7TCU-Carbine-Venison

[dk17hmr]

.......so my proposed 7.62X45 should out perform the 7.62X40wt...

It has the potential to out perform with lighter bullets but with heavier bullets I think your case capacity would be the same or close to the same. The down side there is to get your bullets to work in an AR15 (assuming that's what this is for) magazine your limited on length, in your case a heavier bullet would likely be seated deeper than the ogive though, but like you say 30 carbine bullets would be the bullet of choice anyways. I have a couple wildcats based on the 223 case and really like them, they do what I want them to and give amazing velocity for the little bit of powder you have to use.

[Reverend Al]

I remember reading that article in Gun Digest about the .30 Apache wildcat (can't remember when it was published, but it might have been in the 1970's?), which worked out very well for Silhouette Rifle with bullets as heavy as 168 grains! He built his test gun on an old 788 Remington that started life as .222 Remington. If you can find the GD article you might want to look through it for some ideas on your possible project gun?

[ckrockets]

Could you scan and post the article? Thanks.




I have an article by Roy Dunlap (IIRC) on the .30 Apache which is simply the .223 necked up to .30 cal. Also .30-223 was an early entry into metallic silhouette shooting according to Elgin gates.

[barkerwc4362]

I have an AR in 7.62x40 and a case length of about 40mm is the max for .30 if you are going to use the AR format. Magazine length cartridges with bullets longer than about 135 grs push the bullet way down in the case and put the ogive up in the neck. That reduces case capacity and cause problems with neck tension. I played around with making a slightly longer case (about 42mm) trying to get a little more performance out of the 5.56 case with 125 - 135gr bullets, but gave up. The case neck needs to be positioned at the full diameter part of the bullet to ensure good neck tension and to retain the bullet without crimping. Get an AR magazine and adjust the case length and you will see what I mean. Oh and I use AA-1680 to get max velocities at reasonable pressures.

Bill

[longbow]

Here you go

[TCLouis]

JIMinPHX

I think they refer to your wish as 6.5 TCU

[300blk]

I think that this has been done in 7mm, 7.62 & even 8mm. I don't believe that it ever really caught on, but I can't understand why. I think that this conversion makes a lot of sense.

Personally, I'd like to do the same thing in 6.5mm with a 130-gr boolit. I think that it would make for a nice little low-recoil round for game up to small deer & be very powder efficient to boot.

If .30 cal trips your trigger, then stick with .30. It should be a fun little play toy.

You may have some interest in the 6.5 patriot
http://illirianengineeringc.ipage.com/65mm--68mm-pcc-pics-video-clips-charts-load-data-email-80-build-info-ar-15--dpms-lr-308-pattern-blueprints.html

[bruce drake]

I've pulled the lever on a 30-223 PTG Reamer so when it comes in, I'll recut the chamber on my 20" 300BLK AR15 upper to see how everything works out. It will be a while before it comes in but I wanted folks to know that I'll be running this experiment down to operate with 115gr #311359 (gas-check spire point) and 130gr #311410 (spire point-bevel base) boolits along with jacketed 110gr, 125gr bullets.

I'll return to this thread as things move along on this project.

Bruce

[KLR]

I've pulled the lever on a 30-223 PTG Reamer so when it comes in, I'll recut the chamber on my 20" 300BLK AR15 upper to see how everything works out. It will be a while before it comes in but I wanted folks to know that I'll be running this experiment down to operate with 115gr #311359 (gas-check spire point) and 130gr #311410 (spire point-bevel base) boolits along with jacketed 110gr, 125gr bullets.

I'll return to this thread as things move along on this project.

Bruce

Sounds interesting. I just got a Handi rifle in 300 BO and wondered about this modification.

[bruce drake]

Its on backorder which means that Midway will have to place the order with PTG and then ship it to me when it comes in. Currently expected in stock on 3/27 but those backorder dates have shifted in the past on other items. But they did offer the reamer at $25 less than going direct to PTG.

Bruce

[SSGOldfart]

I was thinking about developing this 223 wildcat round.

Its main purpose would be a for cheap practice round using plated 30 carbine bullets pushing them around 1800 fps.

A load for jacked bullets could be developed which could be 2500 fps + I imagine.

Possible names: 300X45, 30 Super Carbine

For heavier bullets you could use projectiles developed for the 30-30.

Comments?

60910
what ever flotes your boat I guess that's why they call them wildcats if it wasn't for somebody's ideal we wouldn't have half of the rounds we do now,but for your info Tom Beall of El Paso, Texas shot the first IHMSA 40 round match ever fired with the .30/.223 cartridge essentially a .223 military case expanded to .30 caliber. a host of other cartridge have seen been developed on the basic .223 and .222 cases
Elgin Gates started with the 7mm at the same time ,picking up where the benchrest shooters left off and came up with a shorten 7.62mm case with a new shoulder angle,taper and neck length to produce a cartridge with which he would set the Unlimited record of 38x40 on may 14,1977. So if either had said forget it because somebody might have done it in the past we may not have either cartridge now guess I'll get off my soap box for now anyhow...... gook luck and please keep us informed as to haw your cartridge turnsout. always room for another

[bruce drake]

30 Apache dummy-loads with various bullet weights

These dummy loads were built by necking up .223 Rem cases up in two stages. 5.56 to 6.5 and then 6.5 to 30 cal with a .223 Rem shellholder and a 260 Rem sizer and then I used a 300 Blackout sizer and seater die moved back .4" and .75" respectively to allow for the neck up without moving the shoulder back and then the proper seating of the 30 caliber bullet in the neck of the new 30-223 (30 Apache) case. CH4D Dies makes the proper 30-223 dies and its the next purchase after the reamer and headspace gauges are purchased and delivered. I'm just happy that all those dies on the shelf above my bench are "multi-purpose" now ;)
133301
From Left to Right with the bullet to the left of the loaded cartridge to give you an idea of how deep the bullets are seated in the 30-223 case.
LEE 93gr flat-base Round Nose; Hornady 110gr Jacketed Round Nose; Ideal 311359 120gr Spitzer gas check; Hornady 123gr FMJ; LEE 155gr Spitzer.

All were loaded to max magazine length for AR usage. A note to the reader of this post, you will not be able to use aluminum or steel magazines unless you remove the front rib of the magazine as the bigger cartridge neck needs the space to properly feed without binding on that front rib. I may purchase a couple of those polymer P-Mags and grind out the front rib to allow more than 5 rounds at least to feed. In the meantime, I might cut out the rib of an aluminum magazine as a test run as well. I know I have enough of them to experiment with.

Update on the PTG reamer: Midway has bumped up the delivery date of the reamer by a week so perhaps I might get the test barrel re-cut before Mid-April.

Well, until the next update!

Bruce

[MikeBitzenburger]

I think the 30APACHE/30TCU would be an excellent round in a rebored 223HANDIRIFLE.

[bruce drake]

Or a 300BLK Handi with a new chamber cut.

[bruce drake]

Ok folks,


Got into the garage this evening and did a little rib trimming on an aluminum AR15 magazine with a dremel and a file. For my second magazine, I'll probably cut the windows a bit smaller than what I did with this prototype. The picture shows the magazine loaded with five 30-223 dummy rounds.

So far, I've been able to load these 5 dummy rounds and then ten more 5.56 cartridges on top of them before the magazine follower cleared the new window on the side of the magazine. So this magazine can load up 15 of the wildcat cartridges but since I intend to run this as a 5/5 Match rifle in rapid fire stages or in use as a light deer rifle, its fine for what it will be :)

Now its a matter of just waiting for the reamer to come in off back order and schedule a time to set down and slowly hand-cut a new chamber.



But at least I know I have one potentially modified magazine ready for the test run.


Bruce

[bruce drake]

You may have some interest in the 6.5 patriot
http://illirianengineeringc.ipage.com/65mm--68mm-pcc-pics-video-clips-charts-load-data-email-80-build-info-ar-15--dpms-lr-308-pattern-blueprints.html

Thanks but I already own a 6.5 Grendel in an AR15 so perhaps in a few years I'll look at that cartridge although the 6.5 TCU is more of a temptation to me at the moment since the dies and reamers are SAAMI and a bit more available. The new 25-45 Sharps cartridge might actually be my next AR Upper after this project is completed.

[bruce drake]

The PTG Reamer has shipped from Midway so I may have something more to say about this wildcat later this month.

Bruce

[bruce drake]

If others are interested, CH-4D Dies has several of these die sets are in stock. I just purchased my set today and should ship on Monday according to the very nice lady there in Ohio. The price on these custom dies is very affordable for a 2 die set. $83.20 plus shipping

http://www.ch4d.com/products/dies/caliber-list?filter-col=caliber&filter=30-223

Bruce

The die set I ordered is the first one on the list at the link. I'm not planning to try any of the improved chamberings but she has them as well.

[KLR]

Bruce - Thanks for the update. It will be interesting to see how it runs in your AR.
Do you have a chronograph, and if so, do you plan on loading some full-powered loads to see what this case will get you over the 300 BO? There is a guy on the GBO Handi forum that just finished building a single shot with that same reamer you have but he is loading mild loads that use less powder than I've used in my 300 BO Handi. I'd really like to see what this cartridge is capable of.

[bruce drake]

I do own a chrono and I intend to test the differences as well. I'd like to get a couple of hundred fps over the 300BLK with this cartridge. I like the idea of being able to use slower powders than what 300BLK requires. My goal is to be able to use typical medium speed powders

[KLR]

Sounds like a good plan. That would put it close to 30-30 territory.

[bruce drake]

I'm hoping it will make it a decent 300 yard shooter with 125gr bullets. I'd like to try it out on a NRA Highpower rifle match. I used the same upper last year in a 100 yard match with the 300BLK bullet and it did pretty good.

Bruce

[bruce drake]

I rechambered my 300BLK AR upper to 30-223 tonight. Boy, I was sweating the cut! But it works out with the 223 Rem headspace gauges. Now its a matter of waiting for the dies to come in and load some test loads.

[KLR]

Did you ream it by hand?

[bruce drake]

Yes, by hand and with a lot of pauses for cleaning the chamber and measuring. This is probably my 10th rifle I've rechambered this way but each one raises the tension until the headspace gauge passes the cut.

I plan to start with 7TCU load data out of the Sierra Manual for equivalent weight bullets. As I've stated before, I intend to mostly shoot 110gr and 125gr bullets As the OAL for 150gr places the bullet pretty far down into the cartridge taking up valuable powder space.


So I think this wildcat will be sedately brought out into the realm of shooting 200-300 yard NRA highpower matches probably over the next couple of years.

[LynC2]

Good luck Bruce with the 30/223, it should be a neat ctg. I know you don't have a lot of room left over in an AR magazine for the bullet with a full length .223 case. A few months ago I had ordered a reamer for it from Midway and after waiting over 2 1/2 months for it I cancelled the order and bought a 7mm TCU reamer they had on sale to make my bolt action silhouette rifle. Nobade used a .223 Ackley reamer and .30 cal throater to make an improved version of it that he is happy with. Both the 7 & 30 TCU work very well for our cast bullet silhouette matches.
I bought a 20" 7.62x40WT barrel a couple of years ago for my AR-15. It shoots very well and allows bullets up to 155 grs loaded to mag length but seems to do very well with the 110 and 125 gr bullets also. I had planned to shoot it in our 100 yd high power matches also, but haven't shot one of those matches in a couple of years now. Maybe I'll try it out this year.
Keep us updated with your project.

[bruce drake]

Thanks, I will try to keep the thread updated. The next major update should be range results from first batch of test loads.

I considered rechambering the barrel to 7.62x40WT but the tradeoffs in case prep time versus powder space versus bullet selection just lead me to deciding that for most of the applications for this rifle, a 125gr bullet is more than big enough to do the work needed and then I'm personally tired of dealing with case prep for the 300BLK. trimming 10mm off and reforming are few more steps than just reforming... ;) the 7.62x40WT requires the same amount of prep time but just cutting 5mm off from the parent case (223 Rem).

I had a fun time shooting this upper in 300BLK at a 100 yard match using 147gr FMJs. I'll test these same FMJs later to see if they work with this new cartridge.

[LynC2]

Bruce I would imagine you should be good with the 7.62x40WT load data since yours is a larger capacity case.

[bruce drake]

Good call. I've got some AA1680 and some 110gr and 125gr spitzer jacketed bullets to try it. At the Wilson site they give 23gr at a start and 25gr max (2269fps/2534fps) for the 110gr spire point.

The Dies came in today and I've built starter loads at 21gr, 22gr, and 23gr to see what they do. Now that being said, those are jacketed loads. tomorrow, I plan to build some cast loads using Varget and the 120gr 311359 Lyman mold boolit.

Bruce

[bruce drake]

Family Life took precedence this weekend. Took the youngest boy out to zero his AR15 for this weekend's NRA Highpower match and forgot the ammo for the 30 Apache upper on the bench at the house 45 miles away...The boy got his zeros but the range testing and chrono work I had planned will have to wait for sometime later.

Bruce

[bruce drake]

Initial Range Testing with the pistol length gas system and 7.62x40 load data over 110gr RN bullets. It works but primers were flattened and the bolt carrier group got shoved back too fast and peened a chip out of the bolt head.

Fast forward to last month.
New bolt, carbine length pigtail gas tube and an H3 buffer (5.4oz versus 3.0) installed in the carbine has tamed the recoil and primer issues. Now it fires the 110gr RN and 125gr Spitzers over 24gr of AA1680 (~2400fps/~2300fps with the 110 and 125gr bullets) without any issues. This is 7.62x40WT load data so I probably could up it if I needed to but the velocity and the accuracy of the load is just fine that I won't change this one. The 125gr bullets are nearly the same speed as their equivalent 30-30 loadings.

Bruce

[KLR]

Update with my results:

I reamed a H&R Handi rifle AAC 300 Blackout model to 30-223. Using Accurate 1680 I worked up a load that produced 2609 fps with a 110gr Hornady VMax at about the point pressure signs were beginning to appear. Then I switched to a 130gr Speer jacketed FN bullet and got to 2372 fps before I ran out of daylight. Looking at the primer I think I'm nearing the limit there too. 2400 fps is possible, but it will likely be a little too hot.

Not bad for a 16" barrel with a 1:7 twist. That puts it in 30-30 territory.

I still have accuracy testing to do, but this answered my question about how much I could get out of this rifle/cartridge.

So:

Pros:
* Cheap brass and easy to form.
* Gained about 200 additional fps over the 300 BO.


Cons:
* Brass has a thin neck - easy to crumple when seating a bullet if you're not careful.
* Thin brass at the shoulder makes it easy to set back the shoulder firing reduced loads in a Handi rifle. I began to have misfires with the third firing. (No problem with full power loads.)

So now I want to try this in a bolt action rifle with a slow twist, 22" barrel, and .223-sized mini action.

[SSGOldfart]

It has been done a long time ago.

I have an article by Roy Dunlap (IIRC) on the .30 Apache which is simply the .223 necked up to .30 cal. Also .30-223 was an early entry into metallic silhouette shooting according to Elgin gates.

So, yeah, nothing new under the sun is right. Not a bad idea though and I am a bit surprised it didn't catch on as an economical .30-30 level round using surplus brass. It should be easy to load up supersonic to decent ballistics and down to subsonic without much trouble. I have thought about it myself.

As mentioned though, nowadays there is so much 7.62 x 39 around it is easier to use that.

Longbow
Yep and I think Gates tried to use the xp-100 platform for his 30-223R I played with the 243w-223 myself but the well ran dry(life got in the way I still think the 223/5.56 neck up to 243/6mm would be a better route myself,fast with out the recoil until you get into to heavier bullets,I'm working on a light weight 243 Winchester load now with a 46gr GC Boolit.
I'm wanting to push it about 1600or 1700 fps,cast up a second 1000 rounds this morning,but I'm kinda thinking I should have made this bullet a HP instead of a flat Nose for squirrel hunting
Sorry Didn't mean to Hi-Jack your thread

[BAGTIC]

One can push .30 carbine bullets to more than 1800 fps in the .30 carbine case at the lower carbine pressures. It might be possible to get 2,500 fps with a 110 grain carbine bullet but why? Would be better off with a 125-130 grain at 2,300+. If you are shooting an autoloader you will be spending a lot of time chasing brass and forming new replacements.

[bruce drake]

Well...I've been using the newer 110gr Spirepoints from Hornady and I feel they are built a bit sturdier than the 110gr RN when I need to use jacketed. I shoot the 110gr RN as plinkers mostly and not at the same speed as the Spirepoints. the spirepoints are very effective on coyotes and porcupines in my experiences in the field.

[CENTEX BILL]

What about using the new 22 Nosler case necked up to 30 caliber. Would it be worth it?

Centex Bill

[oldblinddog]

What about using the new 22 Nosler case necked up to 30 caliber. Would it be worth it?

Centex Bill

that would be a .30 Remington with a rebated rim.

[Nobade]

Use 30 Herret dies to load it. Wouldn't be a bad thing.

[brstevns]

Any new updates on the 30-223 ?