Inaccuracy in reloads for Marlin 336

[lovedogs]

I'm stumped. I've reloaded since 1968 and thought I could make loads that'd shoot well in anything. But I've got a new Marlin 336/.30-30 that's got me stumped. It seems to be a real nice rifle with a beautiful barrel that slugs .3085, nice and tight. It is smooth and cleans easily, also. When new I tried four different factory jacketed ammos in it. They all shot well, about 1 1/2 in. @ 100. After a good break-in I started working up cast loads using a Lee 150 bullet. I found one good plinking load using Trail Boss. Then I wanted to try j-bullets. I tried Hornady 170's and Sierra 150's. I tried H4895 and H335. I partial-sized cases to fit using a .020 in. gauge on the shell holder. Cases fit well, not loose or tight. Sometimes the rifle shot fairly well, others it shot terrible...3 to 5 in. groups @ 100. It's weird, inconsistent. I even changed scopes, thinking my scope was shot. Same thing with new scope. Factory ammo shoots well but my carefully crafted loads are terrible. I don't get it. I use the same dies and everything for a Contender and it shoots 3/4 in. 100 yd. groups. If anyone has any ideas please let me know. I'm ready to trade this Marlin if I can't figure it out. I'm sure it has to have a remedy but I'm getting tired of trying to figure it out.

[rintinglen]

If the factory ammo shoots well, we've established that the gun works fine. Therefore, it must be the ammunition. When I have a problem, I go back to basics. Am I using the correct primers? Is my technique correct? Am I treating each case the same? Are they the same length? Am I loading a correct, consistent charge of powder? Am I crimping each case the same?
I emphasize the latter, because the one difference between loading for a tubular magazine versus a box magazine or single shot, is the necessity of crimping rounds that will be fed through the magazine. Even if single loaded, the magazine spring pushing on the Bullet (or boolit) can shorten the OAL of the Cartridge. That can result in verticle stringing, should the angle of entry to the throat change. Even if it does not change the angle of entry, increasing the freebore is usually detrimental to accuracy. I find that for best accuracy, I either use a Lee Factory Crimp Die, or trim my brass every time.

[Nobade]

The Lee 150 has a bore riding nose doesn't it? If that nose will slip into the muzzle without engraving, you have found your source of trouble. Microgroove barrels normally want a .303" or so nose and .310" or so driving bands to work best.

Check the article I posted recently about making microgroove barrels to see the specs Marlin was trying to hold.

[lovedogs]

rintinglen...thanks for your comments. I've gone back to basics time after time. My reloading procedures have checks all through the procedure and I've never had a problem like this. I agree it must be the loads but can't figure out why. I'm not a fan of crimping except on revolvers and anything that is a repeating type gun that recoils enough to need a crimp. In my experience (in my guns) I don't crimp my single-shot .45-70's or any of my .30-30's. I've tried crimping with RCBS dies and Lee Factory Crimp dies on my single-shot .45-70's and have found they shoot more accurately without the crimp. With .30-30's I've noted the same thing, less accuracy. With the tubular magazine .30-30 I've cycled an uncrimped round through the tube for ten firings and it never moved. So if it is less accurate and not necessary to prevent movement I just don't crimp. I always trim to exact case length on crimped ammo. Something I have thought about and haven't researched yet is the way I'm sizing these .30-30 cases. I've read all the advice on full-length sizing in lever guns but have discovered if you partial-size so rounds chamber easily but aren't sized down too much it extends case life. But I wonder if this rifle has a chamber where the neck and body portions aren't aligned correctly. A factory round could be loose enough in the body dimension that the neck aligns things sufficiently enough for good accuracy. But if partial-sized and the neck of the fired round isn't aligned with the body after that first firing it would result in different alignment from one case to another. Does this make sense? Next time I go to the range to shoot this rifle I plan on full-length sizing and see if that makes any difference. That's all I can figure to do. All of my other reloading procedure is very precise as demonstrated with many years of fine shooting guns. I'm open to any other suggestions if anyone wants to chime in.

[popper]

Marlin or Remlin? My 336 likes the RD 311 165 design, didn't like the Lee design. What alloy? You didn't indicate what fps, light or heavy load. I didn't get good accuracy using H335 even for jacketed.

[webfoot10]

Find a Boolet that fit's the throat, Size to .311 or .312 GC and
load over 27 grs 3031. Should solve your problem. Micro groove
barrels need oversized boolet's.

[brstevns]

If you fired J-words in it, did you get all the copper fouling out? This can make a big difference. I also found a .310 bullet water drop work for me.

[Green Lizzard]

nobade has it nailed i shoot a lot of lee boolits the best they do in my marlins is 2 to 2.5 in at 100. in mod 788 and pump savage t/c carbine 1 to 1.5 in happen sometimes

[lovedogs]

Now everything may be changing. I relieved the pressure on the barrel where the rear band (on front of forearm) was putting a lot of pressure on the barrel. It had a lot of pressure. Now I can run a piece of dental floss between the top of the band and the barrel. I had some Speer Nitrex 150 gr. ammo that I shot as a preliminary test. It grouped well and shot a full 8 inches higher than it had before relieving the pressure on the barrel. Obviously, this is going to change things. I haven't had good enough weather to test reloads yet. I don't know why that pressure would affect handloads and still be able to shoot factory ammo well. I guess I'll know more when I can get out to test some of the same handloads I'd used before and see if it's different now. If reloads still shoot lousy I'll try full-length sizing. If I keep trying things and eliminating things one at a time I should eventually figure it out. Thanks for all the input. Some of you need to read the original post. I did find a decent plinking load using cast Lee 150's. It's j-bullets I'm having trouble with. I probably won't need a full strength hunting load with cast but if I can get the jacketed loads figured out I may at a later time research that.

[Dave Bulla]

The bullet I've had fantastic luck with in my son's 30-30 is the Hornady 150gr rn. I believe it is #3015. I put that over 29 grains of IMR 3031 and a Winchester standard LR primer. This is a moderate load but as always, check your loading manuals and work up if needed.

On the barrel bands, you could very well be onto something. I'm kinda into the Marlin rifles and have found that the guns that have just a tiny bit of wiggle room in the fore end shoot far better than those that are dead tight. The difference really starts to show up after about the 4th or 5th shot in a string. There is a book out there I've heard of that I believe is called "accurizing the lever rifle (or maybe it's "gun"). From second hand info about it, I guess the gist of things is to relieve pressure at both barrel bands, don't overtighten the screw in the side of the band and float the fore end. The magazine tube to barrel gap needs to be even all the way out. Often it has a larger gap just forward of the fore end but then is pinched down to almost touching at the muzzle. Get all that leveled out and it should help.

You can also remove the barrel bands and fore end completely and shoot it again to see if you have a heat/expansion issue. If so, it makes a big difference to get that stuff out of the way. Then you'll know if you need to address those parts for binding.

Lastly, when shooting Marlins from the bench, try to rest the receiver on your sandbags, not the fore end. It often makes a BIG difference.

Hope this helps.

[Shuz]

Find a Boolet that fit's the throat, Size to .311 or .312 GC and
load over 27 grs 3031. Should solve your problem. Micro groove
barrels need oversized boolet's.

Amen on oversized boolits in at least one of my Marlin 336's in .30-30. Yesterday .311 diam. heat treated 311466 gave me 1.5" 5 shot groups at 50 meters whereas .310 diam. heat treated 311466's shot over 4" at the same distance. Load was 17g of WC 820 and a CCI 200. Too much snow to operate the chrono.

[lovedogs]

Thanks for all the feedback, ya'all. I'm still wondering about the big difference between factory ammo and the reloads. But I have made some discoveries. Some things I've read on the internet helped guide me in the right direction. Info from the internet and what Dave Bulla said was right. As I mentioned on my last note here, I reamed the top half of the rear band. That's all I did. I know there are other things one can do to accurize the 336 but I wanted to go one step at a time and monitor results. The weatherman predicted the wind wasn't gonna be too strong today so I got to the range. He lied...as usual...but I was there so decided to pop off a few to see if the band relief did anything. Even with 10 to 15 m.p.h. full value 9 o'clock winds I managed a few good three-shot groups. Hornady 170 gr. w/ H4895 shot a couple 2 in. 100 yd. groups and Sierra 150 gr./H335 shot one 1 1/4 X 1 3/4 in. and one 2 in. group. This isn't great but is much better and consistent than previous groups and not bad for the wind I was shooting in. So I'm encouraged. I'm going to leave things "as is" and shoot again on a calmer day. If things work out as expected I will then work on a cast bullet hunting load. I've already found a mild plinking load using Trail Boss, as mentioned previously. I have the Lee 150 gr. mould and a Lyman #311291 170 gr. mould.

[UBER7MM]

I overheard an old timer talking about attempting to get a micro-groove Marlin to group with cast boolits. It wouldn't group. He tried everything that he could think of without luck. Finally, he tried a softer lead alloy. Apparently, the softer lead likes to grip the micro-groove better, or so he said. It might be worth a try.

I hope this helps,

[lovedogs]

Uber...softer lead works to a point. When you get enough velocity/pressure the soft lead won't stand the pressures and will "strip" past riflings and lead pretty badly. At some lower revolver speeds I've had good results by going to softer alloy. A gas check can help prevent leading, seal better, and grip riflings, also. But with softer alloy you can only go so fast. Sizing and lube make a difference, too. It all works together...or not. Get it right and it's wonderful. Get it wrong and it's a mess. One personal experience I've had that goes against all conventional thinking is one of my .45-70 loads. My Buffalo Classic is one of the best .45-70's I've ever seen. It shoots 500 grainers in less than MOA out to past a half-mile. Once I was looking for a light bullet hunting load. A gunsmith friend had an RCBS mould he'd opened up. It's now a 300 gr. SWC with a wide meplat that drops 'em out at .459 w/ 20:1 alloy. It's a gas checked style. According to Hoyle that should lead and not shoot so well if pushed fast. Using a hefty (yet safe) load of Varget it shoots 1/2 in. 100 yd. 5-shot groups at 1860 FPS. It leaves no lead in the barrel whatsoever. You can run an oily patch through it and it's clean. It shouldn't be that way according to conventional thinking...but it works. That bullet will de-stabilize at about 200 yds. but out to that distance it's awesome. I've yet to shoot a deer with it but it really ruins a coyotes day. If you hit bone it removes the off-side of the coyote. But, boy, does it shoot!

[Bullshop]

"""" My Buffalo Classic is one of the best .45-70's I've ever seen. It shoots 500 grainers in less than MOA out to past a half-mile.
"""""
I will probably regret it but I call BS on that statement. 1 mile is 1760 yards so 1/2 mile is 880 yards I think that is right. So if the H&R is shooting less than MOA at that distance it is grouping into less than 8.8" at over half a mile.
I dont think so. Possible yes but I doubt that is whats happening. Not trying to call you a lier but saying you may be using terms loosly. If I am wrong and you are right about the numbers its easy to proove me wrong.
Also not saying it does not happen on a reguler basis with some folks but for those that can do it they had dedicated a large amount of time into perfecting the launch system as well as their own ability and I assure they are not shooting H&Rs.
Sorry but this is one of those fingernails across the blackboard for me so I have to respond with my thoughts on it.

[lovedogs]

Bullshop...I understand you questioning my statement about the accuracy of the Buffalo Classic. I probably would, too. You'll notice I didn't say I could do that every day. I'll relate the story to you how it happened and you may understand better. My wife and I used to attend shoots in Ekalaka, Mt. where we shot metallic silhouettes out to 876 yds. That's pretty close to a half-mile. Our buffalo target is about 4 X 8 feet large. I had installed a Lee Shaver Soule sight on my BC and worked up a real accurate load with a 500 gr. 1881 pattern bullet. Shot to shot extreme velocity spreads were running 7 FPS, which is an important factor when shooting that far. Basically, each FPS is an inch drop at those distances. If you are running, say, 20 FPS vel. spreads you can only hope to shoot within 20 inches of your point of aim, shot to shot. One cool, windless morning I was out practicing at the buffalo, 876 yds. away. I got my sights figured out and was hitting it pretty much center. I applied a fresh coat of spray paint and returned to the shooting line. I set up my sticks and shot five shots. What I saw in the spotting scope was unbelievable so I walked up to the buffalo. There were all five shots in a nice 5 1/2 inch group. Lucky? You bet! So I went back and shot five more. That group was about 7 inches. Still fantastic. Can I do this all the time? Of course not. But I do believe the rifle is a less-than-MOA rifle as it has shot many one-hole groups at 100 yds. Lots of 2 to 2 1/2 in. at 200, and a few right at 3 inches at 300 yds. Past that I think it's capable of MOA but it's limited by my ability. On the day I shot those great groups I was very lucky and it all worked out better than usual. It really makes some shooters mad when my wife and I shoot so well with "cheap" BC's. We have had men shooting expensive Sharps, Rollers, and Brownings pretty upset that their expensive and, sometimes, custom-built rifles outshot by our BC's. The BC's have really good Green Mountain barrels. Add a super good cast load, quality sights and a bushel of luck and good things can happen. I understand you doubting my statement. And you're correct, most who are shooting this style of shooting aren't shooting H&R's. They usually shoot Sharps. And I'm no competition for those pros. But, as the saying goes, "even a blind hog finds a chestnut once in a while". I admit to a lot of luck. But I also know for a fact that you don't have to be wealthy or have a Sharps to shoot well.

[Bullshop]

I said it would be easy to prouve me wrong and you did. Good shootin! Now I would like to see your match schedule so I can avoid having to shoot against you and your Missus.

[MtGun44]

Larger diameter is usually needed for microgroove barrels.

Bill

[lovedogs]

Bullshop... Ha, ha! You wouldn't have to worry about me and the Mrs. As I stated, I can't do that feat on a regular basis. I do have a good day once in a while. Now, the Mrs. is a different story. On one particularly windy day we were all having trouble with the bear silhouette at 550 yds. The wind was gusting from 7 to 13 m.p.h. from 3 o'clock, giving us all fits. The wife found the right sight adjustment and pulled the trigger right 6 out of 8 shots. The spotter said, "You need to see this." We took turns looking through the spotting scope. She had put all six shots dead-center in the bear's groin. You know, right "you know where". The spotter said,"You better be careful with that woman". Another shooter said, "That woman is dangerous. You may run but you can't hide. She'll get you." But you don't need to worry, Bull. We live 120 miles from that range and no longer attend that shoot. In fact, we are "retired". There is another woman from N.D. though who attends and she has been known to hit that 876 yd. buffalo 10 for 10. No one outshoots her...not even her husband.

[Bullshop]

Might the gal from SD be Linda Clendenin? I have been humbled by her a few times past.

[lovedogs]

Yeah, I think that's the one. Where were you humbled by her?

[Dan Cash]

GadZOOKS!!!!!!!! Linda is an honest to goodness NoDak from Amidon. She is at least 40 miles north of South Dakota.

[Dan Cash]

Yeah, I think that's the one. Where were you humbled by her?

Where ever he shot with her. My life goal is to out shoot the woman but I am likely going to have to out live her to get it done.

[pls1911]

There's lots of good message in the above texts, so I'll just not give any advice, just provide my own experience.
I have a few (60+) Marlins some early models 1893 though 1947, some early 336 premicro groove and few micro groove items as well.
Use gas check bullets bullets cast HARD or Cast soft and Heat treat HARD (My preference)
Size to .311 or .312 ( I prefer .312, though the NOE/ranch dogs only seat and crimp the check.)
Use a good stick lube, lla, white label or LLA/JPW/MS 45-45-10.
Saeco#315, Ranch Dog 165/170, Lyman 31141, or RCBS 180 FN are preferred bullets; All should work well if properly made.
25-26 grains of Reloader 7 works for me, I'm sure others have their preferences as well.

[DLCTEX]

I know the OP was having trouble with jacketed rounds, but my Marlin lever likes the Lee 311-170, which is no longer made. The nose engraves and takes a bit of pressure to close the bolt, but with R-7 it does all I can expect from a lever rifle. I have the Lee 308-150 and it does well, but not as well.