Question on Win/Miroku 1886 COL

[NSB]

I've got two Win/Miroku guns. One is a High Wall and the other (new) is an 1886. The 1886 won't accept the same loaded round that I use in the High Wall. Pardon me for saying, but I'm using J-bullets right now since I kind of gave up on cast in the High Wall. Couldn't get any to shoot very well. The load I'm using is a 350 grain Hornady FP with a col of 2.535". It shoots great in the High Wall but won't allow me to close the action in the 1886. According to the reloading books, it's under the correct col for this gun and it fits into the High Wall with no problem. Since Miroku made both guns this seems odd. Anyone else have any problems with these bullets? Also, the Rem 405 grain JSP won't fit either...it's longer than the 350 Hornady but it's crimped at the shortest cannalure and it fits in the High Wall also. Any thoughts or suggestions?

[fouronesix]

Does a resized case, without bullet, chamber? Also check case length- trim if needed. Are you using the crimp shoulder in the seating die to crimp the case mouth? Overdoing the roll crimp can wrinkle the case just enough to impede chambering.

You can blacken a loaded round with marker including the full diameter portion of the bullet and the case walls. Carefully chamber the round and extract- then check where the interference is. Could be a few things- eliminate or identify the easy ones first.

[Just Duke]

The meplat is to wide. I had the same problem with a mould made by one of the guys here. Any of the SAECO mould will work fine.

[NSB]

Does a resized case, without bullet, chamber? Also check case length- trim if needed. Are you using the crimp shoulder in the seating die to crimp the case mouth? Overdoing the roll crimp can wrinkle the case just enough to impede chambering.

You can blacken a loaded round with marker including the full diameter portion of the bullet and the case walls. Carefully chamber the round and extract- then check where the interference is. Could be a few things- eliminate or identify the easy ones first.

fouronesix,
I guess I should have added that a Rem 300 grain JHP will load with no problem. I'm using the crimp in the die but it's not much of a crimp and is not overdone. Cases are trimmed to correct length. I'll try blackening the bullet and see what it's hitting. Seems odd the Rem bullets fit fine and the Hornady 350 are not. Definately different profiles but the Hornady isn't a heavy bullet for this caliber and like I said, the High Wall uses them with no problem, and Miroku made both guns.

[NSB]

The meplat is to wide. I had the same problem with a mould made by one of the guys here. Any of the SAECO mould will work fine.

Good thought. Now here's my "dumb question of the week". Can I shorten the cases up some and use these bullets? I have about 500 of them. Like I said, they work in the High Wall gun and Miroku made both guns.

[Just Duke]

Good thought. Now here's my "dumb question of the week". Can I shorten the cases up some and use these bullets? I have about 500 of them. Like I said, they work in the High Wall gun and Miroku made both guns.

I'm up if you want to give me a jingle.

[fouronesix]

fouronesix,
I guess I should have added that a Rem 300 grain JHP will load with no problem. I'm using the crimp in the die but it's not much of a crimp and is not overdone. Cases are trimmed to correct length. I'll try blackening the bullet and see what it's hitting. Seems odd the Rem bullets fit fine and the Hornady 350 are not. Definately different profiles but the Hornady isn't a heavy bullet for this caliber and like I said, the High Wall uses them with no problem, and Miroku made both guns.

Obviously, something is not right. If you have eliminated all other possible causes then blacken the bullet, chamber, extract and see if the lands are showing. That indicates nose profile (not meplat) is a little wrong for your chamber. You don't even have to blacken the bullet. You can look for the land marks in the bullet- on the ogive just before the bullet's diameter goes to .458 on the shank (somewhere between .450 and .458 diameter). Blackening just makes it easier to see.

I would not trim the case down to shorten the OAL though. You can seat the bullet deeper and attempt to crimp into the bullet wall with a LEE FCD or use a bullet with the crimp groove that is in the right place for your chamber. I'm surprised the Rem 405 JSP won't chamber when seated and crimped into the groove????

All in all it may indicate your 86 has a somewhat short throat, not necessarily bad just have to use bullets that are compatible.

[Just Duke]

Nice chatting with you today NSB. Hope I helped you out.

[PbHurler]

Here’s some info I posted in a prior thread regarding 1886's:

“I just recently checked this out myself. My MIROKU Win. 1886 has an unGodly short throating. I am unable to load the NOE 460-350Gr RF or the Accurate 460 350B moulds for my rifle; the ogive(s) bear on the rifling and the lever won't close without forcing the noses further into the rifling (bad idea).
Damn shame for me too, as I REALLY like these bullets. (I guess I could have a 'smith correct this though)

While checking the Accurate 460 350B bullet; I kept trimming an old case to see what it would take to feed this bullet. I'd need to trim to 2.060" case length to get it to feed reliably (not about to do this).

The moulds I can load without any issues are the RCBS designs; 300Gr FN, 325Gr FN-U & 405Gr FN's and the SAECO #017 350Gr. FN.”

Also:
“GARCIA” had posted, he sent his 1886 to Clements Custom & had the throating corrected. (damn shame we need to send NEW guns off to be corrected for our needs!)
He also stated the cost was around $100.00

Here’s a link to the entire discussion:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?179986-45-70-Loads-for-1886-Winchester

Hope this might help you out...

[NSB]

PbHurler,
Clements Custom for a hundred bucks doesn't sound too bad. Can you tell me where they are? I'll give them a call. Thanks.

[PbHurler]

OK; Here's what my search turned up, but I have not dealt with them, nor do I know if this is whom GARCIA used. I'd shoot GARCIA a PM to verify if this is the same smith he used prior to contacting them.

http://www.clementscustomguns.com/home.html

[Just Duke]

You don't want to change the rifle only the bullet. Sir
The SAECO 300, 350 and 405 feed flawlessly. I have done more extensive testing than anyone here or on the net for the Winchester/Browning Miroku 1886 and have a dedicated forum with documentation to the said bullets. You can also add the 485 grain RCBS to the function moulds also. The Gould is also another good one from what I'm told although I have none to test but would surely entertain the research if some were sent to me.
Here's what i have come up with. HERE (http://50caliberforum.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=thewinchester1886forum)

[PbHurler]

Good point Duke,
We might want to shoot a particular style of bullet, but it just isn't in the cards. BUT, we can certainly find a different design in the desired weight that DOES work.

Thanks for the link too,
I'll be spendin' some time there myself.

Buy the way, those are some beautiful rifles you've posted! ;-)