Annealing concern

[OD#3]

Most of my case annealing has been limited to .45 Colt, mostly just to prevent gas blowby. In this I have been very successful, and I've gotten the added benefit of longer case life before mouth splits. I recently endeavered to apply the same process to about 200 pieces of .30 Carbine brass due to unknown number of previous firings/reloadings. My process involves one of the common methods employed--that of an automotive socket close to the case diameter that is chucked into a drill by means of a bolt secured through the hole in the back of the socket. I anneal in a very dark room (I have to wait until my eyes adjust before I can even see the cases). I spin the case mouth in the hottest part of a propane flame until I see the case mouth just start to turn red. It took an average of 6 seconds in the flame to reach this point with the .30 Carbine brass. Then I immediately point the socket down, letting the case fall into a bucket of cold water. I usually do this to squeaky-clean polished brass. This time, I just cleaned the brass well in hot detergent water followed by some cleaning with lemishine water. This left the cases clean but a little tarnished--more of a dark golden color.

Anyway, I was alarmed after dying the cases and seeing that while the case neck was brass colored, and there was a definite line of demarcation where that supposed annealing stopped, the rest of the case had turned blue/purple--all the way down through the case head. I can't imagine that the case head got anywhere near hot enough to be annealed too, but the blue/purple color has me concerned. How do these look? Did I just ruin 200 pieces of brass?

http://i1035.photobucket.com/albums/a437/johncantiusgarand/100_0932_zps2d5f218a.jpg

[Fluxed]

That worries me.
It might be that you did not clean them before annealing which altered the color change.
Maybe you could do a few more while holding them in your fingers. Try to do them the same as before and let your fingers tell you if there's a problem. If you can hold some in our fingers and get that same look without feeling heat in your fingers, you're good to go - otherwise I'd be afraid to shoot them.

[Pepe Ray]

I believe Fluxed has the right slant on it.
I've never annealed a case unless the head was safely shielded in water. As I recall the instructions for annealing by dipping in molten lead require that you hold the case in your bare fingers. You will know when it's done.
I wouldn't load them.

Pepe Ray

[GRUMPA]

I've had that happen to me only once and I did some real hard thinking and solved the problem. There's more than 1 thing that will do this, if the propane is cold the evaporation rate (liquid to gas) slows down dramatically taking longer for the brass to get hot.

Even though you can't see any grime/dirt on the case I've had the same result but made sure the case was really clean and no more problem.

I started with just 1 propane torch but graduated to 2 propane torches 180 degrees from each other both pointing at the brass and this is what made all the difference for me, now it takes me less than 3 sec per piece.

Just my .02

60740

[OD#3]

So you think perhaps this was related to the brass having some tarnish on it to begin with? I didn't notice the color immediately. The cases looked just like my annealed .45 Colt brass until I took it out of the drying oven. I dry my brass in the oven at 220 degrees F. I'm hoping that the heat just accelerated oxidation of the brass turning it blue. However, the neck stayed yellow, so I just don't know. I just tried the suggestion of holding the brass base with my fingers and seeing how long it took to become too hot to hold. At 6 seconds it was getting warm. At 8 seconds I dropped it out of reflex from the heat. Perhaps a few pieces made it to the 8 second mark when I was annealing, but almost all of them were dropped into the water at the 6 second mark. I just can't see how what I did could have heated the head to the annealing temperature, but that blue color is disconcerting. I just pulled a factory Magtec cartridge and mangled the empty case with a pair of pliers, then compared one of my annealed cases with the same headstamp. Although the case neck on the annealed case felt ever so slightly softer than the factory fresh case, it was very hard to tell the difference. The case wall near the head on both cases took all my hand strength to crush and felt exactly the same. What do you think?

[USMC87]

I make custom knives and sometimes temper certain steels with a torch, The way you explained is that a socket covered the base of the brass ? Well what it seems is that the socket held the heat inside and transferred to the base faster creating a heat channel, than holding in your hand. When I temper steel with a torch you watch the colors change , In steel blue is anneled or softened, I would'nt try loading those I would be afraid the base is weakened.

[220swiftfn]

I'd lay odds on that being a result of the Lemishine rinse........ Citric acid still on the case when heated. When I anneal (admittedly, this is for bottleneck, but the principle is the same) I do it to clean, tumbled brass and watch for the heat ring on the shoulder-body junction. When everything cools, they look just like arsenal cases with the annealing ending 3/8-1/2" below the shoulder. When you heat the brass to glowing, what you're doing is burning out the zinc, so I'd be careful there (make sure that it still has some "spring" to it, if not, it's just copper now.....)


Dan

[GRUMPA]

I read thru your post OD#3 and from all indications the 2 posts below your last one brought some very valid points. When annealing brass there are certain things that a person will notice when doing this.

Personally I stay away from annealing while holding onto the cases for 2 reasons, I don't have the sensitivity I once had and I just do so many a week it's counterproductive.

The socket you use to hold the case is a good idea and all but like what was mentioned it can and will hold heat, something to me that's not something one uses for a prolonged amount of time.

USMC87 I believe is on the right track when advising for you to NOT use what is in the picture and would scrap out that batch, I know it may be hard to do but I would error on the side of caution in this instance.

Lemi-Shine can and will discolor the brass but from my experience it wont turn the brass blue but more of a dark color, this still happens to me if I'm rushed with my orders which happens more times that I care to count, but I'm almost getting a panic attack to get orders out in a timely manner.

I'll give you a suggestion though, instead of using the socket use a drill bit and just slide the case over that and let it bottom out on the bit. I made something very similar to this only with 2 torches to speed up my production rate without spending around $400 for an annealer.

When you use a socket your not going to be able to notice anything going on till after the fact, if you try the drill bit method you can keep an eye on it all the time, no mysteries or guess work involved.

Another thing that has me scratching my head is that your putting them in an oven for drying. I take it your drying them prior to annealing them, when I do that (I have a gas oven) I put them on a cookie sheet ( extreme caution with the other half advised) and dry them for a couple of hours. Hard water rinse will leave compounds on the brass that are an issue which will leave the brass a darker color after annealing.

Hope that helps

[r1kk1]

This is what I use:

http://www.tempil.com/products/tempilaq-indicating-liquids/

It works very well. I use the 750 degree on case mouth/neck and on very short cartridges 450 degree on web as well.

It takes out the guesswork of time and temp.

Take care

r1kk1

[hemiallen]

It sure looks like the base on those got to the same temperature you would expect just the first 3/8 or so inch , or about the same length of a standard rifle case's neck and shoulder.


To see if you wrecked the brass, you can try and crimp the mouth end with a pair of vicegrips set to clamp on a case tight when fully closed, then using another case start working back towards the base. The too soft brass should dent and stay dented, then once you have the vicegrips set, try the same on an un-annealed case, and post the pictures.


I believe you got them too hot! but softness as mentioned above is more important than color.


Allen

[savingprivateyang]

I also believe there is a high possibility that you have softened the case heads. I use the same method as you (socket on a drill) and after every 5-10 cases, I dunk the socket into the ice bath so it doesn't retain any heat. If you don't cool the socket, it gets hot and stays hot, therefore transfering the heat to the case heads. Each case stays in the socket longer than they do in the flame, so if the socket is sufficiently hot, it will anneal the brass also.

[mac60]

If you're letting the case turn red you're getting it way too hot. I use the same method you describe, but I do it in a well lit area. I watch carefully and when the case turns a blue color and migrates just past the shoulder I dump it into the water. The bases might be softened on the cases in your pic.

[OD#3]

I really appreciate all the responses. It seems as if the color is the only real cause for concern. The process I used should not have heated the heads enough to soften anything. As to dunking the socket in water, I don't think I did that as often as every 5-10 cases, but I did dunk it a few times during the process as a precaution. It was never hot to the touch, only warmer than room temperature. I've read many articles on annealing, and while most authoritative ones now say that red means that the case is too hot, it is the only indicator I can reliably see. In the past with .45 Colt, I used to wait until the entire neck was glowing orange. That was much hotter than necessary, and the case necks were softer than is desirable, but it didn't ruin the cases for my purpose. Gas blowby disappeared entirely, which was my main goal.

On these .30 Carbine cases, once-reloaded brass had gotten mixed up with once-fired brass, and uniformity was my only goal. Armed with more information on annealing, and now realizing that my previous attempts had gone too far, I darkened the room even more and waited until the case mouth only started to turn red. This was probably a bit farther than necessary, but it was just a ring of red--a sliver of red; the neck wasn't glowing at all. And based on my hand-held tests since then, I don't think the case heads got hotter than 150 degrees F. The blue color seen in the photos only showed up after taking the cases out of the oven for drying--an oven set at 220 degrees F. for about 1/2 hour.

It sounds like I'm arguing that the cases are fine, but I'm really just trying to make clear that my annealing process heated the case mouths much less than any cases I've ever annealed before, but I have no explanation for the color. Based on the color, the bases certainly don't look fine. But based on my process, I just don't see how they could possibly have gotten heated to anywhere near the annealing temperature. I guess I'm just hoping that someone has an explanation for the color showing up on brass that hasn't been subjected to annealing temperatures.

The only things that varied in my annealing process this time from all my .45 Colt annealing in the past was that I've never done .30 Carbine before, I used a shorter time in the flame and I didn't tumble/polish the brass beforehand; I opted instead for just cleaning the brass with boiling detergent water followed by lemi-shine water. Even when I boiled the cases, I didn't let them sit on the bottom of the pot. They were suspended in a collander about half-way up the pot. I read about people all the time who wait until the neck glows orange and don't even drop the cases in water during the annealing process, but no one has reported that the entire case below the annealing line turned blue. I waited until only the mouth starts to turn dull red, immediately dropped the case in water, and upon drying in the oven I get an alarming color on the base that screams "the cartridge head got annealed". Out of caution, I haven't loaded those cases, but I'm still hoping for some explanation besides temperature for the color. The tempilaq proponents usually promote that method as assuring that the case neck doesn't get too soft. I don't remember seeing that method argued as a way of keeping the case body from getting too hot. Again, thanks for all the replies.

[220swiftfn]

Let's try this another way....... Take one of your cases, and put it in the socket that you used. I'd be willing to bet that the sharp change between burnt looking and bright is right where the socket ends (in other words, the flame from the torch was oxidizing the exposed brass, and not the area protected by the socket.) The blue color towards the base is probably from the lemishine being left on the case, and then being subjected to the lower temperature of drying in your oven. Take a close look at Grumpa's picture, this is the level of annealing you should be going for, and it's not reached by ANYTHING glowing!!!! Take a polished (clean) piece of brass, and in good light, take the torch to it. You'll see a ring of color start creeping down the case. With something like Grumpa's brass, letting it air cool when that ring hits the shoulder/body junction will get the results shown there.... (with the Colt and Carbine brass, probably let it cool when that ring gets about 3/8" down from the mouth, maybe 1/2". If after cool, the case shows annealing for half the length, you might want to pull it from the torch sooner, maybe 1/4"?) I'll say this again, if it's glowing, you're burning off the zinc, leaving only copper.


Dan

[savingprivateyang]

Ok, after reading what you said, I thought of something. When you annealed, the section of the case that you annealed gets a "scale" (not sure if that's what it's called) built up on it, and the rest of the case doesn't. When you heat the cases up in the oven, I'm guessing the un-scaled portion get's an oxidized layer (blue) caused by the cleaning solutions + extended heating period. This is the only logical thing I can think of. If this is wrong in any way, someone please correct me.

[OD#3]

Again, thanks for all the help, guys. As to the socket, the only one I found that was the right inside diameter was pretty short; it only covered about 1/3 of the case and was never exposed to the flame. The sharp line of color change coincides with the edge of the flame--only the brass that was touched by the flame stayed yellow. I'm leaning towards savingprivateyang's theory, but out of an abundance of caution, I'm still leery of loading these. I spent a few hours today loading 45-70. As these had been fired with some pretty hot loads, I annealed them first, using even less heat. This time, I just used a measured count of 6 seconds per case, and unlike the 30 carbine, this didn't even heat them enough to glow at all. What did happen at the 6 second mark was that the flame above the case suddenly began turning from blue to orange. After drying in the oven at a lower temp this time (175 degrees F.), They came out looking like GRUMPA's cases. I've read before that if the flame changes color that you've probably gone a little too hot, but I was pleased with this batch. The first time I did .45 Colt cases, I'm sure I burned off a bunch of zink. Fortunately, it didn't seem to matter with the low-pressure .45 Colt. The only difficulty I ever experienced with those dead-soft case mouths was sticky extraction out of a S&W 2nd model hand ejector that had been converted to .45 Colt from .455. The chambers were rough from the chamber reaming, and the soft cases expanded into those ridges. Given the revolver's age and the questionable quality on the conversion, I was using very light loads behind a lighter bullet. As expected with such soft case mouths, gas blowby was non-existent.

[220swiftfn]

Again, thanks for all the help, guys. As to the socket, the only one I found that was the right inside diameter was pretty short; it only covered about 1/3 of the case and was never exposed to the flame. The sharp line of color change coincides with the edge of the flame--only the brass that was touched by the flame stayed yellow. I'm leaning towards savingprivateyang's theory, but out of an abundance of caution, I'm still leery of loading these. I spent a few hours today loading 45-70. As these had been fired with some pretty hot loads, I annealed them first, using even less heat. This time, I just used a measured count of 6 seconds per case, and unlike the 30 carbine, this didn't even heat them enough to glow at all. What did happen at the 6 second mark was that the flame above the case suddenly began turning from blue to orange. After drying in the oven at a lower temp this time (175 degrees F.), They came out looking like GRUMPA's cases. I've read before that if the flame changes color that you've probably gone a little too hot, but I was pleased with this batch. The first time I did .45 Colt cases, I'm sure I burned off a bunch of zink. Fortunately, it didn't seem to matter with the low-pressure .45 Colt. The only difficulty I ever experienced with those dead-soft case mouths was sticky extraction out of a S&W 2nd model hand ejector that had been converted to .45 Colt from .455. The chambers were rough from the chamber reaming, and the soft cases expanded into those ridges. Given the revolver's age and the questionable quality on the conversion, I was using very light loads behind a lighter bullet. As expected with such soft case mouths, gas blowby was non-existent.

I would agree with the possibility of "getting away with it" in the low pressure rounds (45-70 qualifies as this too, unless you're loading for a Mauser or No. 1 Ruger). The problem that you're running into with the Webley is that the case isn't springing back anymore, causing the sticky extraction... However, the .30 Carbine IS a higher pressure round, and as such, my personal advise would be to chalk them up as a "learning experience" and chunk them into the scrap bin in an unloadable state. As I said before, there's a bit of "finesse" to annealing, and sometimes it's not even the same amount of time for each case of the same caliber, or even the same headstamp. (Thicker case wall is usually the cause of this, but grain structure can affect it too), which is why I advised you to keep an eye on the color ring, it's the most accurate indicator.


Dan

[o6Patient]

Looks like the wrong end has been softened from the pictures, I always use a heat sink (water) at the case head,
this not only protects the head but the heat is progressively dissipated from the mouth down.