At What Point Do You Call It Quits?

[B R Shooter]

Both of us being in our upper 50's, we just can't get along. Been married only 10 years to each other, and things not the best during this time, but the hopes of "maturing" together kept things going.

Such a daunting thought to have to separate, divide, liquidate, and start anew at this age. At the very least, I had hopes that we could, at a minimum, co-habitat peacefully and look after each other, support each other, even though the marriage wasn't the best. We've accumulated so much, prepared for all this pending boom that may come to be. The house, property, possessions, even animals. So what do we do with all this stuff?

What do you do? Just hang on, have the unavoidable argument every couple weeks, let a few days pass and things "smooth" out some, only to know it all will repeat itself in another couple weeks? There is no respect, per se, for each other, both of us very quick to "jump" on whatever can be criticized. My opinion is that she is much more apt to criticize me, where I let things roll off my back, but I know it all takes two....

So what does one do? At 57, what would you do?

[daniel lawecki]

Imo do you perfer to be happy or what your doing now. There is peace in happiness. You have to lok deep inside and think whats best

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Christain Marriage counseling would be my first suggestion.
otherwise it's time to leave.
Jon

[DCM]

Christian Marriage counseling would be my first suggestion.
otherwise it's time to leave.
Jon

+1, but IMO make sure the counselors are married too.

[tryNto]

I would agree with the 2 posts above.

[TXGunNut]

+1 on the counseling but it takes two, or so I hear. Been single all my life and the latest applicant to be Mrs TXGunNut is acting rather odd this weekend. Being single isn't so bad if you enjoy your own company. I realize growing old alone is a bit risky but somedays it seems worth it.

[DCP]

Will you take a stand for what is right. No matter what the cost. You may even say I would lay down my life for Christ. But the real test would be would you lay down your life for your fellow man.

Christ has unconditional love and forgiveness. Do you, if not you must learn to love and forgive and then change the life path you’re on.

It is not man’s place to judge you. Only Gods;

Not even God can change the past

I pray one day this helps someone, just so you know there is forgiveness. It was paid for long ago

[Philngruvy]

Been there, done that.

Councilling only works if both parties really want it to work.
For every door that closes, another opens.
I pray for you.

[Smitty's Retired]

BR Shooter...... we can all tell you what we think, or what we would do, but the ultimate decision is going to have to come from you & the miss. The only thing I can give is my hopes you can work it out where it is the best for both of you, and that it is the outcome that you both decide upon.

I agree with JonB & DCM, but it is going to take the both of you to agree to the counseling. And Both of you to be mature and honest with each other and with the counselor. But you both are going to have to make the ultimate decision to work it out or not. But give it a few days to cool down, then talk with her, ask her to sit down and talk about the situation. Sometimes it's hard to stay calm, and for both to not start making derogatory accusations, but that's what it's gonna take to get on a common ground to work it out.

I wish you the best man. You and your miss will be in my prayers.

[shooter2]

Christain Marriage counseling would be my first suggestion.
otherwise it's time to leave.
Jon

I also agree.

[smokeywolf]

First, seek professional counselling. If you are members of a church, priests and ministers frequently excel at marriage counselling. During counselling you will find out if both of you really want to save the marriage. Counselling can do two things; it can help you save the marriage and it can show you whether the marriage is actually saveable.

smokeywolf

[S&W-629]

I have been thare.I wish you luck

[felix]

Satan loves to divide for easier conquest. ... felix

[Beekeeper]

Like someone said "Make sure the Councellor is Married"
Wife and I went to one once that thought it would take at least 5 years of councelling to get us straightened out, 2 hours a week ,at $55 an hour.
That was 20 years ago.
Wife and I talked about it and decided we didn't want to support a grown child and stopped fighting.
Still argue a lot but most times it is just to get each others goat and have something to talk about.

That said councelling did not work for us.
What did was deciding what "we" as a couple wanted and what "we" as a couple had to do to get there.

beekeeper

[williamwaco]

I have been there.

I have known lots of other people who have been there.

In my experience counseling never works unless BOTH parties admit they are partially at fault and are willing to make changes in their own behavior. Repeat BOTH parties. It is rare for either party to admit they are even partially at fault, let alone both parties.

My advice: Do not take any advice from anyone.

You gotta do what you gotta do.
You gotta do what you can live with.
Nobody can make that decision for you.


When you reach the point that anything would be better than staying, that is time to leave.

[geargnasher]

First, seek professional counselling. If you are members of a church, priests and ministers frequently excel at marriage counselling. During counselling you will find out if both of you really want to save the marriage. Counselling can do two things; it can help you save the marriage and it can show you whether the marriage is actually saveable.

smokeywolf

This.

You both probably bring a LOT of baggage and un-resolved conflict to the table. Sorting that out is the job of a professional. This takes time, money, and work, but along the way the answer to your relationship will become obvious, I just hope you both end up with the same vision of what to do when the the time comes.

My wife and I have had a very stormy relationship, and both had multiple personal issues that had to be worked through. Bottom line, we learned how to discover and cope with our own problems and help each other become healthier, happier people as individuals, which enabled the relationship to bloom in fertile, stable soil. Don't expect to reap the benefits of marriage without some honest, hard work, EVERY DAY. Without communication, honesty, trust, and respect, you have nothing. Old wounds and attitudes can be healed, too, and if you both learn how, you can even change the past.

But it does take two.

Gear

[runfiverun]

i have seen several marriages "work" where one half lived upstairs and one downstairs.

[x101airborne]

I can only speak for my first marriage. It started when I was 33 and I thank GOD it has continued.
My wife and I went to a counselor, and I appreciate every minute since. All we needed was a mediator to say "Hey, look at what you are doing". Sometimes my wife got the bitter end and sometimes I did, but it was SOOOO worth it. Please, if you thought it was a good idea at one time, please dont give up on it now.

[dakotashooter2]

I talk to my ex just about every day and enjoy each others company probably once a week. We got divorced 3 years ago. We get along better now than the last 5 years of our marriage. We just couldn't live in the same house together. There are no expectations in our current relationship..................

[Jim Flinchbaugh]

"huntin accidents" are cheaper than divorces- just sayin'

That said and levity aside, Did you get married in a church and make a commitment before God?
If so, you are obligated to that commitment as well as the one to your wife.

[2HighSpeed]

First thing I would do is take a weekend getaway. JUST the two of you. Often times, we are quick to jump and/or criticize others because we ourselves are stressed. Pack a bag, get in the car, and just go. A weekend might help relieve the stress. My husband and I, although we have only been married a year this coming Feb 18, took weekend trips with our boys twice a month when we where in SC. We got two rooms at a hotel and they where adjoining. Boys in one, us in another. Nathan was always with us cuz well, he's my hemmoroid. I have noticed that here in TX we have not had 1 getaway and we jump at each other often. Admittedly, I get upset over the stupidest things. I am totally OCD and if anything is out of place in my house I get irritated like no other. He left his socks in front of the basket this am, and I threw them in the garbage. That sparked a minor tissy. Maybe a getaway here and there will help. If that fails, go the counseling route. But do anything and everything you can to fix it, with her help, before you call it quits. It's easy to walk away, it's hard to stay and fix it.

[fishin_bum]

Write down a list of all the things you believe you have done or do that cause the marriage to go south, and how you would like to change to make things better. Give it to her and ask her to do the same, then sit down and talk about it. Your aren't placing blame, you are taking responsibility. If that doesn't work take the guns and tools and RUN! Good Luck and Best Wishes!

[plmitch]

Sounds like you already know your answer if you’re asking the question here of all places. Be happy. Remember they say divorce is expensive because it’s worth every penny invested.

[Edubya]

I agree with Gear. " Without communication, honesty, trust, and respect, you have nothing. Old wounds and attitudes can be healed, too, and if you both learn how, you can even change the past."I went through this after 12 years of marriage. Swore that I would never get married again. A lot of one night stands and finally dated a gal that was honest and sincere, that was 26 years ago and it's not been roses ever since but we are adult enough to know that we could both be better and when things start going astray we sit and confide with each other about what would make things right again.
I'll bet this is not your first marriage and probably not hers either. We have to accept that we are not perfect and have caused a lot of our own problems then commit to change, do a little more to help our life time partner. Commitment is the secret.
Hope you the best.

EW

[WILCO]

So what does one do? At 57, what would you do?

Try to save the marriage. Seek help. Self evaluate, grow and go from there.

[Lloyd Smale]

Im with some of the others. Im not a real believer in counsoling. It rarely works from what ive seen by the friends i have that have tried. If you dont get along now counsoling might get another year of living unconfortably but rarely makes anything last for the long run. You are who you are and so is she after this many years. I went though a divorce myself. I now know it was the best thing i ever did but at the time it was tough. As a matter of fact it was hell! God has a plan for you though. I now am married to the best women ive ever met. She loves me for who i am and doesnt put conditions on her love for me. We lived together for 5 years and have been married for 5 years now and in that 10 years have never had a real fight. Sure weve disagreed and have probably yelled a time or two but its never lasted more then an hour or two. My first marrige was a constant battle and i swore i was done with that ****. Count your losses and go find happiness is the best advice i could give you. things you will loose are only things. the ones you really miss will be eventually replaced. I lost over half my gun collection in my divorce that needed to be sold to pay off the ex. It was tough but again they were only things. Heck my new wife has even bought me guns. Biggest thing to keep in mind is God is with you and guiding you all the way through this and does have a plan for you.

[B R Shooter]

Thanks to all. It's embarrassing to air dirty laundry, but just needed some feedback. First, we've been to the counseling, on 3 different times. There is nothing there of value. They all play by the same work book, say the same things. Bottom line, it does take two, and the desire to make things right. Second, it will be painful, not in the emotional way, but the division of things. She will end up on the short end of the stick, I make the money, provide the insurance. Selling the house, dividing possessions, moving, that's the painful things.

I'll cogitate on this for a while, don't want to make a hasty decision.

Still, I just can't believe that two educated people can't put petty **** behind themselves and make the best of things. But that desire and want has to be stronger than the desire to criticize, dig, argue, etc.

[Wayne Smith]

Couple of points - communication is essential and one of the hardest things to do. The emotional argument ends and the fight begins when ONE person stops listening. If both of you are willing to listen to the other there is hope. Two intelligent people who are very different can come to agreement - even if it's an agreement to disagree - if you both listen.

Second, it takes two to fight. Period. One person can yell and shout and blame, but it takes two to have a fight. Learning to understand one another is part of loving. Learning to respect the other is also part of love. Learn to value differences rather than try to make the other just like you.

Finally, recognize that you cannot change her. I can't change any of my clients, all I can do is point out opportunities. It's up to them to do the hard work. If I can accomplish self awareness in another it is usually the beginning of success. Once I am aware of what I am doing I am able to change. Until I am aware of what I am doing I am helpless and unable to change.

[bob208]

i don't know your full problems. but i went through it. still fighting part of it. i was packed and ready to go about three times in the last 2 years. but we got rid of the biggest problem. now things are working out. we are working on it.

[gray wolf]

Well you ask when do you call it quits ? Take the S off the end and the word is quit
I guess I can't be much help with this one, I don't know how to quit, was never issued that quit thing. Yes I have come close, but with some help and a chance to re-think it worked out.
If you run out of ammo
use your gun as a club
If you loose your club,
pick up a big stick,
If the stick breaks--
use your knife
If you drop your knife
use you hatchet
Kick with your feet
scratch with your nails
gouge eyes,
Bite and butt with your head
Two sticks and your shoe laces and make a garret
But never give up.

Just sayin

[scottiemom]

Sorry you are having to go through this. I can't even imagine how painful it is. I am not sure of what your spiritual beliefs are, but I will echo what others have said. Find a counselor. One you can relate to and click with. You said you have been to 3 - maybe the 4th one would be the right one? I think you have to determine in your heart that you want this marriage to work and you will do whatever it takes to make it work. If she won't go to couseling, you go. Work out the issues in your life that may be causing some of the conflict in your marriage. If this is the woman you feel God wants you to be with - hang in there, love her, care for her, respect her. She may come around. She may not-she may choose to leave, but at least you can stand before God and yourself and know that you did everything you could to save your marriage.
I have seen this work so often in other marriages. I have also seen it not work. The other person has to want to stay. The other person has to want to change. You can't make them, you can only work on yourself.

[blackthorn]

Both of you must want to make things work! Both of you must be willing to take thier share of responsibility! Both of you must be prepared to hear the counciller say you were wrong! Each of you must trust the other, but if there is no trust on one side or the other the likelyhood is it aint gonna work! Good luck with whatever you decide to do!

[cbrick]

"huntin accidents" are cheaper than divorces- just sayin'

That's a shocking thing to say! I can't even imagine the mind that would think it's ok to end someone else's life for no more than your own convenience.

Rick

[Harter66]

I've been married 2x both times ended fairly peaceably. The 1st we worked out the "10 year change of life goals". For her that meant a change in jobs and for us we took some extended time and a trip. She didn't want to start looking toward anything that looked like retirement w/our kids all but grown and gone. Inhufact she started down a road of exactly the opposite effort spending 500-1000 /mo w/o anything to show for it. I spent 2 years trying to fix what went wrong. In the end we had just become too different I guess. 20 years....
The 2nd well if I figure out what went wrong there ,the book will be worth 1000s. She decided 1 morning a yr ago that she was done. As near as I can figure after she had her teeth fixed and some weight lost I just wasn't what she wanted. Love wasn't enough. She refused counsel. We still talk and we could someday work it out .her kids especially the youngest boy never liked me much. Maybe she was "protecting " her kids. . I'll probably never know.

I chalk it up to female psychology. I'm told if you have to ask how far to go odds are you've gone about as far as you care to. Women are not to be figured out that much I'm sure of. If it really hurts both of you to divvy things up then you've got something to save if not there isn't.

Best of luck....

[fatelk]

I'm not much of an expert on this subject, but I'll throw in my two cents worth (two cents was probably worth something when that term originated maybe?)

I married the first girl I ever held hands with, and haven't regretted it for a second, so I can't claim to know what it's like to have those kind of rough times. We irritate each other sometimes with our respective quirks and flaws, and argue once in a while, but I can't imagine life alone again.

A couple years ago a friend of mine told me that he and his wife were splitting up. They didn't want to but they just argued and made each other miserable. My wife and I had recently watched a movie on the subject so I mentioned it to him. It was a bit cheesy and preachy (Fireproof, I think), but it had a good message. From the way he was talking I thought it would be a great message for him. He just replied with "I'll tell her she should watch it". I knew at that moment they were doomed. And they were. To me it's really sad that people throw so much away so easily. To me marriage is a life-long sacred commitment. To many/most in our modern American culture, it's more like a health club membership: you sign up with good intentions but when it get to be too much trouble you just let it go. I expect I just offended a lot of folks here, but that is how I see it.

The idea was that it takes two. Both sides are at fault, maybe 50/50, maybe 70/30, maybe 95/5. If you really want to save your marriage, don't focus on trying to change her and fix the 95% that she's at fault because that won't work. You can't force someone to change. If you are really serious, focus on your 5%. Work really hard on the part that is your fault, and if she has even an ounce of reasonableness she will eventually start to see your commitment and realize perhaps she could pitch in and try to change a bit herself.

That's the idea anyhow. From what I know about myself and human nature in general, I can imagine it would be one of the hardest things a person could do. When people argue and fight we find each others buttons. We get angry and push those buttons to set the other person off. The other person pushes our buttons and we inevitably react. Changing our attitudes and hearts to not push or react to those buttons is stinkin' hard.

[pls1911]

Well, ditto to most of the above, kinda sorta.
To some folks, promises made before family, friends, God, and gots can't count after 20 year.. and no amount of counselling is going to fix that.
If one doesn't want to accept the hard work of life, she'll use counselling to prove to you she's not responsible for committments 20 years old.. ( huh?) At that psychotic point DO NOT think religion, magical thinking, or any other approach will repair a toxic mentalty.
1. Protect yourself.. get a good attourney who protects a MAN's interest..it's not about being nice or generous... she's on her own for the rest of her life and she doesn't give CR@P about the outhouse you live in.
2. Stash what you can before she cleans you out... then split the rest.
3. Let her leave to get her space... hold on the real estate unless other conditions exist which make it clear to get out4.
4. Get it behind you fast and final no lingering cause for ANY contact. I tried to hold on and let her see the light...and she banked two years salary at my expense ( DUMB!! ) Before I threw in the towel and foced it to closure.
Have not seen or heard if she alive, sick or dead, and will not allow myself to care.
I went through it at 50, and it was wrenching... BUT I am now blessed with the finest lady on earth and extended family to boot, on both sides, Bible thumpers, agnostics and aetheists all.. what an eclectic mix....
Looking forward to a (Step) daughter's wedding in the fall, and grandbabies at some point thereafter.
HEED THIS: LIFE IS TOO SHORT AND FLEETING TO WASTE ONE DAY KEEPING YOU FROM PEACE ON EARTH.
Bitter? Not at all. Just don't care.. should have done this 20 years earlier... and good riddence.

[300winmag]

Been there, and all I can say is if you or she or both is not happy it is time to go. Life is to short not to be happy.
Good luck
P.S: I was told once that if I went to the fridg got out a jug of milk poured a glass full then took a big drink and it was soured, would I put it back in the fridg and go back for 2nd's or throw it away.

[gandydancer]

If it feels like your renting a place to live. and don't look forward to coming home each day. GET OUT. PS fifty seven is not all that old. and life is to short to live with anger all the time. get moving and feel better about life.

[FISH4BUGS]

......it will be painful, not in the emotional way, but the division of things. She will end up on the short end of the stick, I make the money, provide the insurance.
Man, I hate to break the news to you, but you had better start talking to a good lawyer. It is just as possible that YOU might wind up on the short end of the stick. I don't know where you live, but states vary as to who has to pay for what. You may easily be stuck with alimony, paying for insurance, and who knows what else.
With all due respect to the counselors of the world, be they Christian counselors or other types (like LCSW's, psychiatrists, psychologists, or whoever, both of you have to want to make it work.
The fact that you are considering bailing out says you should start talking with a good lawyer and start getting your affairs in order. You will lose more of what you worked for if you wait. That doesn't mean you can't begin to try to heal the marriage, but it had better work 'cause if it doesn't, and you aren't prepared, you will take it in the shorts.
For instance, during my separation, for 3 years I paid for the health insurance for the kids and my ex. My lawyer said get that agreement in writing. She refused. The judge said the arrangement, because it was not in writing, did not exist. I was doing that because I was a nice guy.
I have gone through what you are going through. Be prepared. Your lawyer is your guiding light. The Good Lord will bring you comfort in your time of need, but the lawyer will save your bacon financially.
You don't have to ask me how I know.......

[John Ross]

You may find some useful advice in this piece: http://web.archive.org/web/20070108014836/http://www.john-ross.net/marriage_ii.htm

JR

[Lloyd Smale]

have to kind of chuckle at the counsoling at least in my case. My ex insisted we go to a professional and when we went she was basicaly told the problem was with her and not me and she stormed out and we had one last good fight and I told her not to let the door hit her in the @@@! One other bit of advice im going to give you that you might not want to here is get a lawyer!! At first we decided to do it ourselves in a civil manner but typical of a women she had about 10 friends coaching her on how to screw me. Every day she came asking for more and even took stuff without asking. After a couple episodes of this i got a lawyer and changed the locks on my doors. She was made to bring back everything she took and ended up with less then i originaly offered her. Like i said my life is a million times better because of it. I found a good women and found that life shouldnt be a struggle and you shouldnt have to fight and cant force happiness. Only downside to the whole deal in the long run was i had to sell about half my guns to pay her a lump sum payment. Theyve all been replace since and like everything else you worry about loosing were only things! things arent important in the big picture, your happiness is. 5 years from now your going to want to walk up and thank her for not trying, mark my words.

[Awsar]

being single is not a bad thing.

hope the best for you .

[fatelk]

To me it's a bit sad how many here are saying to get out. No offense intended to you guys; just saying it's a sad commentary on our society.

I was told long before I got married that it's better to be single than to marry the wrong person. I waited a long time but fortunately chose well. I can think of a couple girls I used to hang out with that would have made life miserable.

The interesting thing to me is that some folks here are saying give it a try, maybe you can make it work. Others that have gone through bad divorces themselves are saying dump her. I can pretty much guarantee she's got friends telling her the same thing: your the bad one, you have all the problems, she should dump you and give you the shaft while she's at it. I can't even pretend to know the situation or what you should do, but I suppose if she's all bad and not willing to try at all, then maybe they are right. I wish you the best.

Added: I just read John Ross's article on marriage, and realize that I probably shouldn't even be participating in this thread. I live in a whole different world than many or most here; a world I'm sure you would consider ignorant or naive. Both sets of my grandparents made it past the half-century mark, my parents are getting close, and my wife's parents were the same way. Neither of us would have considered marriage if divorce was a possibility; it's not even an option. As to the big deal in the article about the frequency of sex before as opposed to after marriage; if you're old-fashioned and naive enough to wait, it's not a contest. I found a good one and I treat her right; ten years and four kids later I still have NO complaints about "frequency". Then again, I do live in a different world. Sorry to the OP for the thread drift, and I apologize to everyone I've just offended, but I'll take my "old-fashioned, ignorant" world over the sad world in that article any day of the week, and twice on Sundays.:)

[Recluse]

Added: I just read John Ross's article on marriage, and realize that I probably shouldn't even be participating in this thread. I live in a whole different world than many or most here; a world I'm sure you would consider ignorant or naive. Both sets of my grandparents made it past the half-century mark, my parents are getting close, and my wife's parents were the same way. Neither of us would have considered marriage if divorce was a possibility; it's not even an option. As to the big deal in the article about the frequency of sex before as opposed to after marriage; if you're old-fashioned and naive enough to wait, it's not a contest.

Well then, you have company because I probably shouldn't be participating either, but I'm going to, and with both feet because that's my way.

On the Kinman side and the Browning side of my family, divorce did not happen. But neither did spousal abuse, infidelity, etc. On both sides of the family, we were country folks raised with old world country values and norms. We were church-going, God-fearing Christians who not only took our vows on an altar in front of God, but we invited God into our marriages.

If anyone in the long line of our family would've been "tagged" for a divorce, it probably would've been me and my wife. Our friends and acquaintances all said it'd never work--my wife, the liberal yankee television news reporter and me, the redneck Texas federal lawman.

Guess what? We made it work. At times it was tougher than nails, but we never quit. My wife, initially, wanted to do the justice-of-the-peace ceremony and I put my boot down and said absolutely not. She fancied herself as an "atheist" at the time but in reality was just a pissed off Catholic. Today, her faith is every bit as strong as mine and her knowledge of the Bible dwarfs mine in gargantuan ways.

My wife is terminally ill with a debilitating disease. I will outlive her. Her constant pain affects her moods in all sorts of manners and as such, she is not overly social. She has her church group and our small Life group and a few other acquaintances she does physical therapy with. When the pain is bad and life seems hopeless, I'm the recipient of everything bad that has ever been bottled up inside her.

Easy thing to do would be to walk out. No judge in America would deny me a divorce and nobody, including my wife herself, would blame me or think any less of me.

But I would. Me. The guy I see in the mirror.

I took a vow in front of God that said, "For better or worse, for richer or poorer, in sickness and in health." We've had the better and we've seen the worse and with her health, we'll probably see more "worse" down the road--but we'll do it together. We've been poor and we've been rich and neither has made a bit of difference in our love for each other. You can't take it with you when you die and we get more pleasure out of helping others whenever we can than buying expensive toys for ourselves. Even with the airplane, traveling has become all but impossible for my wife, so there is very little for us to spend our money on except for doctors and experimental treatments and research. We've had the health and now we've seen my wife's health deteriorate.

If we wanted to or let it, we could let our marriage deteriorate to the point of no return. It wouldn't happen overnight, just as the OP's marriage hasn't gone downhill overnight. But when we felt gravity tugging us down, one of us would realize it and shoulder more of the load.

Marriage is NOT a 50/50 proposition. Never has been and never will be. On any given day or even any given moment, one partner will have to shoulder more of the load than the other. Sometimes you might have to shoulder more of the load for days on end. Maybe months, sometimes years.

But it all boils down to your vow. Are you both going to keep it or not?

If you have no desire nor intention to keep your vows, then quit. No big deal. We've raised a generation of "me-first" and instant gratification people who place their well-being and happiness ahead of and before all else. Marriage can be hard work, but it's up to you to decide what value you place on hard work and what the reward for such work is.

In my case, the value is having my absolute best friend--my wife--with me forever and through anything life may throw at us.

Love is a gift to us from God. If you feel that the love is "lost" or missing, then seek counseling and first and foremost, don't go looking for "faults" with one another--go looking for that love that was lost. The saying that "Love conquers all" is true, but again, you have to work at it.

It's worth it. Love is always worth it.

:coffee:

[Edubya]

Most intelligent reply that has been posted.Recluse, I don't know how to say it but I've respected you from the beginning and respect you even more now! Thank you!
EW

[Lloyd Smale]

I too now have a wife that i would stick with though ANYTHING. Thing is she earned that. Shes a good women and would do the same for me. It sounds a bit corny but she is my sole mate. Shes the one God intended me to be with and if i would have forced the first marrige i would have missed out on a pile of happiness not only mine but my wifes too.

I grew up in a strict catholic family and out of 6 kids am the only one that went through a divorce. My parents have been married for 55 years. There marrige is one of the reasons i did get a divorce. they are about total opposites and a week doesnt go by that there not battling each other. its almost commical that they still are at each others throats after this long. Youd think theyd have learned by now. Never any violence but allways picking at each other.

I told myself a long time ago i wasnt going to live like that and wont. My first marrige was about a mirror image of theres. My present wife and i have never been mad at each other for more then a couple hours! I took alot of pressure from my family over my divorce but today ask my parents and they will even tell you it was the best decision i ever made.

Im a christian man but i find it hard to believe that God wants us to live in a relationship that is a constant battle. He wants us to be happy! those wedding vows were made up by someone in the church, not by God. I have all the respect in the world for someone who has worked through a bad marrige and made it go and is happy now but that is a very rare thing. Yes you have a responsiblity to your vows, yes you have a responsiblity to your children and your wife but bottom line is that if your not happy either will they be and your first responsibility is to yourself. God puts us here for a short period of time and its up to you to make the best of it. I cant see suffering because of some vows i took at a wedding ceremony. Call me selfish but i intend on enjoying this gift God gave me and ill about bet when i meet my maker he wont judge me because i left a bad relationship and in fact will praise me for making the best of my life.

[Echo]

That's the idea anyhow. From what I know about myself and human nature in general, I can imagine it would be one of the hardest things a person could do. When people argue and fight we find each others buttons. We get angry and push those buttons to set the other person off. The other person pushes our buttons and we inevitably react. Changing our attitudes and hearts to not push or react to those buttons is stinkin' hard.
And having lived together for any period of time, one knows where the buttons are, and what happens when they are pushed. If there is a true desire (on both parts) for reconciliation, one learns not to push those buttons, and also learns to disable one's own buttons so no one is able to push them again. Seldom will a counselor see that happen - when a couple comes to a counselor, the relationship is in a bad way, and is probably broken. People learned their 'buttons' over time, and turning them off is very difficult. The counselor's job then is to save the people, not the marriage.
So, OP - can YOU turn off your buttons? Can SHE? If not, let the lawyers settle everything, and Press On.
(I did the work for several years...)

[felix]

An annulment is a "divorce" within the Church. The annulment's argument is always that the marriage had never taken place in the first place because the vows were not sanctimoniously legitimate at the time of marriage. It boils down to: Were you married within the Church, or in front of one of Caesar's affiliates? If within the Church, did you get an annulment from the Church before remarriage? Does it make a difference? Sooner or later you will find out! ... felix

[Hawkeye45]

Been there, last time it was for my own sanity (after 30 years) . No one can tell you what to do, but please do what you feel in your heart is right.
Ed

[Vinne]

It's funny that I should happen on this post today...you see today I am married 41 years. All couples are going to fight from time to time. Sure there were times when I felt like I was going nuts and wanted to call it quits but I always decided to live by two things. Always try to talk it out and never go to bed without a kiss. You each have you own mind and sometimes things that are said one way and understood another.

First thing is not to jump to conclusions. Don't scream at each other but talk it out to find out the real reason for the fight. Sometimes a bad day at work or a traffic jam may cause things to get out of hand at home. Just showing the other person that you care is all it takes to smooth things over.

There is a different formula for each couple and you both have to just try to find out what it is. Talking is the best thing and compromise is another with one not the one to give in all the time but it is a two way street. When you are right then explain why but if you are wrong then say you are sorry.

If after all that, if things still can't be worked out and you both feel that it is time to through away 10 years...

I hope you both find a way to work things out and make it to see the 41st year!!! I'll pray for you both to make the right choice.

Vinne

[leftiye]

Will you take a stand for what is right. No matter what the cost. You may even say I would lay down my life for Christ. But the real test would be would you lay down your life for your fellow man.

Christ has unconditional love and forgiveness. Do you, if not you must learn to love and forgive and then change the life path you’re on.

It is not man’s place to judge you. Only Gods;

Not even God can change the past

I pray one day this helps someone, just so you know there is forgiveness. It was paid for long ago

Most men will give it a go (at judging anyone handy) anyway. Someone said if you are past the anger, and still want to just walk away, then it's time to do so. I'd go, but life wouldn't be any better.

[oldfart1956]

Finally....something I know something about....divorce. Beyond all the sound advice and prayers....after 20+ years of marriage and over 50 we decided it wasn't worth the work. If I had to crawl away with nothing but the clothes on my back and live in the truck....I'd have still done it. I lost a lot but trust me it was worth every bit of it. I'm happier, healthier, got a back account and built a room to house the new guns. I sleep better and have the means and time to do what I want to do. I was working 70/80hrs. a week and still couldn't get my head above water. The last time she handed me $40,000 worth of credit card debt (with MY name fordged on the credit cards!) and I hit the roof. (this happened 3 times...) She found a friend...on the innernet. He's now my best friend too! Seriously! (I love ya Joe!) I have a new car now! I have a girlfriend! She goes to college! I just turned 57 and I've never been this happy in my life! I will never....EVER have another woman live in my home again. I've never been lonely or depressed....... since being divorced. Just my thoughts on the matter. Audie....the deliriousley happy Oldfart! :)

[Wal']

Sadly life just doesn’t work the way we hoped, went through my second divorce at 55, the only advice I will give is that your lawyer's will scr**w you over much more than your wife will.

If at all possible try to finalize all your financial property & dealings between yourselves, there's no winners once the lawyer's get involved.

Single & like oldfart, never been happier.

[cbrick]

I got divorced too and have been far happier single. It's much to recent since the divorce to jump back into or even consider marriage considering the divorce was in 1978.

Rick

[Stephen Cohen]

Been there and got out, I mean what was the point of seeing a councellor when wife actually said, she didn't need to see one to be told she was wrong. Both parties need to want it too work.

[CWME]

Pray for guidance, and pray for your mate. Putting her needs and concerns in front of yours and asking for guidance to make the right decisions can make a world of difference. Might not change the final outcome but your heart would be in the right place and I bet you would be a lot less bitter than most in the end.

[John Ross]

Added: I just read John Ross's article on marriage, and realize that I probably shouldn't even be participating in this thread. I live in a whole different world than many or most here; a world I'm sure you would consider ignorant or naive. Both sets of my grandparents made it past the half-century mark, my parents are getting close, and my wife's parents were the same way. Neither of us would have considered marriage if divorce was a possibility; it's not even an option. As to the big deal in the article about the frequency of sex before as opposed to after marriage; if you're old-fashioned and naive enough to wait, it's not a contest. I found a good one and I treat her right; ten years and four kids later I still have NO complaints about "frequency". Then again, I do live in a different world. Sorry to the OP for the thread drift, and I apologize to everyone I've just offended, but I'll take my "old-fashioned, ignorant" world over the sad world in that article any day of the week, and twice on Sundays.:)

You are not old-fashioned or ignorant, and you don't need to apologize. Like some of the others who have posted, you have worked hard to maintain your marriage, but it only worked BECAUSE YOUR WIFE WORKED AT IT TOO. My article was directed at men whose wives expect everything to be perfect for them all the time, and feel that it is the husband's (and ONLY the husband's) job to see that this is so, and when it doesn't happen, are perpetually dissatisfied. You don't have a wife like that, but a lot of men do. To a guy in that situation, hearing about how you are still married because you and your wife have worked hard at your marriage is useless information, because his wife isn't willing to work at it at all, so your comments really aren't "advice" in any way.

A guy like that needs sound suggestions about what he himself can do, that don't require his wife to do an about-face with her personal behavior.

[fatelk]

John, I misread your advice; sorry about that. I certainly agree that both parties have to at least try; I've just seen too many people that haven't tried very hard.

The other thing I did different was to make sure and find the right one. We were married four months after we met the first time, but we communicated enough about anything and everything that we had no surprises. Communication is the big one for us. We talk all the time. As far as hard work goes; she's my best friend so it doesn't seem much like hard work at all, really.

[Boerrancher]

I am on my second marriage. My first was a miserable failure. I was a young Army Officer who was never home, and she had too much time on her hands. We were married for 11 years, and after nearly being forced into bankruptcy 3 times by her, I had to call it quits. She could spend $20 K in a month and not have anything to show for it. My two daughters were not properly cared for, I would come back from a month in the field and find my two little girls wanting something to eat, and all of the cupboards, and refrigerator empty, their mother no where to be found. It didn't take many times of this before I was done.

My current wife has been amazing. She raised our kids and had another while I was in Afghanistan early into my deployment, and then stuck by me through nearly 3 years of being bounced around the Army hospital system after being wounded. I am no where near the same man that I was when I left. The blast that wreaked my body also damaged the frontal lobe of my brain, giving me an almost complete personality change, no short term memory, loss of much of my long term memory, and all of the physical challenges I have. My wife could have left me and been justified in doing so. I would not have held it against her if she had, but she didn't. She stuck with it, and we have become even stronger in our marriage.

Do we fight? Heck yeah we fight, at least once a week about something. We are both very passionate people. Do we let our fights get to us? No we don't. It is fine to fight, in fact it can be healthy as long as you understand what you are fighting about or for. My wife and I set up some ground rules for our fights years ago, and if either of us violates those rules it automatically invalidates the argument for the the person who broke the rules. Here are our rules and their explanations as to why they are rules and how by violating them you prove your side is not a valid one.

1. Stick to the subject at hand. Do not drag up what happened yesterday, last week, last month, last year, or 10 years ago. Do not add other things to the issue. If the issue is money, stick to the financial issue at hand, don't bring up the fact that the garbage didn't make it to the curb, or that dinner was late. If what you are fighting for can not be supported, and stand on it's own merits, then you are wrong and your spouse is right.

2. No name calling. This is a favourite technique of those who have no real argument. You see the liberals do it all the time. If you disagree with them you are, racist, homophobic, a Nazi, or a million other names. Name calling is a distraction technique that is used to divert your attention away from the real issue because the name caller does not have a valid argument against what you are saying. If a name is called or a derogatory term is used in an argument, between the wife and I the person that said it just lost the argument.

3. If a resolution can't be reached in a logical time frame, we shut it down and wait a few days before picking the subject back up again. It is amazing at how a couple of days can change ones perspective.

4. If you have a complaint about something before you bring your complaint forward have a solution in hand also. This eliminates much unnecessary b***hing. It is easy to complain about problems, but if you don't try to come up with a solution you are part of the problem.

5. Our final rule... Is it going to matter in a year? in two years? five years? or ten? If the answer is "NO it is not going to matter," then it is not worth fighting over.

These 5 rules are the ROE for my family. The wife and I started teaching them to the children at an early age. We even go as far as to allow the kids to debate our decisions with us based upon these rules, with the final caviot being, "The adult decision is final and the debate is over when the adult says it is over." Many people question our parenting skills when we let our kids present their side of an issue to us, but what I have discovered is that even my Autistic 7 year old can understand a bit of logic and how it works better than emotion in a debate. My children have been learning critical thinking because of this process since they were old enough to communicate verbally.

I would suggest to anyone who is considering a divorce to get away from everything for awhile, seek Christian counselling, and also establish a set of rules for arguing. Also, establish consequences for breaking those rules. Put them in writing and both parties sign them and keep a copy of it with them as well as post it on the fridge until the rules and consequences soak in. I know this sounds silly but it does work. If your spouse is unwilling to do these things then it is time to sever the ties, because it is obvious they are not interested in making the marriage work.

Best wishes,

Joe