Lets move all Armalite rifle discussions out of the Military section!

[Screwbolts]

As pointed out in a previous thread the Armalite Rifle (AR) in the designation of 10 or 15 and all associated components are not military rifles and there for should not be part of the military rifle discussions. They are indeed SPORTING RIFLES! It has to start somewhere . This is were it should start today!! They are Sporting Rifles!

With the National assault on this type of sporting rifle, IMHO it is important that we as owners/users of these fine Sporting Rifles change the way we refer to them and talk about them!

What does it take to get a section dedicated to the discussions of this fine sporting rifle, the Armalite Rifle, and all its parts.

Know the Constitution!

Know your Values!

Know your Principles !

And do not waver from any of the above!

[badgeredd]

I think you have a valid point and support the request. After all, isn't the M2 the official military rifle for general arm for the soldier?

Edd

[Artful]

So you want another section like leveraction but for self loading rifles of modern design - say after 1947?
Move AK-47 clone, AR clone, M-14's etc there?
Sporting Rifles ... Modern Sporting Rifles...Personal Defense Weapons... what do you want to call this

[mtnman31]

My preference would be to not open up a new section. Saying they aren't military rifles is splitting hairs; like saying that an FAL or AK type rifle isn't a military rifle because it isn't capable of fully auto fire. AR's may not be an area of military rifles that some folks are interested in but the opposite side of the coin is that there are folks that have an interest in AR's and aren;t interested in military bolt rifles or Garands. Keep the AR's in the military rifle section.

[Larry Gibson]

I wasn't aware (I think I have some knowledge of the Constitution) that "SPORTING RIFLES" were exclusively included and military ones weren't in the 2nd Ammendment?

I think if we start "political correctness" as is requested were are retreating and thus are doomed to defeat. Both the AR10 (it was in fact the 1st AR) and the AR 15 are both civilian versions of the military rifle. Where do you want to stop.....at the M1.....the M1A.....the M1 Carbine.......?

While I appreciate the good intentions I have to disagree with the idea, this forum is for military style rifles so I say we make the statement that there is nothing wrong with owning and shooting a military style rifle, even an AR10 or AR15, and leave them right here where they belong.

Larry Gibson

[koehn,jim]

Both sides have points, I would suggest limiting it to members so a casual google check does not show it. That way non members dont see all the evil rifle discussions.

[nekshot]

I agree Larry, there is no way now to concede in any thing concerning firearms! United we stand!

[Multigunner]

Well if you move the AR to another section you may as well move any threads on the replica STG44, the civilian manufactured M1 carbine clones, the M1A1, FAL, etc.

[bob208]

i tend to agree. better yet would be to find the old adds when the ar 15 was brought out to the public. i was in high school the adds said the new sporting rifle good for anything deer and smaller it showed the rifle with a 15 round mag too. said nothing about mall nijas mass shootersor even police use.

[Hamish]

Multi and a couple of others have summed it up very well. Even if there were no members of CB who own and shoot FA AR's, the SA AR's owned by so many of us are EXACTLY what the military carries except for the third position of the safety.

So, are we going to move Browning BAR of today out because they are the SA version of the FA BAR of the World Wars?

[WineMan]

I believe the 2nd A only said "Arms" (arms) depending on which version you read. Later court decisions and Acts have refined this to be more specific. At the time the Founding Fathers could consider single shot rifles, pistols, cannon, carronades, mortars all fueled by Black Powder (gunpowder) as arms. They also thought of Militias as the organized group to protect the people. Sporting arms were only arms used in a sport like target shooting. I am sure they would be the same arms used for any other purpose.

Dave

[herbert buckland]

I agree Larry, there is no way now to concede in any thing concerning firearms! United we stand!Any back down is going to percived a win for the anti gun mob and give them confedence to go futher.When they took away semie autos in Australia it did not satisfy the gun grabers,it only embolderd them.As much as I agree with background checks on all gun sales I would also fight against this as any win be seen as a start for these people.

[Pepe Ray]

To compromise is to surrender.
Compromise is ONLY for marriages.

[waksupi]

When I see military rifles in the heading, I assume milsurps.

[Screwbolts]

The following was meant to be part of my signature and a statement, not meant to be part of the subject of the post, sorry for the confusion.



Know the Constitution!

Know your Values!

Know your Principles !

And do not waver from any of the above!

[MtGun44]

I'm with waksupi.

As far as using the term "assault rifle" - I intend to use it correctly, for a REAL select fire military rifle, NOT
for a military looking semiauto.

Bill

[Baron von Trollwhack]

I'm with Larry. This is not the place to play "PC" games. To do so is to play the pc games of the CONSTITUTION deniers. Don't buy into the "NY" syndrome.

BvT

[skimmerhead]

i don't mean to tickle any toes here because i own four mil surp firearms, but thanks to obamalama i have purchaced an AR15, not that i really wanted one. i don't know what i'm gonna do with as they don't interest me much. my question is what category would this rifle falls in? is it a sporting rifle? is it a military rifle? i know this opens a can of worms and there in lies alot of opinions. my concern is with proposed gun bans and what is considered a leagal weapon. also if i decide to keep the rifle and have any questions about this type of rifle where do i post questions about it? i hope i'm not stepping on any toes, if i am i apoligize in advance because this post is meant to be educational on my part. thank's
skimmerhead

[MGySgt]

I believe AR's are clones of Military weapons, and just like the 1903 Springfield, K98 Mauser, M1's and M14's (AKA M1A's) they all transcended to the sporting fields.

More and more AR's are showing up in the woods/fields hunting.

An AR15 with a good barrel/upper is showing up for PDogs and Coyotes where the shooting can be fast and furious. They are viable. With rounds like the 300 Blackout and 50 Beauwolf and other calibers are in the Deer caliber and more.

AR10's in 308 are showing up in the dear woods.

But their origin is still the Mattee Matel that is so dear to our hearts and sole :)

And they belong in the Military Section with cast boolits.

If you want to discuss them with J Boolits or their own forum go to an AR sight.

Just my 2 cents worth.

[uscra112]

There's so darn MANY of 'em that I think they deserve their own section.

But for me the distinction is that that 99.9% of AR-clones in public hands were never actually military issue rifles, while our Springfield/Garand/Mauser/Enfield/Moisin/Schmidt-Rubin/SKS toys most definitely were in actual service at one time, and have the scars to prove it.

[MGySgt]

The M1A was never in combat - it is a clone of the M14, so in your line of thinking it should have it's own forum too.

[HollowPoint]

Just make it a sub-section of the existing Military rifle section; the same way they've made
"Barrels" a sub-section of the Gunsmithing part of this forum.

HollowPoint

[Screwbolts]

The M1A was never in combat - it is a clone of the M14, so in your line of thinking it should have it's own forum too.

Are you asking a question or stating a opinion?

No, IMHO, the AR (Armalite Rifle) is not a clone of anything, a clone of the military M16 would have full auto capability, select fire, thus making it a clone. the M16 is the military enhanced ( different ) version of the design.

., cloned, clon·ing, clones.

v.tr.

To make multiple identical copies of (a DNA sequence).
To create or propagate (an organism) from a clone cell: clone a sheep.
To reproduce or propagate asexually: clone a plant variety.
To produce a copy of; imitate closely: "The look has been cloned into cliché" (Cathleen McGuigan).

The Armalite Rifle " AR " design is the civilian rifle from a company that designed and produce a military Rifle M16. The Military rifle was not designated AR-take your pick of numbers.

FYI, more states governments are buying into the NY ****, and yes we are doing all we can to stop the implementation of the NY **** here in NY.

[P.K.]

Just make it a sub-section of the existing Military rifle section; the same way they've made
"Barrels" a sub-section of the Gunsmithing part of this forum.

HollowPoint

That right there would do it.

[Del-Ray]

Didn't the Air Force use Ar-15's before any other service?

I know it's wiki but:

"ArmaLite sold its rights to the AR-15 to Colt in 1959.[17] The AR-15 was first adopted in 1962 by the United States Air Force, ultimately receiving the designation M16. The U.S. Army began to field the XM16E1 en masse in 1965 with most of them going to the Republic of Vietnam, and the newly organized and experimental Airmobile Divisions, the 1st Air Cavalry Division in particular. The U.S. Marine Corps in South Vietnam also experimented with the M16 rifle in combat during this period."
-http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M16_rifle


"The M16 rifle, officially designated Rifle, Caliber 5.56 mm, M16, is the United States military version of the AR-15 rifle. The rifle was adapted for semi-automatic, three-round burst, and full-automatic fire.[6] Colt purchased the rights to the AR-15 from ArmaLite, and currently uses that designation only for semi-automatic versions of the rifle."
-same place. LOL

So they were ALL Ar-15 at one point. So I guess it's still a military weapon after all.

[Larry Gibson]

The M1A was never in combat - it is a clone of the M14, so in your line of thinking it should have it's own forum too.

Never say "never"; I know of several NG and USAR units who took M1As to Iraq and Afghanistan and used them "in combat". I also am aware of several that went to Rhodisia also and were used "in combat" there by several members of military units.

Larry Gibson

[MGySgt]

Yea Larry you are right AGAIN.

But I stand by that the M1A is the civilian version of the M14. I think you pointed out to me awhile ago that the military M14 receivers have the hole/capibility for full auto and that is why Springfield/Fulton armory/Armscorp had to create/make their own receivers so they could not have a few parts added to go full auto. (Acutally I think there was only one manufacturer of the M14 civilian version which most call the M1A.)

By the way we used Win mod 70's and Rem 700 in Vietnam as sniper rifles (some shipped by the 'Snipers' family along with off the shelf Redfield scopes)

So does that make the Mod 70 and Mod 700 Military weapons???

Also I believe the first M14's to show up in Iraq and Afganistan were MIA's and not from the old M14 stockpile.

[Larry Gibson]

But I stand by that the M1A is the civilian version of the M14.

Certianly won't disagree with that. The "militarized" civilian weapons used in several wars were indeed considered military weapons when adopted and given military nomenclature; such as the numerous shotguns, handguns, and the M700 became the M40.

Actually the 1st into the Iraq theater were the M14s as used by SEALs and A/1/19th SFGA had them with them in Kuwait on a MTT prior to the Iraq war. They were sucked up by AC SF and were in the lead going in (they actually were the ones on the 1st C130s that landed in Baghdad and they seized Saddam's main palace there). That SF company has always had some very good M14s and the equipment to go with them as I made sure of that when I was the Operations/Readiness NCO of that company. Those M14s most often accompanied the Company's A-Teams into Iraq and Afghanistan and a few other s**tholes around the world prior to that war. I was presented a very nice framed picture of a "dig" (one of many I trained over the years) in the weeds in the far east and he is armed with an M14.........

Larry Gibson

[uscra112]

I don't think the line should be drawn at whether or not the gun saw combat. My criterion would be "was it commonly issued in significant numbers to regular army troops".

[Del-Ray]

I don't think the line should be drawn at whether or not the gun saw combat. My criterion would be "was it commonly issued in significant numbers to regular army troops".

So since the Air Force issued AR-15s it is a military arm.

[7br]

I am feeling a might bitpeevish this morning due to a manager type person I have been loaned out to. I come to this forum looking for information. Why make it harder for me to find what I need just to mollify some idiots that will just find fault with something else? This our site and not theirs.