.454 Casull Load For Large Animal Defense....

[Southern Shooter]

If the bullet pictured below were at 362 grains, 18-21 bhn, and had a muzzle velocity of a little over 1,600 FPS from a 20" barrel rifle.....

Would it be an acceptable defensive round in northwest mountain areas where large, startled, peeved animals could possibly be encountered?

60650

[bobthenailer]

It may not be possible to reach 1,600 fps with the 365 gr bullet pictured in a revolver, although 1,400 fps is obtainable & should do the job on them big critters.

[jmort]

It will kill anything on earth. So, yes, it would work, and work well

[Southern Shooter]

Sorry. I forgot to include that this would be fired from a 20" barrel rifle.

[GLynn41]

no you did not it is in your first post :)

[runfiverun]

well.
i'd say you have a high chance of creating enough blunt force trauma to make the animal go away.
you should have good penetration,and a good wound cavity also.
i wouldn't rely on antimony to get your bhn though.

[Southern Shooter]

My cast bullets are water-quenched clip-on wheel weights. Would those be hard enough?

[quilbilly]

I didn't know we still had wooly mammoths up here but it would do the job on them too at 1400 fps at inside of 50 yards. Softer lead would work just fine if you want the boolit not to break up on impact against the skull especially since there would likely be a gas check on that boolit judging by the design. Try the "wet phone book " terminal ballistics test (14" of soaked phone books) on it and put a piece of 7/16" piece of plywood about an inch into the phone books to simulate a bone and see what happens. Bet the boolit comes through if shot at 40 yards.

[Gunnut 45/454]

I run my Lee cast 300 gr WFN's out my Puma at 1800 + fps and they will stomp anything on four legs! I'd bet they'd zip end to end on just about any critter. Heck the 240 gr XTP mags at 2200 fps would do the same!

[MT Chambers]

The Casull would be good on large game, the 45/70 better.

[taco650]

Bears & cougars are the only "biters" in the PNW woods. Usually they run away when startled, especially the cats but... Your bullet and load will be fine. If you're really worried, you could throw a 300 or 338 mag over your other shoulder just in case.

[dbar]

I love shootin out my 2.5 barrel Roger Alaskan. I am considering buying the Rossi in 454 C

[dbar]

Why would the 45-70 be better? there is nothing the 454 Casull will not take down in North America. It was designed to take down Grizzly's and I have seen it used to take down big game in Africa (Elephants and Rhino's) Oh My.

[dbar]

Why would the 45-70 be better? there is nothing the 454 Casull will not take down in North America. It was designed to take down Grizzly's and I have seen it used to take down big game in Africa (Elephants and Rhino's) Oh My.

[dbar]

By the way thats a Ruger Alaskan, I have not shot a Roger Alaskan Yet........

[MT Gianni]

The question is can you shove the weapon in question in whatevers mouth that is chewing on you for the second shot? Then can you get a rifle in play when said mama bear starts her charge @ 20 yards or less? Many ranges are set up to practice fast access draw for a handgun but few allow the muzzle to start over your shoulder and get downrange. Finding a place to practice fast access to a rifle is a larger problem than it is with a pistol.

[MT Chambers]

I shoot alot of .454 handgun and even more .45/70, the 400-500gr. slugs (wfn) of the 45/70 are going much faster then the 300-400gr .454 handgun slugs, giving much more knock down and penetration.
For our big game(canada) we are not allowed to use pistols, but i can assure you that the 45/70 works like no other.

[RobS]

Considering your neck of the woods, actually just about anywhere in the US with some exclusions, you'll have what you need for penetration and the design's meplat is ample to make a good wound channel. If I were going to be looking down at a grizzly bear I would probably prefer to do it with my 375 H&H. The flip side though, if I was not hanging out in the presence of an animal that wanted me as lunch then I'd feel comfortable with the SRH/Rossi 454 Casull combo.

[badbob454]

i believe guns and ammo had an article stating the 454 casull was capable of going through 4-5 feet of meat and bone , wow thats when i had to buy one , super redhawk 7 1/4 '' barrel all the gun you need ... the ruger alaskan is a 454 casull with a snubby barrel 2-3'' advertized a good defence gun for big mean critters , so yes plenty of gun..

[jmort]

It will go through more than five feet. A .375 H&H with an expanding bullet will not penetrate as far as the .454 with a cast bullet, not even close.

[fivegunner]

YES I think that bullet will work well on anything it hits, the trick is to put the bullet in the right spot everytime. I have two Freedom Arms 454 casull`s my load for them is A LBT 310. gr. WFNGC at 1575fps . it hits hard .

[missionary5155]

Good morning
In my simplistic thinking I try to compare todays desires to the old days reality. If a today's load can equal lets say a 38/55 BP load or a 45-60 BP load then probably it is going to work well.
Your 365 grainer at just 1350 fps would equal a hot 45/60 load so any exces velocity is going to be that much more icing. That huge metplate is going to transfer energy fast and the softer type mix should hold together well and flatten out even a bit more. Should cut a good channel.
I would have no hesitation to rely on it. Have a 454 BFR and the 300 gc load I prefer at 1550+ I feel is going to be sufficient to do what would need done. A longer barreled lever gun adding that extra 250 fps would again just be more icing. My question and hope is whether I could get that "golden slug" into the brain or upper spine to actually stop the beast. But then there is no choice so at least you will have enough brute power to give yourself an even fight.
Mike in Peru

[Ranch Dog]

Shot this bad boy last night with my R92 chambered in 454 Casull.
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I'm using my 45 Colt bullet, the TLC454-290-RF, sized at. 452" and seated to an OAL of 1.800" which is .005" off the lands. It is pushed along with 34-grains of Lil' Gun for 2095 FPS at only 48.0 KPSI.

Very intriguing cartridge as this load represents the best possible effort from my beloved 444T with a similar bullet weight yet the Casull has more potential available.

I have a TLC452-330-RF in the works and am going to use it to learn more about alloys and treating them while I push the rifle and cartridge to the max.

Here is my R92 454 Casull Scout with the Weaver K4 Scout. It is a beast as well.
http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/02/13/emune5e8.jpg

[TXGunNut]

Nice piggy, Michael! Can't wait to load that boolit in my RBH, maybe in my 45 Colt Trapper as well.

[BruceB]

Topics like this bemuse me.

Based on PERSONAL EXPERIENCE( i.e: not 'war stories' or 'internet expertise')..... I don't see much need for the .454, .460, .480 etc for regular field service, meaning a belt gun that is NOT a main hunting firearm in place of a rifle.

A .44 is .432" (my bullets), and the .454 is ...guess what?...,454" diameter. When both cartridges are loaded with heavy cast bullets, they aren't much different.

Once upon a time, in my "salad days" as Colonel Askins used to call them, I was pretty impressed with the then-wildcat .454, and thought I might own one in the future.

A few incidents of hands-on field experience changed my mind.

Gents..... I have on a number occasions driven my own self-cast .44 SWC bullets COMPLETELY THROUGH (and out the far side of) adult bull moose and large Wood Bison. Some of these creatures weighed over a ton. This type of performance was routine, not the occasional exception. On seeing a few such results, my thinking changed to say, "The .44 is going right through and kicking up dirt....why do I need a .454? To kick up MORE dirt?"

Yes, the bullet hole is fractionally larger.... but .020" is not going to make that much difference. The penetration of the .44 is manifestly sufficient. If I was buying a new, heavy revolver today, it might well be a .454.....but I sure wouldn't buy it in the expectation of a huge performance increase over that of my .44s.

Choices are great, and I don't fault anyone who chooses a .454 or whatever. Just be aware that the .44 with heavy cast bullets is also one highly-effective killing instrument. Without any experience at all with jacketed revolver loads on animals, I must say that the heavy .45s may well do better than the .44 with XTPs or similar bullets...but that simply doesn't appear on my personal radar. I've been a cast-bullet shooter for decades, and that isn't going to change now.

I do hope I haven't unduly upset anyone!

[Southern Shooter]

I have no doubt that the .44 Magnum is capable of incredible power and great feats in the field. My children each carry one in the woods. However, this thread was based on a rifle as the platform. But, speaking of the .44 Magnum and .454 Casull issue....

I had a wonderful Ruger Super Blackhawk 3-screw 1972 production. It was my "up close and personal woods protection gun". It was fun to shoot light to medium loads from. But, for me personally, once I moved up to heavier, faster loads the fun seemed to vanish. The recoil was too snappy for me. My two sons have Ruger Blackhawk Flat-tops in .44 Magnum and my daughter shoots a S&W 629 in .44 Magnum. Again, lighter loads, fun...beyond that, I don't enjoy.

All I can tell you is that my Ruger Alaskan in .454 Casull, short and stubby as it may be, has provided me with much more pleasure in shooting. I don't come home with my hand still stinging or my wrist aching. And, the range of loads that I can create with this gun are near endless. From 11 grains Unique or 17.5 grains of Blue Dot behind a 264 grain cast bullet up to 24 grains of H110 behind a 362 cast bullet and all in between. All of these, TO ME, are more enjoyable to shoot than even generic .44 Magnum factory ammo.

It just feels like I can equal the performance of a .44 Magnum with my .454 Casull without as much abuse to myself.

I have no explanation...just my personal experience.

[357shooter]

That's a nice looking Rossi Ranch Dog. I just ordered a blue on just like that, chambered in 454. I think it'll compliment my SS 357 very nicely. Can't wait for it to arrive.

[Southern Shooter]

I just picked up this 2nd hand Puma M92 .454 Casull for $350.
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[badbob454]

never saw it personally buy heard of pigs shot repeatedly with a 44 mag before they dropped , i imagine , (note no experience ) a 454 casull would have dropped em dead right there , a .429-430 , 44 mag is much smaller than a 454 casull .452-454 a surface area of approx 8% more and can have a heavier boolit making a better penetrator of heavy , and did i mention dangerous game .. not to mention powder capacity,.. also the taylor knockout formula gives the 454 casull a 30.2 tko compared to a 19.9 tko for the 44 mag some 33% more killing power ... see this link for the results
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taylor_KO_Factor
thanks for listening to my ramble ...bob

[TXGunNut]

I just picked up this 2nd hand Puma M92 .454 Casull for $350.-Southern Shooter


Nicely done! The load you're contemplating is very close to my 45-70 hunting load so should be up to any N American hunting task I can imagine with proper boolits and boolit placement.
I like that rifle but can't help but wonder if it might be a bit uncomfortable to shoot. I think Ranch Dog was hinting about that. Looks like fun, tho.

[Southern Shooter]

TXGunNut, I just so happen to have walked in from the range. I did not have any of my 360 grain cast bullets loaded up, but, I did have some 335 grain Cast Performance bullets loaded up with 26 grains of H-110 and a heavy crimp. Well, the ported barrel must really help. Because, I found that load down right pleasant. I did not have any of the painful experience that I expected.

[357shooter]

What primers are you guys using with the 454 and H110? Looks like small rifle, is that right?

[Southern Shooter]

Small rifle primers.

[TXGunNut]

I had to stay inside and do taxes today. :( Could you give us a more detailed range report to ease my pain a bit, SS? Rather anxious to hear how the little lady shoots.

[41mag]

What little experience I have with shooting game with my Raging Bull in 454 has shown me that it has more than ample power from the 8 3/8" barrel to take care of anything I want to come up against. In the rifle the same loads should really be awesome.

I am shooting the Lee 300gr RF at a mild 1500'ish fps, and have run it up higher but it isn't fun as you mentioned. The grandson and I were killing time one weekend and decided to put up some 5gal buckets of water, then shoot and record the shot. I posted up the link to the vid here, and there is also a shot of the recovered bullet there as well,
Water Test (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?124036-Lee-C452-300-RF-Water-Test&)

On the photo site there is also a still shot of the bucket at moment of impact. This was from the Bull at the 1500'ish velocity and the bucket was at 50yds. I feel this is pretty darned impressive. I doubt you wil have any issues with what your using.

[Gunnut 45/454]

Ranch Dog
Good God man a 290 at over 2000 fps! Did that porker do back flips! That had to be a handfull cookin them off! My load for the 240gr XTPs definately let you feel it in my Puma 454 at 5 lbs better be hanging on tight!

[dbar]

Either way, I have both the 1895cb in 45-70 and the Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan in 454 casull with me I go out. Its nice to now I have more gun that I need.......:)

[dougader]

If by NW, you mean Washington and Oregon then your load is more than enough. Cougar aren't that hard to put down, and black bear is handled with 44 mag or - my favorite - handloaded 45 Colt in a large frame Ruger. My go-to load for the Ruger Bisley is a 335 grain WLNGC at 1200 fps. That load will blow right through elk like nothing and keep on going, and black bear will drop to it as well.

My bear load when fishing in Alaska is/has been the same 335 WLNGC over 28 grains WW296 for an average 6-shot string of 1430 fps in a 7.5" SRH. Not a max load per Hodgdon data, but plenty to do the job and much more controllable for me.

That Puma was nabbed at a great price. Way to go!

[Snyd]

If the bullet pictured below were at 362 grains, 18-21 bhn, and had a muzzle velocity of a little over 1,600 FPS from a 20" barrel rifle.....

Would it be an acceptable defensive round in northwest mountain areas where large, startled, peeved animals could possibly be encountered?


That will put a big long hole through anything you think you want to shoot, that's for sure. The biggest issue you will run in to is getting it to cylce reliably in the levergun. I have a Puma 92 454 that I've messed with quite a bit. I have a 355gr WFN LBT boolit with a big fat meplat. You will need to find the max OAL with that boolit profile. I had to trim brass and ended up half way between 45 Colt and 454. With the LBT boolit I have more case capacity than with the 360gr Cast Performance so by trimming the brass I end up with the same case capacity. I have worked up loads with H110 and Lil'Gun. I've settled on LilGun for my bear protection load since it's not sensitive to cold like H110.

Here's the boolit next to a Cast Performance 360gr. The CP will cycle with brass not trimmed much. I'd have to check my notes to see what it is.

http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w505/pbsnyd/boolits/45_bullets01.jpg


I could (and have) load it hotter but here is where I'll stay. Good load for both guns which is what I was after.

http://i1079.photobucket.com/albums/w505/pbsnyd/targets/454Snyd_03.jpg

[rbuck351]

What Snyd said. You will want to check for feeding with bullets much over 330 grs as you are going to use up valuable powder space if you have to seat them deep. I use the Lee 300gr that actually casts at 317gr with WWs and I load 31grs LilGun for 1950fps. I could probably stuff a couple more grs of powder in, but the recoil is already stiff in the light Rossi carbine. I haven't tried this on anything yet but I'm confident it will do the job.

[357shooter]

What Snyd said. You will want to check for feeding with bullets much over 330 grs as you are going to use up valuable powder space if you have to seat them deep. I use the Lee 300gr that actually casts at 317gr with WWs and I load 31grs LilGun for 1950fps. I could probably stuff a couple more grs of powder in, but the recoil is already stiff in the light Rossi carbine. I haven't tried this on anything yet but I'm confident it will do the job.
I'm liking that Lee 300 too, however the last time I crimped in the lower groove it woudn't cycle. I'll have to try it again, however the top groove works fine. I believe yours cycles crimped with the longer OAL (lower crimp groove). Did it just cycle or did you have to work on the gun?

[Ed K]

I don't doubt for a minute that this would make a great hunting round in your rifle for the animals you describe. However...




Would it be an acceptable defensive round in northwest mountain areas where large, startled, peeved animals could possibly be encountered?



If you "startled" a large animal and it was "peeved", you would likely be very close. As to the outcome, the number of variables is huge. I don't think I or anyone else could give you that answer - probabilities at best. If you are standing underneath an angry elephant and your handgun renders it DRT were you successful? Not intended as sarcasm but rather hyperbole.