405 gr Hollow Base Lee

[rexherring]

Anyone use this mold. Looks to be a fairly nice design with larger lube grooves. I assume that it's intended for BP but how about lower pressure / velocity smokeless?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/200890655681?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

[45 2.1]

It's a very good boolit. Cast it no harder than 30:1, lube and size to 0.462 with a very soft lube and load in front of 20 gr. of SR4759. Quite a nicely accurate low powered load.

[Bullshop]

It is the result of research don by Spence and Pat Wolf to duplicate one of the original arcenal design for the 45/70 TrapDoor.

[Maven]

It has worked well for me when cast of WW's + 1%Sn or nominally pure Pb with both BP or smokeless loads. I size them to .459" for my Marlin #336 and lube them with either BP lube (Ox Yoke) or Felix Lube depending on which propellant I've chosen.

[Larry Gibson]

It is the result of research don by Spence and Pat Wolf to duplicate one of the original arcenal design for the 45/70 TrapDoor.

This is correct. It is an excellent bullet for the intended purpose yet is also good for "trapdoor" level loads in other rifles. BTW; the HB is not there to aide expansion als' the minie' bullets or othe HB designs. The HB was a means to regulate the external dimensions (giving the bullet a longer bearing surface)of the bullet and regardless of the alloy. As 45 2.1 sizes his at .462 I also will shoot mine "as cast" at .463-.464 or size and lube them with a .4615 H die. The former for original TD barrels and the latter for most .458 - .459 45-70 barrels.

Larry Gibson

[MtGun44]

Saved my sanity with one old trapdoor with a REALLY worn bore. Everything else
hit sideways, and it shoots well.

Bill

[rfd]

will this boolit work well in a modern 45-70, such as my h&r buffalo classic?

[Jim]

A few years back, I had a Marlin guide gun that I shot the 405-HB in. It worked well for me.

[rfd]

Anyone use this mold. Looks to be a fairly nice design with larger lube grooves. I assume that it's intended for BP but how about lower pressure / velocity smokeless?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/200890655681?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649

track of the wolf has it for lots cheaper than fleabay - $26/shipped.

[MtGun44]

It will work best at moderate pressures. At some pressure level the skirt blows out
asymmetrically as any HB boolit exits the muzzle.

Bill

[rfd]

is the hb design more prone to leading the barrel?

[bandit7.5]

Sized down to .446 and its the boolit I use in my Mauser 71/84

[Maven]

Bill, Look at Larry's post #5 above. The Lee 405 HB isn't a true Minie design, but one that saves weight and maintains bearing length. I think a load that blows out the skirt of that CB will likely raise pressure to dangerous levels. Recoil will be most unpleasant to say the least, as well.

[Larry Gibson]

I think a load that blows out the skirt of that CB will likely raise pressure to dangerous levels. Recoil will be most unpleasant to say the least, as well.

To paraphrase; "that be da phenomanon......."

Larry Gibson

[MtGun44]

I can't prove WHY, but I know this design cast soft from near pure Pb is the only one that
I have found that will group in a VERY worn TD with only vestigal rifling left at the muzzle
area. It is my theory that it expands with my 12 gr of Unique to fill the huge bore and
has enough grip to still spin well with mimimal rifling. It could be bumping up, but several
other solid base designs cast soft did not work at all, so it is my opinion that this one IS
expanding like Minie bullet and that this is why it is working. As I said, can't prove it, but
that seems to be what is happening.

Bill

[rexherring]

A friend of mine had a similar mold and ground down the HB pin a little to make the base hole smaller with just a little skirt. He used them in some pretty stiff loads just fine with a WW cast.

I had just wondered about it for .45-70 and mild loads or BP loads. May have to pick one up.

[rfd]

the wolfs' booklet on the trap doors explains that spence had lee and nei build that precise hb 405 grain bullet for him, based on original bullet spex autopsies he took that were used in those "old warriors" (trap doors). he even stated it worked wonders on really worn barrels. the td loads he listed with that .459" bullet are 59g/ffg and 22gr/4759, for 1150fps carbine and 1230fps rifle. there's MUCH more data he reported, as well. buy that booklet, it's excellent!

my guess is that it might just be quite accurate in a modern 45-70 such as the buffalo classic if the powder load was on the easy side, say unique or trail boss. but i wonder about the skirt expansion and leading. hmmm. guess i'll find out.

[Larry Gibson]

Bill

The idea in days of yore was for the 405s to "bump up" from inertia. Your very soft cast proobably do that with that sharp push from the Unique. One of the reasons the Army went to the 500 gr bullet was the 405 many time did not "bump up". This was especially the case with the .459 size bullets in the larger TD barrels. The 405 just didn't have the mass with the 1-20 or 1-16 alloyed M1873 bullets used. The 500 gr bullets did have the mass for proper bumping up and is one reason the were more accurate than the 405 gr bullets. It's all well documented in several books.

However, these days we know that, even with BP, we will get better accuracy using a bullet of diameter to fit the throat and groove depth rather to depend on bumping up as they did back then.

Larry Gibson