223 Cast Bullet Loads

[malonjw]

I have a friend who has loaded several 223 rounds using an RCBS mold. He used Linotype metal and the casting weight is 55 gr. He has used 23 grains of H322 powder. It appears that load will fire at about 3000 fps. A gas check was not used due to lack of availability of correct gas checks. What danger is there that the barrel of the .223 AR-15 will be damaged using the linotype cast bullet? Can he get by just cleaning the barrel after shooting a few hundred rounds at the range? This is not a weapon that will be fired thousands and thousands of rounds.

[Love Life]

No barrel damage. The lino is softer than the barrel.

[jabilli]

Something you might find useful http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/ByCaliber/default.html Click "Cast in the .223" ....It's 7 links down from the top. :-)

I hate to poop in the punchbowl with negativity, but your friend will very likely find that with a load appropriate for about 3k fps with a 55 grain linotype will vaporize the bullet/cause self destruction. This fact alone has caused me a fairly good deal of frustration.

I've been looking into ways around this for some time...It really seems to me that the best way around it is to not use lead boolits (if trying to shoot above 2k fps)... The best method of getting 3k+ fps out of your AR homeloads? buying commercially available stuff.

Another option that people have safely and reliably been making ammo for .223 that shoots in the ballpark of 3k fps are the folks who are into swaging. Our forums have a section specifically for this topic, and they've come up with some very impressive stuff...Mind you the cost of gear to get into the hobby of swaging can be on the end of pricey.

Good luck!

[nighthunter]

Jabilli ...... Vaporizing bullets ..... What have you been smokeing? malonjw .... Shooting cast at 3000 fps or close to it can be done. I would first suggest that your friend acquire the proper gas checks. At these velocities they will deffinately help. Second ..... bullet fit in the barell and a GOOD bullet lubricant will help you achieve the goal. I'd also suggest that you back off on the target velocity and work your way up to it a little at a time. With 22 caliber bullets small changes can have great effects. Don't give up but rather learn as you go.

Nighthunter

[badgeredd]

nighthunter put it well. You will need GC for velocities much above 1500 FPS or face the task of de-leading the barrel in all likelihood. I'd suggest you make your initial velocies a lot closer to 2500 fps and work up. FIT will be critical for accurate loads too. I have found 22s are a bit easier to get higher velocities out of but you are also straining the alloy strength when you're loading to the high velocities.

Edd

[1Shirt]

Just my opinion and experiance, but I want GC's on all my cast 22's over about 1200 fps regardless of hardness.
1Shirt!

[runfiverun]

i increased the accuracy of my 223 boolit by cutting linotype in half with pure lead and upping the tin content.
i think i can increase it further by cutting that mix in half,i just gotta figure out how to do that and keep my critical diameters.

when he goes to shoot them i'd like to see some 100 yd targets...

[fcvan]

R5R, I think running a GC boolit a 3000fps without a GC will result in pristine targets at 100 yards. They likely won't hit paper, let alone group. Ah who knows, the Galena Goddess might smile down on the guy (I doubt it). I tried to run a Lyman 225-415 without a GC after copper electroplating. No worky. The electroplated boolits shot great with a GC. I would like to see some targets as well.

[runfiverun]

i know they won't hit paper...
i tried near 3-k kindaonaccident in the 0-6, i did hit paper at 100 though.
the 4x4 backer was covered in it and i kept all three shots on it.
not really what i had in mind at the time.

[myg30]

What is the BNH of the boolit your shooting ? Do you get much build up of lead in the gas block ?

Mike

[jabilli]

Jabilli ...... Vaporizing bullets ..... What have you been smokeing? malonjw .... Shooting cast at 3000 fps or close to it can be done. I would first suggest that your friend acquire the proper gas checks. At these velocities they will deffinately help. Second ..... bullet fit in the barell and a GOOD bullet lubricant will help you achieve the goal. I'd also suggest that you back off on the target velocity and work your way up to it a little at a time. With 22 caliber bullets small changes can have great effects. Don't give up but rather learn as you go.

Nighthunter

No need to be nasty- really, not necessary. The fact you disagree with my statement is just fine. That's all ya had to say. In any case, the only things I've been smoking were two or three small batches of .223 at more extreme speeds. Does the bullet vaporize completely? Maybe not. Probably more of a mix of having it smear in the bore, spread everywhere once the lead vapor exits the bore, and destruct from centrifugal force on the way to target. In any case, one could forget the literal sense of "vaporizing" and just see it for face value- a way to express the concept of the bullet destructing.

Don't believe me put together a nice hot batch like as if you were shooting jacketed ammo. If it's anything like my first CB .223 load, you wont even see the bullet impacting against anything most of the time- The pop can I was aiming at had burned fragment-type holes in it. (A2 Style AR15...20" with 1/12" twist rate shooting 57 grain CB with IIRC about 21.5g of Varget.) Among the first of many lessons learned- I'm happy most are through reading other peoples experiences here in the forums :-)

[nighthunter]

jbilli .... I wasn't attempting to be nasty. I've been shooting cast bullets for 45 years and have never seen one vaporize AND I do shoot cast bullets at jacketed bullet velocities in many of my firearms. Sometimes on this board it can be quite easy to get bad information. The bad information usually comes from someone that doesn't have sufficient knowledge to be answering a particular question. As dedicated bullet casters on this forum most of us try to make the learning for others easier to achieve through us explaining our experiences. Sometimes we have to say that some posts need to be taken with a grain of salt. No Hard feelings here.

Nighthunter

[runfiverun]

you can push the boundary's with cast.
it's just not a matter of making them and sticking them in a case.
you seriously HAVE to make everything fit and work properly.
i can get to over 2700 in my 9 twist ar's and maintain accuracy in the 1-1/2 to
1-3/4 range.
not earth shattering accuracy you say.
thats as good as/better than/ it does with many jaxketed bullets.....
it takes longer than a year to figure some of this stuff out.

[pdawg_shooter]

I would not try it with 22cal bullets but if you are after velocity with accuracy try paper patching. The paper protects the bullet from heat and bore friction and supports the bullet against deformation from acceleration. I have done so in a 300RUM @3000fps and got MOA accuracy. My 06 load uses a 311414 at 2800fps with 1.5 MOA.

[runfiverun]

man i can barely get a gas check on a 22.
i can't even imagine trying to wrap cotton bond,or print paper on a 22 boolit.
i'd have to use tweezers to twist the tails.

[Nrut]

man i can barely get a gas check on a 22.
i can't even imagine trying to wrap cotton bond,or print paper on a 22 boolit.
i'd have to use tweezers to twist the tails.
Use rice paper..
If ya get my drift..[smilie=1:

[pdawg_shooter]

man i can barely get a gas check on a 22.
i can't even imagine trying to wrap cotton bond,or print paper on a 22 boolit.
i'd have to use tweezers to twist the tails.

Same here, I used to patch for my 25-06 for dog shooting, but had to give it up because of old hand didnt work so well anymore. Now, 30cal and larger is all I patch.

[garandsrus]

I shot some cast in a 22-250 that shot pretty good with gas checks. The same load without the check would result in a puff of grey smoke about 10 yds from the muzzle. I didnt chrono the load. The alloy was linotype.

[Larry Gibson]

I have a friend who has loaded several 223 rounds using an RCBS mold. He used Linotype metal and the casting weight is 55 gr. He has used 23 grains of H322 powder. It appears that load will fire at about 3000 fps. A gas check was not used due to lack of availability of correct gas checks. What danger is there that the barrel of the .223 AR-15 will be damaged using the linotype cast bullet? Can he get by just cleaning the barrel after shooting a few hundred rounds at the range? This is not a weapon that will be fired thousands and thousands of rounds.

Other than probable severe leading of the barrel the AR will not be damaged. Might be damaged trying to get the lead out though.........

As you can tell from many of the replies shooting an un GC'd bullet at that velocity is not recommended. While cast bullets,GC'd and PP'd ones can be shot that fast your freind will find accuracy, especially with the RCBS cast bullet (even if GC'd), very disappointing. Your freind probably also has a 7 or 9" twist in the AR barrel which will further exasperate the problem. If he wants to shoot his RCBS cast bullets in his AR cast of linotype (like runfiverun I like to cut linotype with lead and usually ad some tin to it also) he will GC those bullets, use a good lube and reduce the load of H322 down to 15 gr and then work up in 1/2 gr increments until he gets functional reliability with the AR. His best accuracy with functional reliability will be at that point. Won't be fast but it will work. Many of us use similar loads for lots of practical practice with our own ARs.

Then when he has some cast bullet loading experience he can, if he wants to, delve into the tedious process of buying special moulds and perfecting his loading technique to get higher velocity with useable accuracy.

Larry Gibson

[josh82]

you can push the boundary's with cast.
it's just not a matter of making them and sticking them in a case.
you seriously HAVE to make everything fit and work properly.
i can get to over 2700 in my 9 twist ar's and maintain accuracy in the 1-1/2 to
1-3/4 range.
not earth shattering accuracy you say.
thats as good as/better than/ it does with many jaxketed bullets.....
it takes longer than a year to figure some of this stuff out.

how do you achieve that accuracy? What BHN did your bullets have? and which kind of alloy you are using?
I did some testing in my SBR AR with a 12inch barrel, and I've used the Lee 22 Bator mold and accuracy was horrible, at 100 yards I was not able to hit paper. I've used purel lead with 3% antimony and 1% tin water quenched bullets. In reduced loads accuracy is ok, within 50 yards its 1 inch, at arround 12-1300 fps. but beyond that accuracy goes to pot. I would highly appreciate if somebody could teach me some tricks.

[Taylor]

131857 100 yards 70 gr noe with lyman #2,17.5 varget and 1-9 twist.any faster and they scatter.

[NC_JEFF]

Nice target Taylor, how fast is your boolits with 17.5 gr varget? What barrel length are you using?

JD

[kbstenberg]

Josh82 If you go to the post with the link in it. you will find lots of inf. on alloys and bullet design.

[Taylor]

Nice target Taylor, how fast is your boolits with 17.5 gr varget? What barrel length are you using?

JD

I have never chrono'd them and the barrel is 24".H&R with bull barrel. Weaver T-36 for sights.

[runfiverun]

Welcome to the forum Josh.
I'd tell you the secret but then I'd err,,, wrong forum. :lol:

Alloy is not the answer, it is part of the equation, you have to put together an entire system that works together.
The alloy, boolit shape, pressure rise of the powder, and boolit alignment in the throat all have to work together.
If I were going to work with an off the shelf mold I would look at the rcbs 22-055s or the Sacco 60gr rn.
my alloy ended up being 4%tin and 6%antimony I also lapped my mold on the nose right in front of the drive bands to achieve .219 diameter right there.
it's also the diameter I specified when I drew up the HM-2 5.56 mold.
The trick was finding the powder that would push the boolit forward gently enough to let that boolit align by using the nose as a guide while it was moving forward then get the body in the barrel before accelerating it.
I also had to weight sort my boolits and ruthlessly cull visual defects.

It's a lot of work.

[Kos1966]

Does powder coating help?

[runfiverun]

I guess it could if you can get it on evenly.

[RogerDat]

I have a fast twist mini-14 in 223 with a 1:7 twist. I have found Lyman #2 with gas check and powder coat over a 70 grain bullet is accurate pushed by 24.5 grains of Varget. Have no idea of velocity but getting pretty close to a compressed load of powder. Doesn't lead, doesn't clog gas port. My reading toward developing that round I found that twist rate and bullet weight being a good match was an important factor to getting accuracy. My fast twist is marginal with 55 grain bullet that slower twist barrels really like. Weight, profile, spin, velocity all appear to impact what alloy will support what velocity.

Also everything I have seen on gas check design without gas check say performance is poor to epic fail. Certainly generally in the why bother spectrum of endeavors.

[Kos1966]

What mold for the 70 gr? The only one I have seen is Noe

[RogerDat]

What mold for the 70 gr? The only one I have seen is Noe

Yes I use the NOE 70 grain, 4 cavity. Lee handles for a 6 cavity fit it. Like the mold makes nice bullets. I powder coat with shake and bake method. gas check and size with Lee push through before PC.
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?products_id=87

Huge improvement over 55 grain surplus or standard ammo. Standing at 50 and 75 meters went from putting a 20 round magazine someplace on a 12 inch target to 18 of the 20 I could cover with my hand, so call it a 6 inch circle. I do have the older model with a 1:7 twist, as I understand it there was also a 1:9 twist made in some years/serial numbers. 70 grain should still be good in that but it might also like molds in the 60's. There is one of those a 65 grain Mihek in S&S forum right now.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?321272-Found-2-more-molds-I-ve-never-used-Mihec-22-Nato-65-and-75-grain-versions

[MaryB]

I gave up on cast in my AR, to finicky to get it to cycle right. I do use the Bator in my Savage Axis loaded down to 1200fps for small game. Lot more accurate than my 10/22 at 100 yards!

[Bzcraig]

I'm shooting the NOE 225-55 PC & GC using 11.5gr of RL7 with good results so far. Finally got a chrono but haven't checked this load yet.

[longbow]

Not an AR or .223 but high velocity with .222:

http://archive.is/EqRY0

Hopefully that link works. The article is now in an archive. If it doesn't he is claiming 58 grain cast bullet launched at 2690 ft./sec from a charge of 23 grains of BLC-2 powder in a bolt action Remington 700 in .222.

I have not done this myself so leave it to you guys. Just ran across the article and often see people trying for high velocity in bottleneck .22's.

Also related is this:

https://www.standeyo.com/News_Files/Firearms/casting.bullets.html

and the formula shows up often if you haven't seen it before. I will argue though that the calculated number is not the yield strength of the lead alloy as no lead alloy has a yield strength beyond about 12,500 PSI. It is the maximum chamber pressure that can be used with the alloy.

Anyway, maybe useful, maybe not.

Longbow

[Nrut]

I gave up on cast in my AR, to finicky to get it to cycle right. I do use the Bator in my Savage Axis loaded down to 1200fps for small game. Lot more accurate than my 10/22 at 100 yards!
Hi Mary,
What powder are you using for your 1200fps Axis load?
How does the noise level compared to .22 std vel.?
Thanks

[MaryB]

Just a lighter load of CFE223... forget which manual covers it

[Kos1966]

Thanks all I'm testing my loads Friday

[trixter]

I have been shooting and liking Lee C225-55 RF, with Unique. I have not settled the powder grains so I won't post it yet. I have the Lee 2 cavity mold and find casting this boolit is quick and easy. I use the Lyman Mag 25 and have it set at 755°, I heat the mold up on a hot plate and within 3 casts, I get perfect boolits. I water drop them. I usually age them for at least 2 weeks or longer. I install gas checks and run them through my Star Lube sizer a they are ready to go. I know, this sounds like a lot of work, but I am a 71 year old widower, who hates TV and don't like bars, so this keeps me occupied, when I am not watching my grandson play baseball.
So when I get the powder thing figired out, then I will go into full production.

[MaryB]

Yeah I haven't hit the magic powder load yet either... been getting some borderline over pressure signs with reduced load CFE223... nothing that would stop me but it is my life I am not going to hurt someone else!

[LeadPoisonTX]

Bzcraig
I'm shooting the NOE 225-55 PC & GC using 11.5gr of RL7 with good results so far. Finally got a chrono but haven't checked this load yet.




Do you have targets you could share with us? Which PC did you use?
I found good results with PC/no GC, with 311041 in 30-30 & 5.1 grains Red Dot (reduced at 1018 fps); and with PC/no GC with Cramer #56 90 grains boolit in 25-06 & 7.3 grains Unique (reduced load at 1370 fps). Hi Tek and shake & bake powders worked equally well. I know these are not "fast velocities" but they are accurate plinking loads - High Velocity with accuracy will be my next search.

[FordNLNR]

I've done a lot of testing with the MP 65gr NATO boolit, GC'd, PC'd, sized to .225" in my old 1:7 twist Mini14. I've tried a broad range of powders, but am finding best accuracy with the very fast end of the powder range: IMR4198, IMR4227, AA5744, even SR4759

[robg]

Use the Lee mold to ,casts well still trying to get results with true blue but I may give up on it and just use 2400 ,want to get a load to approximate 22mag with better accuracy than my 1022 over 50-100 yards for rabbits.

[Railbuggy]

I just saw a 16" 5.56 barrel offered for $54.99 shipped at (Gun.deals)

[old-ager]

Hi all - picking up an old thread - hope that's ok. Is there any way around the fact of inefficient burn on reduced charges?
I have some cast loads that are working pretty well for me, but the unburned powder (A2230) is unpleasant.
I've tried A1680 (there exists old load data for it for 55gr 223) but even the minimum charge (17.5gr) is too much for the boolits, doesn't cycle well, and probably is running at fairly high pressures.

Is it possible to get a light charge to burn more completely?

[Smk SHoe]

I've got the same problem with AA2230. Using 21ish grains behind a 62 Grain slick side bullet ( Elvis) from Arsenal and looks like I'm shooting black powder. Problem I have is it cycles just fine and accurate for plinking ammo. So no reason to mess with it.

[old-ager]

Glad the Elvis / Arsenal mold is working well for you. It sounds like it's able to handle about one more grain of 2230 than the Lee mold. 21 grain 2230 loads cycle well for me too, but precision is lacking with the Lee grooved mold.

Still wondering if there's any general technique to make light loads burn more fully. I am not greatly experienced in this yet, but where my mind is going is finding a fast and safe way to get the case fill to a higher level. Is there a safe filler that will cause more complete burn or am I wasting my time?