Need some help deciding on a Rolling Block

[Argentino]

Hi all,

I saw a Remington Rolling Bock last week. It´s a Modelo Argentino 1879 in original caliber (.43 Spanish/11,15 x 57 R)

Pretty acceptable in the outside (despite the fact it has been polished and rounded to death, and then reblued).

However the critical thing is that the bore looks like a sewer pipe and is pretty worn at the muzzle (rifling is almost gone at the muzzle end); the stocks are in good condition and the action is complete and seems to work properly.

The price is around 120$ (bare in mind that a good one would cost about five times that much: they go about 500-600$ in my country).

My questions are:

-Do you think it is an aceptable price? (even if it turns out that the action is the only good part of it?)

-If I buy this one, I would like to give that old barrel a try: should I try some paper patching for the .43 Spanish?
Like I said, the barrel looks like a sewer pipe but the rifling seems to be strong except at the muzzle where it is almost gone: do you think I can try some PP with any chances of success?

Do you have some experience with RBs in similar conditions (corroded or w/worn barrels)? Can I expect some success by PP it?

I know it´s difficult to answer my questions without any pictures or bore measurings but any experience that you might have can really help me a lot in making a decision.


Thanks a lot.

[Boz330]

Sounds like a good price. I would jump on it in a heartbeat, an action here will run $400.

As far as the barrel goes it might just need a good cleaning other than the muzzle. You could get someone to counterbore the muzzle down to good rifling. Since you are in Argentina I don't know the availability of barrel liners but that would be another way to go. I would try shooting it first though and see what happens.

Bob

[NickSS]

I agree with Boz it's a good price if the action is sound. As for the barrel it would not hurt to give it a good cleaning and try it. if the muzzle is really worn (not uncommon for military rifles) it can be counter bored to see if that works. At worst the action is worth the price.

[Argentino]

Thanks a lot guys. I finally bought it.

Good thing is I got a 50$ discount in the asking price so I ended up paying only 70$ for it! :bigsmyl2:

They also had another RB carbine at almost the same price (75$) but in worst condition: only the action was of any use.
However I missed that carbine since I didn´t have the money for both of them and when I came back it was already sold. :(

Anyway I´m now in the process of disassembling & cleaning the rifle; I´m also converting some .375 H&H brass to .43 Spanish. Interesting process, I never did it before. I´ll post some pics soon.

Thanks again for your help.

[Denny303]

O how id love to find a rolling block for $70! im not sure what that is in American dollars tho.

[olddaddy]

You could make a good living buying and selling them to guys like me in the USA. I'd pay you double your $70 price for just the action.....and pay shipping from you to me. Probably have trouble with customs, but it's age might get it past the inspectors.....next time you find one you don't want send me a pm.....where there is a will there is a way.

[John Boy]

Argentino - might want to keep your eye open for a 43 Spanish replacement barrel. It is a very accurate caliber ... shooting mine at 200-500m and 1000yds. The caliber performs IMHO much better with black powder reloads. It's kissing cousin is the 44-77 ... another accurate caliber

[Clark]

I saw a 7mm rolling block in a pawn shop for $325 in January.
I came back two days later to get it and it was gone.

I saw a rolling block for $495 at the gun show Saturday.
I offered $400 and he took it.
He said that if I ever figure out what cartridge it is, please tell him.
I said I thought it was 7mm, but we will see.

I got it home and it has what looks like a Douglas .358" groove 12" or 14" twist barrel and a 38 special chamber.
The chamber is WAY tighter than SAAMI specs. It starts at .380" at the rear and tapers down going forward.

Monday I worked up a 158 gr XTP Bullseye load to what Quickload thinks is QL 216,952 psi.
The case head just in front of the groove and rim expanded from ~ .375" to .385".
That jammed the rifle. But I got the block forward and got the hammer back and pounded out the case.
The rifle is none the worse for wear.
It No.5 1902 or 1910 model.
I just bought it for the action.
The action has passed the acid test.
I don't know what I will rebarrel it to, possible 257 Roberts Ackley Improved rimmed or 7mm Rem Mag.

[bigted]

WOWWW...216,952 PSI ??? ....... this has to be a miss print. id never test a rolling block at 1/3rd that pressure...and then I don't know if I would trust it after such a tremendous pressure on an old action...even a 1900's model designed for smokeless powder. id be surprised if the newer rollers would continuously withstand even a steady diet of 40K loads

do tell...will you have everything magnafluxed to check for pin//block//hammer//action body ...for minute cracks and or breaks both stress and pressure cracks?

to the original poster...as for getting a Spanish roller...it will be the best time you ever had...I finally got a Remington in the 43 Spanish round and man do I have fun with the thing...don't know what took me so long.

[Nobade]

I saw a 7mm rolling block in a pawn shop for $325 in January.
I came back two days later to get it and it was gone.

I saw a rolling block for $495 at the gun show Saturday.
I offered $400 and he took it.
He said that if I ever figure out what cartridge it is, please tell him.
I said I thought it was 7mm, but we will see.

I got it home and it has what looks like a Douglas .358" groove 12" or 14" twist barrel and a 38 special chamber.
The chamber is WAY tighter than SAAMI specs. It starts at .380" at the rear and tapers down going forward.

Monday I worked up a 158 gr XTP Bullseye load to what Quickload thinks is QL 216,952 psi.
The case head just in front of the groove and rim expanded from ~ .375" to .385".
That jammed the rifle. But I got the block forward and got the hammer back and pounded out the case.
The rifle is none the worse for wear.
It No.5 1902 or 1910 model.
I just bought it for the action.
The action has passed the acid test.
I don't know what I will rebarrel it to, possible 257 Roberts Ackley Improved rimmed or 7mm Rem Mag.

I do hope you are trying to make a joke of some sort here.

-Nobade

[JHeath]

At the risk of spoiling Clark's fun, I'll play the peacemaker and urge everybody to hear him out. Clark has elsewhere discovered that Quickload has trouble calculating pressures for "overloads" in straight-wall cases. So I'm guessing that the 216k may be an artifact of that, and that Clark actually worked his .38 Special RB into a .357 "Magnuson" with calculated pressures of 216k but actual pressures much lower.

What I don't understand from his post is Clark's take on the failure mode of a Rolling Block. I've learned a lot about reloading from his posts about massive "overloads" of 9x23 Win in rechambered Tokarev pistols, and other experiments. But in the Tokarev experiments he could rely on the failure mode being expanded primer pockets or at worst a blow case. I.e. not a catastrophic split barrel/frame/slide. Ditto with his other experiments; he's got a grasp of failure modes when he goes sailing off the loading-book map into the seas where "there be dragons."

I know little about the failure mode of Rolling Blocks. How does a hot .38 Special load compare to a reduced 7x57 load in breech thrust, etc.? My guess is that Clark knows he can gauge .38 case head expansion before he goes too far for the action.

If Clark is good enough to keep posting about this experiment, I expect to learn something applicable to loading generally and not limited to RBs.

[Clark]

The last shot in the work up with double powder the max load for 357 mag, popped the block open, pushed the hammer back, and got the extractor stuck. The hammer and block were stuck. Nearly every part was involved. To clear it, I knocked the block forward until it pushed down the deformed case, seen in the pic on the far right. The spanner holes in firing pin bushing are ~ .063". The 38 special brass was flowing into those holes from 1.5 gr above 357 max published all the way to 6.5 gr above max published when the work up ended. I don't know if those 0.063" growths on the case head were what kept the block open.

What does it all mean?
The No.5 rolling block is like a Handi Rifle, push it hard enough in a work up, and it pops open. But it is unharmed.
I think the handi rifle may be from recoil acceleration on the release lever and the rolling block may be from hammer bounce, but I don't know.

[EDG]

Hello Clark,
You know me from my reloading handle at another site. Just a quick comment. A former co-worker had one of the 7mm RRBs blow a case head. From what we could tell the chamber had the shoulder cut further forward with the same 57mm long case. Apparently the heavy blow of the firing pin drove the case neck into the origin of the rifling. The case head expanded and the firing pin pierced the primer. It appears that the leaking gas got by the firing pin and blew the hammer back. The breech block opened and the primer was left stuck to the firing pin. The primer pocket was expanded about .020 oversize but the case remained in the chamber.

[Clark]

EDG,
That is a better explanation of what happened than I could come up with:(

I have only owned a rolling block for 5 days, and now I think they are gas operated:)

[JHeath]

It looks like the the R-P brass was stronger than the W-W, and the primers did not pierce.

I am not very familiar with RBs. But I gather a mechanical sequence caused the hammer to retract during firing, at a point when there was enough residual breech pressure to move the block but not blow the case. If not gas, what could act on the hammer? The small amount of play in the block?

Maybe the rifle accelerated rearward until encountering Clark's anvil-like shoulder, stopping so suddenly that the mass of the hammer retracted against its spring.

[Argentino]

O how id love to find a rolling block for $70! im not sure what that is in American dollars tho.

That´s right, US dollars.

[Argentino]

You could make a good living buying and selling them to guys like me in the USA. I'd pay you double your $70 price for just the action.....and pay shipping from you to me. Probably have trouble with customs, but it's age might get it past the inspectors.....next time you find one you don't want send me a pm.....where there is a will there is a way.
Actually, Customs at my country are a trouble if you intend to export or import any gun manufactured after 1870. Guns manufactured prior to that date can be delivered without needing all the paperwork involved in post-1870 guns or gun parts. Besides, and unfortunately, I think we are drying out our supply of old remmies around here: the rolling blocks were pretty common here since they were issued by our Army during late 1860´s and almost up to late 1880s wen they switched to bolt action Mauser Argentine Model1891.
However the huge surplus of RB rifles was sold to the US around 40 years ago. It´s not quite easy to obtain a .43 RB in good condition, and most of those seems to be in the 600-700u$ range. I was pretty lucky to obtain these one at that price, even when it´s not in very good condition, is not that common to happen.

[Argentino]

Argentino - might want to keep your eye open for a 43 Spanish replacement barrel. It is a very accurate caliber ... shooting mine at 200-500m and 1000yds. The caliber performs IMHO much better with black powder reloads. It's kissing cousin is the 44-77 ... another accurate caliber

WOW. That´s an interesting thing to do! To analyze the performance of such an old caliber at those distances it´s something that I would like to know about.

I wasn´t able to shot it at more than 45 yards but I made a great progress actually: by using paper patched bullets with the right paper thickness I was able to shot at that distance a 240 gn boolit intended for .44 Rem. Mag., patched up to .446/.448" under 8.0 gns of Unique, 10 shots placed in a circle of about 5". Considering the bad conditionof the barrel at the muzzle I think tis is not bad at all. Plusthe paper patched bullets seems tobe cleaning up the barrel pretty well, the rust inside is fading away for sure and some brighter metal is starting to reveal with every new bore cleaning.

[brstevns]

WOW. That´s an interesting thing to do! To analyze the performance of such an old caliber at those distances it´s something that I would like to know about.

I wasn´t able to shot it at more than 45 yards but I made a great progress actually: by using paper patched bullets with the right paper thickness I was able to shot at that distance a 240 gn boolit intended for .44 Rem. Mag., patched up to .446/.448" under 8.0 gns of Unique, 10 shots placed in a circle of about 5". Considering the bad conditionof the barrel at the muzzle I think tis is not bad at all. Plusthe paper patched bullets seems tobe cleaning up the barrel pretty well, the rust inside is fading away for sure and some brighter metal is starting to reveal with every new bore cleaning. How is it doing now?