ROA And 45 Colt Bullets

[rodwha]

I want to hear from you fellows that use 45 Colt lead bullets in your Old Army.
I've heard too many stories os people using standard 45 Colt lead bullets without issue. What's you story?
I want to give it a go, but I'd be very unhappy if I bought a bunch of bullets I can't use...

[Nobade]

They work fine if you can get them loaded straight and they are the right size. For instance, the chambers on my ROA are all right at .454". So I need boolits that size. But the only way I have found to get them loaded without tipping is to use a loading press off the gun. And even then if they have square bases they are very difficult to get started correctly. I could use .453" boolits but then they back off the powder charges from recoil.

I also have found they don't hit to the sights, velocity is lower than with balls, and they weren't as accurate. I suppose for hunting where you needed the best penetration possible they would be an option, but for normal shooting the ball with a lubed felt wad under it wins out. For me anyway.

Another cute little boolit that does work reasonably well is the Biglube EPP-UG. You can get those from Springfield here on this forum, it weighs the same as a ball but has a huge lube groove so they can be shot without wads and it is short enough to load with the gun's loading lever. There is also a specific ROA boolit I believe he makes as well but I don't have any experience with that one.

[rodwha]

Got to talking to a fella on another forum who has used 45 Colt bullets in his ROA, and .454" didn't work. He said he had to resize it to .452". I thought that sounded odd. I tried measuring my chambers with an old dial caliper and often came up with .453", though I'm not sure how accurate it was. Ruger told me they are .452-.454".

I'm not sure if he loaded off of the gun or not. And it seems as though flat base bullets would be hard to load straight. I wish I knew of someone who had some that I could finagle a few to try.

Masscaster (here) is now making a 230 grn bullet he fixes up from a 45-70 mold to have different sized driving bands. They are much more reasonably priced than the Kaido bullets I bought ($40/100 + shipping).

Maybe I'll give Springfield a holler and see what he has. 230 grns would be OK, but I'd prefer something with more weight as it may be used for hogs. Hopefully not wounded ones, but it may need to fill that roll as well. Otherwise I'd be OK with RB for our little Texas deer (75-125 lbs average).

[Fishman]

Lee made a mould that was similar to a .45 colt bullet but with smaller diameter base. I have one in a hp.

[DLCTEX]

I chamfered the base of some 255 gr boolits with an RCBS case mouth chamfering tool and got them to load ok. I was thinking a BB mould would work,but decided it wasn't worth the hassel and just shoot round ball now. I have the Lee mould for a 230 gr. boolit that works well, but it's round nose.

[rodwha]

I've wondered how a gas checked bullet (minus the gas check) would work.
FN bullets seem to be the most recommended, but after having seen some projectile tests done with the Old Army I wouldn't care to use a RN for hunting as they veered off course and came out of the side of the 1 gal water jugs lined of for his penetration tests. He only got 7 jugs when he likely would have had closer to 10.

[Good Cheer]

If you can find a mold of a design you want to try and it casts big enough... use a Lyman type lubrizer to size the back half of the bullets to slip into the chambers. Never had a ROA but that works with 1858's and some of the Colt models reproductions.

Or, better yet, have a set of blocks modified to suit your gun.
This is a .375 round ball mold modified to be an adjustable length hollow based conical. The cylindrical portion is the right diameter for Piettas and the spherical part shears off on the chamber mouth. The same thing can be done with an old .44 or .45 mold.
http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy192/SNARGLEFLERK/blocksandplug1_zps5e4aa834.jpg

http://i791.photobucket.com/albums/yy192/SNARGLEFLERK/36moldtestJPG_zpsb6fd7f9c.jpg

[rodwha]

I figure I need to get into casting and have Lee modify their 255 grn 45 Colt mold as Kaido had them do for him. I like the bullets, but they are just too expensive from him.

It'll be a while before I get into casting though...

[rodwha]

Is that an adjustable mold?

[Good Cheer]

Is that an adjustable mold?

You bet. Reckoned that was the only way to be sure to get the right one.

[Omnivore]

Accurate Molds has a couple of heel-based conical molds, with lube grooves, for percussion revolvers and he'll make them to your specs. Buffalo Arms has one for the regular 44s, but it may be too small for a ROA. Lee has one too, for regular repros and for the larger chambers of the ROA. The heel base is the key-- you want it to slip down into the chamber easily for a bit, before it starts to seat hard. In both 44 caliber and 36 (Remington Army and Colt '61 Navy) the Lee conicals I have seem to shoot just about as accurate as the RBs, with a small difference in POI. Experiment with different charges and you'll likely find a load that works well.

Millions of combustable envelope revolver cartridges were used during the time of The War Between the States and later, and none of them used round ball as far as I know. The cartridges were loaded with a variety of conicals, up to about 255 or 260 grains for a 44 Army, but most were a bit lighter. Point being that conicals were reasonably well thought of back in the day, at least as a military load, though you should look at the twist rates used then, compared to your modern guns.

If you're using a caliper to measure your chambers, you're probably reading about a thou small, so your chambers are probably .454". To accurately measure a small hole like that you need a hole gauge or a small snap gauge.

Once you start casting your own, you'll never go back.

[rodwha]

The heeled base is what I thought was necessary, but I've read a few accounts from people using flat based lead bullets for the 45 Colt. Mostly the Hornady bullet.

I saw a video done using RB, conicals, and bullets from two Old Armies using Goex and T7. The conicals kept flying out of the side of his water jugs after the 7th jug. They likely would have made it to the 10th or so. If they are likely to veer off I'd not want that for hunting with. A flat nosed bullet seems to be the ticket.

Casting only makes sense. It's the start up that has me stalled. I still have other needs before I jump into something else.

[Omnivore]

If they are likely to veer off I'd not want that for hunting with.

Performance on water jugs is questionable as a predictor of performance in tissue. Animals aren't pure water. Even if they were, how many game animals are you going to shoot with a pistol, that are thicker than 7 one-gallon jugs?

We need to look at the videos showing conicals from the ROA used on game animals. Modern cartridge guns use conicals exclusively, and often at similar weights, diameters and velocities, and so it would come down to individual bullet designs and barrel twist rates, as I alluded above.

You can still buy heel-based bullets made by Buffalo Arms for percussion revolvers. They may have one for the ROA. I've tried them (180 grains, .450" dia.) in my Remington Army repro, and they performed very well against paper. Interestingly, they also resulted in a more efficient burn of the Goex 3F and came out faster than round ball, with the exact same powder charge.

[Good Cheer]

Just an idea on conical design for percussion revolvers, with a mind towards not sacrificing powder space...

Lube grooves mean a longer design for a given weight.
Unless it's a total wadcutter you will have lube space around the perimeter of the ogive at the front of the cylinder. That reduces the need for a lube groove. And, if the rearwards part of the bullet slips into the chamber, then that is another location for some lube. I use a lanolin-olive oil-beeswax concoction that works well that way.
The next incarnation of that conical shown above is going to be flat based adjustable design for a 1858 Remington .44, probably tinkered up out of a .451 round ball mold.

[Good Cheer]

By the way, if you can find a Lymans 452066 they work great in Dragoons and Walkers even if you are loosing out on some powder space. Got one from Lymans when they were selling off the out of tolerance molds for next to nothing in 1982. Never used it for nothing else!

[curator]

When I first got my ROA I was hot to load regular .45 Colt boolits in it too. I found the Lee .45-255 RNFP would shoot fine if I loaded it backwards. Mine cast at .4545 from pure lead with 2% tin added and my ROA chambers are right on at .4525-.453. It was relatively easy to load them straight, nose-first. Great accuracy (out to about 20 yards) with a load of 20 grains of FFFg and about 10 grains (measure) cream of wheat filler. Eventually, I sprung for the Lee .456-220 heeled bullet mould made for this gun. These bullets are easier to load and accuracy and range is much better.

[eddie56]

Not sure how it will work out but I am going to try the Lyman 45 Devaster in mine being soft lead it won't be much good for hunting I don't figure but should be a fun plinker.Guess I'll find out this week.I will have to bevel the base for sure but doesn't sound like to much of a problem.

[rodwha]

Which bullet is that? I don't see one designated that way.

[eddie56]

61764



It is a 180grn. hollow point Devastator.Made for 45acp.It is in pic.

[rodwha]

I'd think those bullets may be OK for medium game. If a RB from a percussion revolver can give a passthrough on a deer I'd think those may do OK. May or may not pass through, but ought to be fairly destructive. And it does have a bit more weight.

I'd be concerned that it may deform the nose when seated.

[eddie56]

I load mine on a press that you can change ends on like a sizer nose punch.But I need to come up with one for this boolit.But its a fun way to pass time.I'll let you know how it turns out.

[Dan Cash]

I cast a Lyman #452630 semi wadcutter from nearly pure lead. It weighs 200 grains and measures .4525-.453. They are then pan lubed with the same lube that I use in my .45-70 loads and fired as cast. They enter the cahmber, even when fouled, with ease. When the bullet makes contact with the powder charge, I apply very firm pressure on the rammer which swells the bullet to a tight fit in the chamber.

These bullets shoot well and the fouling is soft. Fifty rounds with out cleaning is easy to do. I have tried the larger and heavier bullets but they are very difficult to load (.454) and the heavier bullets preclude a decent charge. The 200 gr. wad cutter leaves room for 32-34 grain of 3Fg which is a serious load. With a 250 or so grain bullet I can only get 20-25 gr. under it and it leaves a good deal to be desired in the energy department.

[Dan Cash]

I'm not sure if he loaded off of the gun or not. And it seems as though flat base bullets would be hard to load straight. I wish I knew of someone who had some that I could finagle a few to try.



Send me your address and I will send you some of the ones I use, all lubed and ready to go.
Dan

[rodwha]

Mike Beliveau has a video in which he tested both models of Old Army with both Goex and Triple 7 using RB's, conicals, and 255 grn bullets by Kaido. The 255 grn bullets with 30 grns of 3F Goex produced 744 fps and 314 ft/lbs, but 25 grns of 3F T7 produced 920 fps and 479 ft/lbs. And there is a little more chamber room.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LP_dwo2nThA

With Kaido's 240 grn version of the same bullet I have used 35 grns of T7. It has dropped my loading lever twice now. But I've since reduced that to 30 grns as my group size was bigger than my allowance. My standard for hunting is a 4" group at 25 yds. Granted I don't have a solid rest, my groups are too large (6"+) at 25 yds.