.38 Special Powder Charges...Confused???

[Southern Shooter]

Please see the below image. I am confused by the powder charges used with the bevel-base wadcutters and those used with the semi-wad cutters. I assumed that the semi-wad cutter, because it is not seated as deeply as the wad cutter, would have a larger charge of powder in it.

Thoughts? Educate me.

Thanks
60445

[Mlcompound]

148g vs 158g perhaps

[BK7saum]

I didn't compare all of the powders, but the velcolities on the SWCs are lower than the velocities of the BBWCs.

[HATCH]

the cases are different.
There is two types of 38sp cases.
One is standard and the other is wadcutter.
Look at this picture
60446
see the RP brass in the middle has 2 crimp lines.
One is in the middle of the brass.
Those are for WC's.
the internal dimensions are different.
If you use standard brass for WCs then you will notice a slight bulge in the case towards the bottom of the seated bullet.

that is the only thing I can think of.
I am not a expert but I do know that the cases are different.

[texassako]

148g vs 158g perhaps

+1, heavier bullet uses a lighter charge and has a slower speed.

[woody1]

I'm assuming the loads you show are from Speer #10 or similar, which I have. Frankly they've always made me nervous. IMO, go elsewhere for loads and use those that show at a minimum the OAL of the loaded cartridge. These loads do not and with wadcutters, seating depth is critical to pressure. That said, to me loading 5.1 grains of Unique under a bbwc and seating it deep to the crimp groove is a scary thought. I do use 5 grains of Unique under a 158 SWC, however. I recommend this load to nobody. Just what I use. Regards, Woody

[Southern Shooter]

Yes...I was a bit concerned with the recipe. I had intended to load 3.0 grains of Bullseye behind some bevel-based wad cutters and accidentially loaded 3.9 grains. To me, they felt more on the low end of .357 Magnums rather than .38 Special. I decided to not shoot all of them.

So, when I saw this information I was just wondering if others were comfortable shooting that load of Bullseye and wad cutters.

[woody1]

Are you going to load them out or flush with the case mouth? Makes a difference. Lyman lists up to 3.8 grains of B'eye behind a 148 grain wadcutter seated flush. It's at max pressure for 38 special. I'd be comfortable shooting your 3.9 load if the boolit was seated out say half the boolit length. Lyman lists up to 4.4 B'eye with their #35891 seated to an OAL of 1.317". Myself I prefer Unique or similar for trying to max out a 38 spec. but that's just my $0.02. Regards, Woody

by-the-way, what are you shooting them in?

[John in WI]

I've seen that load listed too--5.1gr Unique under a full wadcutter (148grain). I took some careful measurments of how much volume that much Unique occupies in a .38 case, and how deep a 148gr WC seats in the case, and there is just a hair of additional space left over. For what it's worth, I learned it's not a "compressed load". But not far from it either!

I was hoping to make a copy of the Buffalo Bore WC load using Unique powder. If I go ahead with a hot loading of a WC, I might just seat it only to the first lube groove to leave an extra milimeter or two in the case.

[wv109323]

Yes it is true that the SWC bullets would leave more case capacity. That alone does not determine the powder charge. With both bullets operating at the maximum safe pressure for the .38 Special the 148 gn. will travel faster than the 158 gn. The largest charge amounts are usually configured at or near maximum safe pressure.
The amount of powder is determined by the pressure and the pressure is affected by bullet weight.

[captaint]

I use an old Speer loading manual #9. After that, I often go to Ken Waters' Pet Loads, the complete edition. The "standard" wadcutter load for 38 special is more like 3.2 grs of Bullseye. I see no reason
to go beyond that, due to the usual accuracy in most guns. With wadcutters, I'm only looking for
accuracy, not velocity. If I want more in the velocity dept, I'll load up the .357 brass. Just my ideas. Mike

[Southern Shooter]

FYI: This is the exact wad-cutter that I am using.

60514

[David2011]

FYI: This is the exact wad-cutter that I am using.

60514

Southern Shooter,

Those are not the same as Speer wadcutters so start low and work your load up. Speer's listings are based on their bullets which are dead soft swaged bullets and not cast like yours which are probably much harder. Also note that the hollow based WC calls for much lighter loads than the solid based bullets. The hollow based WC can't help but obturate at any power level.

For years I shot 2.3 grains of Bullseye behind wadcutters cast in a Saeco mold. The alloy was 19 lb COWW and 1 lb Monotype. They were very pleasant and extremely accurate.

David

[Southern Shooter]

My most often used load with these wadcutter is 3.0 grains of Bullseye. Seems to work good.

[lwknight]

The charts show light charges. Load em light and have fun or increase to take care of business.
With those conservative loads 10 grains of bullet weight will not have much affect.
The 38 spl is the worlds easiest and most forgiving environment.

[newton]

Boolit weight is not but one piece of the pie when it comes to pressure. Inside 'dead space' has as much to do with pressure as boolit weight and charge. OAL is very important. That is the main issue i am seeing with those pictures. There is no OAL given.

You can see pressure difference with velocity change a lot of the time. You cannot tell what the pressure is, but more pressure means more velocity.

Now my example. I have a 45colt/acp convertible. I loaded the same boolitin both. I loaded the colt with 6 grains of unique, and the acp with 4.7 grains. They were both seated outside the case to the same depth, almost. However, the acp had way less room inside the case between powder and boolit. These were shot from the same gun, the same day.

The colt clocked in at 700 fps. Nice mild load. The acp was snappy, with its 1.3 less grain charge, yet clocked at 850 fps. Conclusion, less space meant higher pressure.

Those hollow base boolits are loaded deeper than the heavier ones. That is why they have a lesser charge associated with them.

[DrCaveman]

Straight away, the loads suggested for BB WC seem higher than most of the 'accuracy' loads that I have seen. Loads using bullseye seem to fall between 2.7-3.2 gr for tons of people, including those who claim to have used those loads for 50+ years.

I don't doubt them, and my own modest experimentation has shown a similar tendency: med/light loads for wadcutters seem to result in better accuracy.

Semiwadcutters in my experience can show accuracy at higher velocities. Even if I am wrong, It seems irresponsible for Speer to suggest that those three 158 gr bullets will perform exactly the same without providing the OAL used. They don't look to have crimp grooves at exactly the same locations, so seating depth would be up to the reloader.

Like said above, look at more manuals. Or online data. Or search here for loads. Or ask someone here about loads you are considering.

[Bullwolf]

I try to be extra careful with flush seated wad cutters. I know most folks think of them as really light soft shooting loads, but the lack of case capacity from a deep or flush seated wad cutter with its corresponding short OAL worries me a little bit.

I am going to post a pic shamelessly robbed from another thread regarding deep seating depth, an pressure increases here.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=105592&d=1371757632

In most cases I am not a fan of flush seated wad cutters at all, unless it's for a specific gun like a Smith Model 52 auto, or a certain accuracy load. I like to leave myself quite a bit of margin for error. I generally prefer a Semi wad cutter design, and letting the boolit sit out a bit farther in the case.

I will ALWAYS start milder, and work up a load for the brass, components, and the gun with any wad cutter load by looking at data from a few different sources, then comparing that again with modern load data before deciding on a starting point.

I have a few of the older Speer books as well. In some of them, the loads were kind of on the warm side. I like to cross check them with the current powder manufacturers online data, or one of those freebie reloading powder manufacturer pamphlets often found on the counter of your local gun shop, and the more recent Lyman Cast Handbook 4th edition, and the Lyman#49th reloading guide looking to see if the older Speer book data is reasonable, or somewhat suspect.

Someone here once pointed out that many of the powders that we used say 20-30 years ago are no longer manufactured, and the ones that still are can be quite a bit different today. That sounds like a good reason to me for using a modern reloading manual, especially when loading with a modern (recent lot) powder, rather than relying on that old trusty Speer book as much as I liked to use it back in the day.

I prefer light charges of powders like Bullseye, Red Dot or Win 231 for my wad cutter applications. Not saying those are the best choices in powders either. I just tend to stick with what I am familiar with, and what I previously used that worked well for me in the past.

Always be careful to check for a stuck or squib boolit when shooting light loads. Firing another round into a bore obstruction, that didn't tie up the cylinder can ruin a persons whole day. A wad cutter load that successfully clears the muzzle from a 2 inch snub nose revolver, may not exit from a longer length revolver barrel, or a lever action rifle or carbine quite as easily.


- Bullwolf

[DrCaveman]

Yeah bullwolf

First, nice profile pic.

Second, stuck bullets (yeah jacketed) can ruin a person's day even without firing another round. My first one resulted in dowel splinters all up in my bore, and bore was not cleared. Then I had another in my other 357 same day (same load too, lesson learned. That one was quickly highlighted in RED) which I was able to remove with the remainder of the dowel. The rest of the shooting day was a waste due to an uncontrollable quiver in my shooting hand... I dreaded hearing that 'pop, wheeeee' sound instead of 'pop, BOOM, echoing around the draw I was shooting in.

Since then I carry a brass rod for all outings which will include some untested light loads. Of course, I haven't used it a single time since. Glad I have it though.

Last, I like that graphic a lot, I wish there were more for more cartridge/powder/bullet combos. Where did you get it, if I may ask?

[Bullwolf]

Yeah bullwolf

First, nice profile pic.



Thanks. Love those wacky Labradors. I have a black Lab, and a white one. They are complete characters. I almost used a different pic instead for my avatar, but decided against it.

Your avatar picture has lots of personality as well.



Second, stuck bullets (yeah jacketed) can ruin a person's day even without firing another round. My first one resulted in dowel splinters all up in my bore, and bore was not cleared. Then I had another in my other 357 same day (same load too, lesson learned. That one was quickly highlighted in RED) which I was able to remove with the remainder of the dowel. The rest of the shooting day was a waste due to an uncontrollable quiver in my shooting hand... I dreaded hearing that 'pop, wheeeee' sound instead of 'pop, BOOM, echoing around the draw I was shooting in.

Since then I carry a brass rod for all outings which will include some untested light loads. Of course, I haven't used it a single time since. Glad I have it though.



Stuck boolits are no fun! I picked up a longish piece of 1/4 inch brass rod myself from a local hardware store. I use it to slug barrels with. I sort of wrap electrical tape O-rings around it, like on an Outers Foul Out rod, so it wont touch the crown, or the bore. I have a smaller diameter piece og brass rod that I use as well (dunno the size) for .22 caliber stuff.

I cut a small section off the 1/4 inch brass rod, and I keep it in my pistol range bag in case I squib a boolit or a J-word while shooting someplace other than my own property. If you don't have a squib, or range rod handy, and you stick a boolit, your day at the range is pretty much over.

I haven't had a squib ever since I put the rod in my range bag of course. Helped a friend remove a splintered piece of wood from a barrel once, and I never want to do that again.




Last, I like that graphic a lot, I wish there were more for more cartridge/powder/bullet combos. Where did you get it, if I may ask?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=105592&d=1371757632

I first saw that picture posted a while back on another thread here on Cast Boolits. I can't remember who posted it originally, or unfortunately manage to find it easily with a search to give the original poster credit. Wish that I could, but maybe they will see this thread and respond. Glad that I saved a copy of it now.

I thought the picture came from the older Hercules powder company. It was referenced for mysterious Ka-booms using Bullseye powder, and double charges. I liked it because it showed that seating depth is more likely to cause a drastic increase in pressure, than just a double charge. (at least with a small charge of Bullseye in a 38 Special case) I thought that Larry Gibson, Beagle, or another one of our more knowledgeable contributors originally posted the picture, or they were at least involved in the discussion. I liked the picture enough to save it, and think that it should be required reading in ALL reloading manuals in my opinion. Some loading manuals out there don't even list a cartridge overall length, or mention the correlation between OAL, case capacity, seating depth, and increased pressure.


- Bullwolf

[rintinglen]

Speer intended for the BBWC to be crimped in the crimp groove, this reduces substantially the amount of boolit in the case. This, combined with the lighter weight, accounts for most of the seeming discrepancy. They offered that boolit at plus p velocities. I shot many pounds of Red Dot, using Wadcutter boolits of similar design, 4.0 grains at a time and never strained a gun. However, seat the boolit flush, and you can increase preasures markedly as Hercules demonstrated in the research that lead to the diagram published above. That resulted from a series of pre-internet rumors about light loads of Bullseye "Detonating" and destroying target revolvers. (Funny how these rumors suddenly started flying when Winchester introduced their rival WW-231 powder, but I'm just a fat old cynic.) Hercules spent a bunch of money, time and material investigating the reported phenomena and eventually published a report which pretty much put paid to the supposed "2.7 Surprise" speculation.

[David2011]

When I load wadcutters I like to leave just a little boolit extending beyond the case mouth, if for no other reason than they're just a little easier to get into the cylinder.

In a previous post I mentioned shooting them as light as 2.3 grains of Bullseye but eventually settled in at 2.7-2.8 grains just because it felt more solid. They were lots of fun.

David