Horrible Accuracy Problem

[Mike.44]

Took my newly acquired Parker-Hale 3 Band musket to the range for the 1st time today. I was not happy with the results. The gun was thoroughly cleaned by me when I got it. I also did a thorough inspection. The bore is really nice.....so is the crown, nipple etc. Got some deep cavity 500+ Minies that were uniform. They are .575 and when loaded I could just push them partially in the bore by thumb. For the first time out I lubed them with bore butter with just a dab in the base to boot. I was using 65gr Swiss FFFG. They loaded fine and I did a light "uniform" little double tap to make sure they were seated properly. All shooting was done from the bench to check for accuracy and see how the rifle shot. I was shooting a good foot and a half to the left at 50 yds. Groups were about 4". I have done precision rimfire competition and know how to keep shots in 5/16" at 50yds. I also shoot heavy .45/70 loads and a 500 JRH revolver......so I know I am not flinching. The trigger is really nice on the P-H. While I did not expect stellar accuracy the first time out I am concerned about shooting so far to the left. I am aware that different powder, lube and projectile combos must be tried. I want to hunt with this rifle.....am I just asking too much from this firearm?

If not farmiliar this is a 1-78 twist .577 caliber with a 39" barrel

[Whiterabbit]

you are shooting conicals out of a round ball shooter. you've got two choices. Put way more powder in there to stabilize that projectile, or start shooting PRB's. Try 80-100 grains of FFF with a roundball. maybe more to stabilize that conical.

[Mike.44]

Sounds like a plan. Just that I was under the impression Minies would shoot well from this gun.

[carbine]

Pm sent

[Boerrancher]

In all honesty I doubt you will ever get suitable accuracy out of a conical projectile. In most cases a 1 in 48 twist is a bare minimum for a conical, and it had better be a short one. With a bit of work you can often get PRBs to shoot out of a fast twist ML, but it is nearly impossible to go the other direction. I am not saying don't try it. I just want to prepare you for the possibility of failure.

Best wishes,

Joe

[Nobade]

Remember this is a rifled musket being talked about. It is designed to shoot minie' bullets. Being a Parker Hale, it most likely has a well finished barrel on it. This rifle will most likely work properly once the owner learns all its quirks and finds out exactly what to feed it.

Once you come up with a good accurate load you can always make a new leaf for the rear sight to move the group to center. It's not going to take much to do that.

Are you sure those bullets you used were cast from dead soft pure lead? That really makes a difference with minie' bullets. They also need to have nearly perfect skirts on them. And of course varying the load up and down, as well as varying the granulation of the powder will all have an effect on accuracy. Keep at it, you'll eventually find what it likes.

Oh, check the barrel's bedding as well. They need to be bedded properly to shoot to their potential.

[451 Pete]

Mike,

Totally agree with what Nobade posted above. Standard military charge in original rifles was 60 grains with probably what would have been a 1 fg. powder.... using 3 fg in the Swiss which burns hotter I think I would reduce the charge by 10% from the 60 grains. A couple of other things. The minnies need to be as perfect as you can get them. Pure lead and weigh them and shoot in groups of like weights. Make sure there are no imperfections in the skirt. Try lubing the outside of the minnie instead of inside the hollow base. Although a minnie and the design was ment for quick reloading without cleaning between shots as you want to use this for hunting I would wipe and clean between shots as a clean barrel that you will be taking your hunting shot from will shoot to a different point of impact than a dirty one.

Just a few things to try.... Pete

[Hanshi]

Interesting predicament. My US M1841 .54 rifle will shoot a bit better than that with Maxi balls at 50 yards and the twist is 1-66".

[451whitworth]

as already stated i would try a slower powder like 2Fg as the Swiss 3Fg may be more than the skirt on the Minie can handle

[Fly]

Yea those were made to shoot minies.Most likly David from Research Press will post.He reads this form alot &
knows more about those guns than most.Those are fine rifles & I'm looking for one in the future.

Fly

[Fly]

Pete would a wad over the powder work, with the minnie?

Fly

[varsity07840]

you are shooting conicals out of a round ball shooter. you've got two choices. Put way more powder in there to stabilize that projectile, or start shooting PRB's. Try 80-100 grains of FFF with a roundball. maybe more to stabilize that conical.

With all due respect, most rifled muskets including all the Springfields had slow twists. 1/72 being
the norm. They were designed to shoot minies which they do with very good accuracy, IF you follow the rules. Pure soft lead. Minie sized no more than .002 under bore size. 65 gr. of 3F Swiss is a heavy charge and may be the reason accuracy is poor. Try aound 45-50 gr. Windage can be a problem on all muskets since the sight are adjustable for elevation only.


Duane

[Fly]

Well I have a question about slow twist.I know those muskets had a very slow twist.But so does
my Lyman GPR a 1 in 66, 54 cal.Could I not shoot a minnie in it, even thow it is made for a PRB?

Fly

[varsity07840]

Well I have a question about slow twist.I know those muskets had a very slow twist.But so does
my Lyman GPR a 1 in 66, 54 cal.Could I not shoot a minnie in it, even thow it is made for a PRB?

Fly

The GPR has deep grooves for PRBs. Rifled muskets had progressive rifling starting at .015 at the breech progrssing to .005 at the muzzle. Most reproductions today are a consistant .005.

Duane

[Good Cheer]

The old thick skirted Lyman .54 minie is doable in my GPR flinter. Tried out some stout charges but just haven't had the time or want to see what charge was the most accurate. Just wanted to see.

[Good Cheer]

Found a photo on my laptop showing how it loads.
http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy192/SNARGLEFLERK/54minieandGPRjpg_zps53cd7240.jpg

[Fly]

The old thick skirted Lyman .54 minie is doable in my GPR flinter. Tried out some stout charges but just haven't had the time or want to see what charge was the most accurate. Just wanted to see.

Can you still get them or a mold?

Fly

[cwskirmisher]

With all due respect, most rifled muskets including all the Springfields had slow twists. 1/72 being
the norm. They were designed to shoot minies which they do with very good accuracy, IF you follow the rules. Pure soft lead. Minie sized no more than .002 under bore size. 65 gr. of 3F Swiss is a heavy charge and may be the reason accuracy is poor. Try aound 45-50 gr. Windage can be a problem on all muskets since the sight are adjustable for elevation only.
Duane



+1. The PH Musket was specifically designed to shoot the minie ball. Poor accuracy could be attributed to too stout a charge, blowing the skirt, or too hard lead. As varsity07849 stated correctly, a charge of 45-50 of 3F is more appropriate. Or 50-60 of 2F. N-SSA shooters use these in competition all of the time, with excellent accuracy - 4 inch groups (or better) standing off hand at 100 yards.

[10 ga]

I want to hunt with this rifle.....am I just asking too much from this firearm?

If not farmiliar this is a 1-78 twist .577 caliber with a 39" barrel

AH, to the heart of the question. You are not asking too much from that nice rifle musket. Don't worry about getting a minnie to shoot as you arn't doing reenacting and being authentic isn't necessary. Go with the patched roundball! Simple as that. Personally I'd shoot 1&1/2 F Swiss. Get some .565 RBs and pillow ticking patches. Lube of preference (the bore butter is just fine). You know the loading sequence and start testing. I would start with 65 gr. of the 1.5 F Swiss and work up. The biggest problem may be finding .565 RBs. I have a mold that is ".562" and throws COWW roundies just fine. I have a Cabelas "Traditional Hawken" in .58 and with a 48 twist and 28" barrel. It shoots really good with the prb. Your twist is a bit different but the prb should give you plenty of accuracy, minute of deer out to 100 yd. That 280 gr.+- rb is a "smashing" success for deer hunting. Adjusting the sight after you find an accurate load shouldn't be that much of a problem. 10 ga

[Good Cheer]

Can you still get them or a mold?

Fly

Lyman still has them on their website.
http://www.lymanproducts.com/lyman/bullet-casting/mould-details-blackpowder.php?entryID=88

[Hellgate]

Mike,
Be sure it is shooting dead soft minies. For them to all be to the left tells me it is a sighting problem (may need a dovetail front sight). Recheck that crown just in case it is cut unevenly. I have dealt with gunsmiths that would never admit it to a customer but often just bend the barrel a bit to bring it to zero. If it were just the bullets they would hit all over the place or string rather than group. I shoot heavy skirted minies in my 58cals. The Lyman 575213-OS and the 577611. I use 90grs or FF or FFF Goex. These are heavy hunting loads for deer and elk. They are sighted to hit 5" high@50yds so they will be right on at 100 with that load. A patched .562 or .570 ball over 70-110grs BP will be plenty adequate for big game as well. The 58 minies will shoot lengthwise through a deer. I have never recovered one from the elk & two deer I have gotten with a 58 (Zuave and Musketoon). I also have a St. Louis Hawken and a "Buffalo Hunter".

[Hellgate]

Duplicate post...

[Mike.44]

Wow,
This is some great stuff you guys have posted. I will be refering back to this a try everything that has been posted. My load of 2F powder should be coming in soon. I REALLY appreciate all the posts.....you guys are the best....thank you very much.
Mike

I have some Hornady .57 RBs and .010 patches yet to try. The Minies are 575-213 and I can make an imprint with my fingernail on them.

[451 Pete]

Pete would a wad over the powder work, with the minnie?

Fly

Sorry Fly, didnt see your question until today. A wad over the powder with a hollow base minnie is not a good idea for best accuracy as a wad can get driven into the hollow base and become stuck there. This will cause a flier out of your group.
There also are a number of different designs of a minnie style bullet.... all mold designs are not the same. Lyman made a bullet mold specifically for the Parker Hale .58 caliber rifles with a 1-48 twist. This being the Lyman 575213 mold. It has a shallow cavity base and casts a 565 grain bullet. This is not to say other molds will not work as well but it is a mold that Lyman designed for these rifles.

Pete

[fouronesix]

Mike,
The number of suggestions should keep your head spinning for a while. Most of the enjoyment with these type rifles is the journey and not the destination. One of the reasons I loose interest in accurate, Jbullet shooting, scoped, bolt guns- short journey. I don't know if you will ever get to your objective accuracy with a minie in your musket but- you will have learned it inside and out by the time you settle on a hunting load- either minie or PRB.

I do not have the 575213 mold so no experience with it in my muskets. It appears to be a fairly "original" type design. An inexpensive trial could be one the Lee "improved" minie molds. But I could not get the Lee "improved" design to shoot as well in any of my muskets as the RCBS N-S (fixed weight) style. That was disappointing to me because the design looks so good and the Lee mold is so inexpensive!

As far as the PRB? You may find the .570 size to be a bit large with the .562 being the better fit. Just depends on your bore and patch material.

Many of the muskets have a common problem with the sights. Sounds like all you need to do is get the rear windage moved a little "right". Take a close look at the rear sight blade. You might be able to change it out with a blank blade then file the notch for zero windage after settling on a load.

[cwskirmisher]

One other 'trick of the trade' with these muskets - if it is not glass bedded... ensure the tang screw is tight, and the barrel bands are only snug (not over tight). That will give you the best starting point for barrel harmonics being even across your shot strings. If the tang falls below the surface of the stock when you tighten it down, put a shim underneath it. Here's a test - remove all the barrel bands and then tighten the tang screw. If the muzzle end lifts out of the bed of the stock, you will either have to full length glass bed the stock, or - shim the tang until you can tighten it down without the muzzle end lifting out of the stock. Once that's done, tighten the tang securely/firmly, and re-install the barrel bands just snug. They may slide forward ever so slightly after a string of firing, that's ok - tweak them down just a tiny bit more or put a bit of black plastic tape in front of them. You don't want them so tight that during heating/cooling cycles of the barrel that they affect the harmonics. They're just there to keep the barrel on the stock.

[ResearchPress]

The P.53 Rifle Musket with its 1 in 78 progressive depth rifling was designed for use with conical bullets not round ball. The service charge was 2.5 drams (approx. 68 grains).

I know some people who use FFFg powder for target shooting, but usually a lot lighter charges than you used; something in the order of 45 grains for 100m shooting. While this may give good target shooting accuracy it may not be sufficient for your hunting requirements. I don't hunt so will leave advice there to others. I also know some who use larger charges of FFFg but these are generally with the Enfield Short Rifles and 1 in 48 twist rifling with shallow base cavity bullets and modified base plugs such that a thicker skirt is cast.

I don't put lube in the base cavity. It's just introducing another variable in my view given the direct contact with the powder.

I've no significant experience with the P.53 so can't offer any specific advice. For what it's worth though, with my Short Rifle I have had good results with a shallow base RCBS Minie bullet, cast from pure lead and only the grooves lubed. Load is 75 grains of Swiss No.4 (1.5 Fg). No cleaning between shots. I've won matches from 50m offhand to 600 yards prone with this.

Remember you are shooting a military rifle not a target rifle, and have a look at the Managing The Enfield (http://www.researchpress.co.uk/firearms/british/enfield/management.htm) article on my web site.

David

[fouronesix]

Mike,
A 58 cal minie or RB pushed by even a modest charge of 40-50 grains will go right through a whitetail. The most important consideration is going to be accuracy and shot placement. Any conjecture about and anecdotes about shooting game past about 100 yards with these is best left for academic discussions or the target range.

[Fly]

I knew David would come sooner or later.David is the man on Enfields.Why would he not for he is a English man!

Fly

[fouronesix]

Mike,
Also, as to where to lube a minie and the "straw man" argument about the lube in the base contaminating the powder?? Low melting point lube in the base may indeed contaminate some of the powder during warm weather. I don't always lube in the base but it depends on what the load and gun likes. One particular combination does prefer lube in the base for best accuracy. If I'm just shooting at targets and not cleaning between shots and loading straight over the fouling in the bore-- sometimes- the more lube the better to keep the fouling soft. This is especially true in low humidity. Just have to experiment and see what works best.

Now about any lube contaminating the powder? Again it depends on the temperature and the melting point and thickness of the lube. I prefer very soft lubes on the order of Crisco in cool weather or a soft BW+veg oil in warm weather. Another thing to think about especially when loading that ONE, FIRST shot (the most important for hunting).. if only the outside of the minie is lubed with none in the base... what's to prevent the lube on the outside of the minie from migrating into the powder- especially with a soft lube in warm weather?? And further, if not cleaning between shots as in traditional or re-enactment type faster minie shooting... what's to prevent the lube soaked fouling that is coating the bore from previous shots from contaminating the powder as the minie, with the soft lube soaked fouling under it, is forced down onto the powder??

[59sharps]

you are shooting conicals out of a round ball shooter. you've got two choices. Put way more powder in there to stabilize that projectile, or start shooting PRB's. Try 80-100 grains of FFF with a roundball. maybe more to stabilize that conical.

it is not a round ball gun! its ment to shot minnies.
drop the load to about 48 of 3fffg. that should help. to much powder camn blow a skirt off the minnie.

[Fly]

Man I bet your head is spinning now.But that is the fun of these ole guns.It's getting the best from them.
Kind of like tuning a race car.Hell if it were easy we would be shooting modern day rifles.But when you can
take one of these to the range & shoot a fly off the top of the range target you can be proud.

Fly

[59sharps]

mine liked a 575 w/ 48 goex 3ffg or 42 of swiss 3ffg RCBS hodgens bullet

[Mike.44]

This is really great stuff. Yeah, my head may be spinning a little but I believe I can surely get this fine musket to shoot. I will be referring here and writing stuff down for my next range session. I really do appreciate all the help you guys have given me.
Mike

[longbow]

I am late to the thread and see that most issues have been dealt with but will add my $0,02 worth to confirm.

- The Parker Hale musket was designed to shoot Minies as was the Remington Zouave and yes, both have slow twists but they are Minie guns
- I used to shoot FFFg in my Musketoon all the time with now problems though generally FFg is recommended for larger than .50 cal so go ahead and try FFG it won't hurt and might help
- what weight and design of Minie are you shooting? That might be part of the problem if it is too heavy or wrong design ~ for instance the Lyman 577611 has a very thick skirt designed for heavy charges and might not work well with 65 grs.
- agree that you shouldn't put lube in the base
- lowering the powder charge some might help but I doubt you are blowing skirts with 65 grs. unless the skirt is very thin ~ at 80+ grains you are more likely to see skirt damage
- make sure Minies are dead soft as already stated
- don't pound them down the barrel, they should ram easily, then don't bounce the ram rod on them or you can damage the nose
- Have you recovered an fired Minies? Examining recovered boolits may show you if skirts are failing or if rifling is not being properly engraved.

When you find the right load/Minie combination you should see fine accuracy.

Longbow

[59sharps]

[QUOTE=10 ga;2053157]AH, to the heart of the question. You are not asking too much from that nice rifle musket. Don't worry about getting a minnie to shoot as you arn't doing reenacting and being authentic isn't necessary.
I hope he is not taking minnies to a fregienactment. some ones day will get ruined!!!!!:Fire::Fire:

[Mike.44]

That would be a REALLY exciting reinactment for sure.

[DIRT Farmer]

Mike package in the mail.

[Whiterabbit]

Hi Mike,

I am REALLY interested in the results of your testing. My education and experience with only one exception has been that twist rate defines performance. Period. So groove depth and other factors that affect accuracy, as explained by the good people on cast boolits, (who have never been wrong yet as per my shooting experience!) being the greater cause and design factor with respect to accuracy is something I am VERY interested to know the testing results for. Please update this thread as to what gives you your better accuracy, even if its marginal improvements rather than what's completely acceptable. I wait weekly with baited breath as to what really results in improved performance.

-S :)

[Mike.44]

Thanks DIRT Farmer. I really do appreciate this and I will update on the progress.

[Mike.44]

Had a much better day today at the range. First I had some Minies I received from DIRT Farmer that shot well. I had some Heavier (535 gr) Minies with a very short skirt look promising with 70=85 grains of Swiss FFG. They both did about 2 1/2-3 inches at 50 yds. I am sure that group can get smaller once I get a better regimen down and learn the pecularities of this rifle better. The previous owner had a taller front sight installed an it will need to be lowered(filed) once I figure the best boolit/powder combo. It shot just a touch left, but a full 15" low at 50 yds.
Mike

[Sharpsman]

I don't think that rifle will EVER shoot conical bullets well with a 1-78" ROT!

[dondiego]

After 3 years (age of this post) he might have gotten it figured out.

[fouronesix]

I don't think that rifle will EVER shoot conical bullets well with a 1-78" ROT!
You need to research the subject of the slow twist rifle musket and the Minié before making that statement. I have several slow twist rifle muskets, both original and repro that will wallow out a single 1-1 1/2" diameter hole with Miniés at 50 yds. The OP's gun was designed to shoot a Minié. Whether or not that individual gun will ever shoot well with any type of projectile is an entirely different thing.