W296/H110 in .38spl?

[BLTsandwedge1]

I was looking through a 1987 Speer reloading manual at the local shop- and found both 296 and H110 as powders recommended for +P .38 special rounds- velocities were roughly equivelent to Blue Dot under a 158g whatever. I'm wondering why these powders are no longer recommended in the .38 case- too much pressure is my first thought.........

Regards........

[BlueMoon]

I would think you could get better accuracy and use less powder with the faster powders we can get now unless you have a long barrel. I read about a guy getting super velocites using SR4756 using 38spl cases but why bother if you're shooting it in a .357. If you're using a regular 38spl gun, I would stick to the regular loads.

Bill

[9.3X62AL]

Actually, I think "too little pressure" might be a more likely reason that 296/110 is not recommended for the 38 Special. The 38 Special +P ceiling is at 22.5K PSI or thereabouts, and 296/110 is just beginning to get efficient at such pressures. It likes 30K+ a LOT better--remember, these were developed by W-W for the 30 M-1 Carbine.

That is not to say that 296/110 WOULDN'T work in 38 Special--just not as well as other fuels, and in smaller amounts. Our service load for many years was the W-W 110 grain +P in 38 Special, and I made up reloads that matched the load's velocity (1050 FPS in 4" barrel) using WW-231 with zero pressure signs.

[fecmech]

Blt--If you look in the Lyman Cast bullet handbook you will see starting loads for .357 mags with H110 that show approx +P .38 pressures. The one I tried was with 358429 and H110. If you look at the mag OAL and Spl Oal we are only talking .016 difference. The 2400 load for that bullet kind of verified an old Lyman manual load of 10.5/2400/358429 in the .38 spl as not being too far afield for a .38. I cut back the H110 load .5 grs and got 1064fps out of my K 38 and 868fps out of my Chief. The 10.5/2400/358429 did 1013 fps and 804. My understanding of the problems with downloading H110/296 is squib loads resulting in stuck bullets not overpressures. I got good uniformity and accuracy but you are burning a hell of a lot more powder for another 100-130 fps. I can do 975 fps with the 158rn and the Lyman +p load of of 4.5 Bullseye. Nick

[D.Mack]

I can't disagree with any of the above, but the reason might just be that you are looking at a different manual. With all the powders,bullets and primers available, there are literaly thousands of good combinations, and just because something isn't listed doesn't make it bad , but, stick to what is listed in up-to date loading manuals. They have pressure testing equiptment to make sure loads are both safe and consistent, notice I didnt say accurate, but alittle experementation on your part, and you can find a load you like. Also one of the Speer manuals from the mid 80's had a number of HOT!!! loads that were reduced in the later editions, so reference several reloading manuals, and if a load isn't listed, let someone risk thier face and fingers. D.M.

[David R]

I was loading for my 32-20 with a 118 gr boolit. I was usijng 8 grains of SR4759, but it doesn't flow through my powder measure well at all. SOO I found some 2400 data and loaded em up. Went to the range and I remember why I stopped using it in small cases. Veritcal stringing, or incomplete or inconsistant ignition. I think H110, and 296 would have the same problem. Not enough pressure to make it really go BANG consistantly.

Lyman manual states they don't include loads that show large SD or erratic velocities.

[Scrounger]

I was loading for my 32-20 with a 118 gr boolit. I was usijng 8 grains of SR4759, but it doesn't flow through my powder measure well at all. SOO I found some 2400 data and loaded em up. Went to the range and I remember why I stopped using it in small cases. Veritcal stringing, or incomplete or inconsistant ignition. I think H110, and 296 would have the same problem. Not enough pressure to make it really go BANG consistantly.

Lyman manual states they don't include loads that show large SD or erratic velocities.

How many grains? If it was anywhere near a max load, it should work well. If you want .32 S&W velocities in a .32-20, use Unique.

[David R]

Scrounger,
I used 9 grains which is a max load for that cartridge. I could go up, its in my contender, but I think Unique or Blue dot will ignite better. Still only a 118 gr boolit with no crimp.

Been shooting a lot of cast lately, I ran out of Unique, and Herco. I have 6 lbs 231, but can't find any data for 32-20 and 8 lbs 2400.

I put 4 shots in a 3/4" group @ 50 yards with the 4759 load, and 5 in about 3" with the 2400, just a verticle string.

[Scrounger]

Scrounger,
I used 9 grains which is a max load for that cartridge. I could go up, its in my contender, but I think Unique or Blue dot will ignite better. Still only a 118 gr boolit with no crimp.

Been shooting a lot of cast lately, I ran out of Unique, and Herco. I have 6 lbs 231, but can't find any data for 32-20 and 8 lbs 2400.

I put 4 shots in a 3/4" group @ 50 yards with the 4759 load, and 5 in about 3" with the 2400, just a verticle string.

What diameter are you sizing? I think TC barrels are .308.

[BLTsandwedge1]

Too little pressure makes sense to me. That manual is 18 years old. H110 and W296 are, in my mind, magnum powders for .357/.44 (among other uses) but not for .38.

Now here's a different twist. Notice in the new Lee loading manual that there will be a set of recipes for "jacketed," "lead," and "bullet" for the same cartridge. Many bullet types/weights will have an obvious bias toward one manufacturer or another. Good marketing. But that's why I like to have 4 or 5 different manuals to cross-reference.

Regards.............

[David R]

Scrounger, the barrel is .308, but I size em .310 so they fit the little fragile case and fit the chamber correctly. I seat em to just before the rifling which happens to be with the first driving band exposed. This gun is MOST OAL sensative with these boolits.

[BlueMoon]

I was at the range today and had some 38spl cases with a RCBS-158-gc, about 162grns lubed and gc'ed, loaded with AA#4100 powder that is a little slower than the #9. My crony was acting up and giving readings from 975-1200fps but all were hitting my target at 50yds from a 6" GP100 barrel. I used Fed200 primers and 10grns AA4100. I was mostly testing this powder in .357 but guessed a load for a few 38spl cases too.

My .357 loads had the same bullet with 15.8grns AA4100 and I got average 3 of 1447fps with extreme spread of 27.8. It beat out my loading of LilGun on accuracy and a little on velocity.

Bill

[mroliver77]

I have a 38 sp. in a large frame Astra that belongs to my daughter. I have taken to shooting it alot. It does not like fast powders. It leads more than acceptable no matter what is tried with the faster powders. I picked up some Blue Dot and gave it a try just foe kicks. Leadinfg was almost non existant! My RCBS cast manual lists Blue Dot , 2400, H110/296 and even 4227 loads for the 38spcl in as light as a 150gr boolit. I have tried all the powders and found the 110/296 to leave lots of unburnt powder in the case with the light bullets. The 175gr at +P pressures let the 110 burn decent enough using WSR primers. Right now I am using +P doses of WC820 under the 158 and 175 and all is well with this gun. After some lite firelapping and about 1 gillion rounds fired through it the faster powders are leaving less lead and I have found some Clays loads working fairly good. So the 110/296 will work but why use them as we are using almost 3 times as much. Jay

[nevada duke]

The .38 Special will respond well to loads with W296 or H110 as the propellant. But consider all aspects before going this way. The strongest cases that I have found are the GI .38 spl. cases from the Vietnam era. Using these cases, the CCI magnum primer and 125 gr. J-word bullets, you will have a maximum load, up in the 1200 fps to 1300 fps range depending on your gun and barrel length. I DO NOT recommend these loads, but some of the larger frame revolvers will do fine. I had a S&W 38-44 Heavy Duty once that allowed me to try some things, I don't know about some of these new ultra light small frame things that are now on the market. IMHO, W296-H110 powders are only for MAXIMUM loads, ie a casefull. Be carefull.

Hoping that this is usefull, regards from Nevada duke

[Doctor Sam]

Very good advice above re manuals. I mailed my Speer manual back to Vernon Speer years ago after blowing primers in two rifle reloads based on their data. Much too hot.
Modern techniques measure the pressure and are far superior to the "good old days" of manuals.

[243winxb]

I was looking through a 1987 Speer reloading manual at the local shop- and found both 296 and H110 as powders recommended for +P .38 special rounds- velocities were roughly equivelent to Blue Dot under a 158g whatever. I'm wondering why these powders are no longer recommended in the .38 case- too much pressure is my first thought.........

Regards........ From wincherster reloader's manual 1999 "NOTE 296 powder is considered to be one of the best powders for use in magnum handgun cartridger. Recommended for these loads are the use of a Winchester or wincherster mangnum primer and a very heavy crimp (high bullet pull). Failure to follow this procedure could result in poor ignition and/or squib loads under extreme circumstances , particularyly in loads where less than 90% of the available powder space is being used (low loading density). Do not reduce powder chargers with 296 powder. Any further reduction in powder charge or change in components can cause dangerous pressures"