I need some help with my .44 Bulldog

[Ghugly]

I'm finding vast holes in my knowledge of wheelguns (not a big surprise). My kid got a Charter2000 .44 Bulldog recently and likes it a lot. I shot it a few times and liked its size and power. After reading a few reviews, I bought one too. I had no problems shooting factory fodder (lead, round nose) and hand loaded condoms. Then, not satisfied with lesser ammo, I slugged the barrel (.429) and tried some 429421's, sized to .429 in it..........oops. Sized at .429 both guns spit lead. I can drop the boolits straight through the cylinders, I haven't slugged the cylinders but there is no way in hell any sizing is being done there as the bullets will drop straight through every hole in the cylinders without slowing down. The forcing cone has a 90 degree shoulder at its surface (please forgive my ignorance but I have no idea if this is normal, it seems wrong) and there is no way the front driving band will fit without force, as I tried it. Even if these guns were perfectly clocked, there is no way that I can see them not shaving lead (pounding a flat lead band into a smaller flat steel hole has got to shave lead).

I would greatly appreciate any suggestions that you guys can give me. My first thought was that my cylinder is defective, but my son's is exactly (as best I'm able to judge) the same and has the same problem. Shouldn't the forcing cone have some sort of bevel at its base? It seems to me that having a straight, sharp, flat edge that's smaller than the end of the cylinder is a dumb way to design a gun. Perhaps I'm nit-picking, but it seems to me that a .44 special should be able to shoot a Keith boolit. And, dodging lead tends to make me nervous.

[Scrounger]

They call it a forcing CONE because it is supposed to have some taper. Seems I remember 11 degrees is a popular choice. Obvious manufacturing defect. I would think Charter arms would rather fix it or pay for someone else to fix it rather than pay your Doctor bills for treatment for the spitting lead. (If you get my drift)

[Lloyd Smale]

like scrounger said your pee into the wind if you dont have a forcing cone.

[Scrounger]

I've always wanted one of those BullDogs. Would you mind giving me some idea of what they sell for?

[MtGun44]

I'm not sure we are using the same terminology, so for clarity, please bear
with me. First, some definitions - the forcing cone is a 'countersink' or taper
reamed out at the extreme rear of the barrel. The cylinder throat is the
portion of the cylinder ahead of the chamber. Sometimes these terms are
misunderstood and then the whole thing gets really hard to figure out.

For good accuracy, the bullets of a revolver need to be sized to about 0.001"
greater or equal to the cylinder throat diameter. If the throat is much
larger than the bullet, the bullet will randomly tilt as it is started and you
will get poor accuracy.

If the groove diameter (the biggest dimension of a soft lead slug driven
thru the lubricated bore) of the barrel is larger than the throat diameter,
mediocre to poor accuracy will result. If the groove diameter is smaller
than the throat by a reasonable amount (0.001" to .003" or so) then usually
very good accuracy will result.

If you are using the correct terminology, and you literally have zero taper at
the back of the barrel, or no forcing cone, then you need to either discuss this
with Charter and if it is an error in manufacturing, have them fix it. If they
intended this, you should find a revolversmith and have him cut a forcing
cone into your barrel, as it is necessary, esp for lead bullets.

Summary -

1 - bullet should be sized the same as or 0.001" larger than the
cylinder throat for best accuracy.
2 - cylinder throat should be the same or slightly larger than the bore for
best accuracy.
3 - a revolver barrel needs a enlarged portion at the rear (focing cone) to
smoothly guide the bullet from the cylinder to the barrel. No revolver has
absolutely perfect alignment between the cylinder and the barrel, so a cone
is needed to avoid spitting lead.

Sometimes an oversized cylinder needs to be replaced or a
too tight cylinder reamed (I have done this to improve accuracy) out.
Recutting a forcing cone either more true to the bore center, or larger
or a different angle is a common procedure in revolver work.

Hope this helps, and good luck with your Bulldog.

Bill

[S.R.Custom]

For good accuracy, the bullets of a revolver need to be sized to about 0.001" greater or equal to the cylinder throat diameter. ...Bill

Having had a few of these over the years, I've found that this is easier said than done. Charter/Charco/Charter2000 cylinder throats typically run to .434" and up. Why so huge? I suspect they're trying to bleed off pressure in an effort to keep pressures down in this... how shall we say, marginally crafted revolver...

And all of these that I've owned have hadvery generous forcing cones--18° or so and very wide--as the timing of these belly burners is less than precise... If yours has a minimal forcing cone, I'd have this rectified immediately. These guns are meant to be carried a lot and shot little, and they won't take the abuse of ill timing and no forcing cone for very long...

[Ghugly]

Thanks guys. I paid right at $400 out the door. If you live somewhere outside of this God forsaken pit (California) your price may differ. Bill, our definitions are the same. If it has any taper at all, it's less than I can see. SuperMag, my guess is that the .434 is probably not too far off, a bare .429 boolit seems to rattle around like a BB in a boxcar (perhaps an exaggeration, .431 or so probably). But, that generous forcing cone seems to be missing on our two examples. My son's wife has an old Charter Undercover .38 that belonged to her late father. It is precious to her because it was her father's gun. There is, I'm pleased to say, a lot of difference in the quality of that Charter and mine. It may well still be crap.........but it's a much better grade of crap than they once were. In fact, if it had a forcing cone I'd be rather pleased with it. My son and I both chose them for CCWs, not plinker's, but we do intend to shoot them enough to be comfortable with them. I don't carry what I can't shoot. I do have to say tho....my East German Makarov is a damned work of art in fit and finish compared to these, and it's a 45 year old communist service weapon.......go figure.

Any rough guesstimates on what cutting a forcing cone would run? I'm going to chew on Charter's ear a bit and see what I can do there, but it would be nice to know what kind of cash I'm talking about. I'm afraid that pistol smiths are about as rare as unicorns around here.

[Lloyd Smale]

you can try asking here http://disc.server.com/Indices/107438.html

[Ghugly]

you can try asking here http://disc.server.com/Indices/107438.html

Thank you. They list re-cutting an 11 degree forcing cone at 25 bucks. Seems damned reasonable to me. If I could get it done at anywhere near that price, I wouldn't even waste my time calling Charter. I wonder how it's done. I can't imagine that they could remove the barrel, cut the cone and replace it for that little money.

[Bass Ackward]

Any rough guesstimates on what cutting a forcing cone would run? I'm going to chew on Charter's ear a bit and see what I can do there, but it would be nice to know what kind of cash I'm talking about. I'm afraid that pistol smiths are about as rare as unicorns around here.


Brownel's used to sell a tool for the purpose of re-cutting a forcing cone that did not require removing the barrel. Been 20 years since I saw one.

With the price of shipping, if the factory won't correct the issue, then it could be cheaper to purchase the tool than to ship the gun to a smith.

I had a 38 that was the most accurate gun I ever owned if you would stay with a GC design. Have you tried shooting olgivals in it? The bullet can be your taper, so stay away from really wide meplats.

Buying a new mold could turn out to be the cheapest option of all. If the factory doesn't jump all over you in an attempt to correct the error (if it is one, many guns are being built today not with lead in mind) then I would try and get my hands on some bullets first. I have a 225 grain, GC design that would answer this question for you if you want a few. Use the PM feature if you do.

[Nazgul]

Brownell's still has the tool listed. I bought one a year ago for 45 cal. It does not require the disassembly of the frame/barrel and is a snap to use.

Had a Charter Bulldog 44 and really liked it. Paid $269 on special three years ago. It is not a high end gun but was fun. Almost immediately found a Smith 696 for a good price so the bulldog went away.

[Bret4207]

I have a Charter BD and have zero complaints. Mind you mine is an older model, probably from the early '70's. I shoot 429421's sized at .431 with no spitting at all. Mine does have a decent forcing cone visible, but it's not like my Smiths. I have a vague memory of working on the forcing cone but that may have been on an Iver Johnson.

The newer Charters don't get very good reviews. Neither did the older Charters, but those with a "good one" tend to like them. With factory 246 rn or the 429421 and 6.0 Unique, not a thumper load by any means, I can hold a clay pigeon out to 50 yards with a rest or sitting if my eyes co-operate. It does take some Kentucky windage as the gun shoots low and left. I like mine.

[Scrounger]

Dang you, Ghugly, you made me put in a bid on one of those things, a used one, new model like yours. IF I get it, maybe I can rent that forcing cone reamer from you, or I'll buy it and you can rent it from me. Still a big IF to get by first.

It just closed. I got it for $275 plus $25 shipping plus $20 to my dealer. No box or papers but I can live with that...

[9.3X62AL]

Bass is on to something here, I think. The most common 44 Special load available is the 246 grain lead roundnose, a practically shoulderless design that barely surpasses 700 FPS in a 6" barrel. Shoulderless RN designs are an answer for revolvers that don't index as well as they should--they tend to self-center themselves from throat to barrel origin better than the sharp-shouldered boolit designs do. The Keith/Thompson/SWC boolits rely upon good cylinder indexing and adequate forcing cone taper to do their best work.

[BD]

Cutting a forcing cone is really pretty straight forward. A T-handle goes down the barrel through a guide and the cutter is threaded onto it from the cylinder end. You need lots of a good cutting lube, (cool tool II), and you turn it by hand. I may have a .44 throat cutter out in the shop. It's either here or in Maine. I'll have a look this afternoon.
BD

[EDK]

Since you're handloading for these "pocket rockets," you might try either of the LYMAN 44 COWBOY BULLETS. I get about .433 from the 250 grain mould and .430 from the 200, but casting them soft would help with slugging up. I missed the group buy on the double ended 44 wadcutter, but am on Springfield's for the BIG LUBE 44. That boolit would be good in a snubbie--flat nose, truncuated cone to align and light weight for less recoil.

I use 4.5 to 5.0 of TITEGROUP in 44 Special brass for COWBOY ACTION SHOOTING, but my 5.5 inch BISLEY VAQUEROS probably weight twice what your BULLDOG does. I also shoot this in a 3 inch 696....and it will get attention on both ends!

:redneck: :castmine:

[Ghugly]

you can try asking here http://disc.server.com/Indices/107438.html

I sent an e-mail, asking about the Bulldogs, and got a reply. They will re-cut the forcing cones for $20 each plus shipping and said 1 week turnaround time. Seems like a pretty good deal to me. Do any of you know anything about Clements Custom Guns? I'd feel a little better knowing they aren't some kid with a computer operating out of his bedroom.

I checked Brownell's site and the price isn't too bad. But for $20 plus shipping, having a professional do the job seems a better way to go. I have a better understanding of how the job is done now and it seems like something I could easily do with the right tool. I also understand how they can afford to do it for $20 a pop. The tools aren't that expensive and no disassembly is necessary. If that's all a person did at $20 bucks a pop you could make a pretty good hourly wage.

Welcome to the Bulldog family, Scrounger :drinks: I hope you like it well enough that you don't feel like hunting me down with it.

What do you guys know of Jeff Quinn at Gunblast? His review of the Bulldog was what got us thinking of it in the first place. http://www.gunblast.com/Bulldog_Pug.htm
It wouldn't be fair, or true, to blame-credit him for us buying them. That choice was ours. He does write well and seems to like the Bulldog a lot.

In all honesty, one of the main reasons for my buying the Bulldog is I enjoy hand loading but I hate chasing autoloader brass all over the range. It got so bad one day that I was trading, back and forth, with my kid holding a 5 gallon bucket catching brass on the fly.

[9.3X62AL]

Ghugly--

Chasing brass around from autopistols IS a PITA. Once I figure out the rough landing site for ejected brass, an old blanket or sheet gets spread out on the ground and anchored with rocks to assist in the recovery process. Even so, I shoot a lot more revolver ammo than autopistol cartridges these days.

[Scrounger]

Have you checked shipping costs? Has to be sent UPS Next Day Air, both ways. Depending on where you and they are located, it could easily cost $60 to $100. I'll order the Brownell tool if mine needs it.

[MtGun44]

You've gotten a lot of good advise. I think the shipping thing is what
kills the $20 ream job and makes buying the tool a better deal.
You may see it differently.


The recommendation to shoot very soft bullets is right on. Match
with a very fast powder like Titegroup (which is very position
insensitive and burns consistently in very small quantities in large
volume cases) to whack the soft bullet to upset it into the
oversized cyl throat and get it started straight is also right on.

Timing might be slightly off, but you still need to have a forcing
cone. Hard cast commercial semiwadcutters should exacerbate
the problem, and as previously stated, soft roundnose bullets
should minimize it.

Good luck, report your results for all our edifiction.

Bill

[45nut]

Have you checked shipping costs? Has to be sent UPS Next Day Air, both ways. Depending on where you and they are located, it could easily cost $60 to $100. I'll order the Brownell tool if mine needs it.


IF you can find a friendly ffl, they CAN send handguns via USPS Priority Mail.

[Ghugly]

Groan............. Yeah shipping. I'll keep you posted. I'm going to do something about the forcing cones, that much is certain. I'm just not sure what, yet.

Scrounger. I really want to know what the forcing cone on your Bulldog is like. I'm convinced that mine sort of has one. However, it is less than the thickness of the rifling as the rifling continues right to the very edge.

The lock-up on these revolvers is reasonably tight. I haven't bothered to use a dial indicator on them. They seem to be clocked reasonably well. How do I know this? You may well ask. Because they spit lead fairly evenly out of both sides.[smilie=b:

[S.R.Custom]

...[the forcing cone] is less than the thickness of the rifling as the rifling continues right to the very edge. [smilie=b:

That is so wrong. The cone should be cut deep enough that you don't see rifling for about the first .100 - .150" of the barrel. On a .44, the edge to edge dimension across the forcing cone at the end of the barrel should be in the neighborhood of .445 - .450"

[Bass Ackward]

My 25-2 has the same type of forcing cone. Admittedly the throats are only slightly bigger than bore and the alignment is probably a little better, but that's the way it is. My guess is that the real difference is the throat size allowing JUST enough slop .........


Remember guys, the size of the barrel coming through the frame is limited by the frame size itself. The more steel that you remove from this point, the weaker you make the cone. Now my guess is the quality of the steel and the associated heat treatment is probably geared to the cone that is there. Removal of too much more is probably NOT a good idea.

So this isn't going to be a wide meplat or a semi-wadcutter gun. It can be worked around.

[racepres]

Just checked , and my old Bulldog measures abt. .439+, at the cone, as nearly as I am able to measure w/ the calipers! This ole gal has digested a jillion lead bullets. But they were Not all CB's as I am kinda a traitor, and use the swaged Speer in it almost exclusively. W/ my little load [6.0 gr] of Unique, it does all I need from it. HTH

[Ghugly]

Just an update on the Bulldog. I'm taking Bass Ackward's advice to heart after giving the forcing cone a good look. I don't think there's enough meat left in the cone to do much with it, so I've pretty much decided to work with what I have. I picked up a Lee TL430-240-SWC mold. It seems to be more of a truncated cone than semi-wadcutter so I had hopes that it would feed through my narrow cone rather than slamming into it like the 429421 does. It works! No more lead spitting, and I'm getting groups instead of patterns. I'm still working up loads for it, but so far it seems like 4.7 grains of Bullseye will make a dandy plinking/practice round. The mold is dropping .431 boolits, so I'm just tumble lubing with LA and using them unsized. It's quick, easy, and cheap.

[Lloyd Smale]

if you decide to send it to Dave. Hes a top notch pistolsmith and id would have to guess that if he didnt think it was a viable option on a bulldog he would have quickly told you so. Hes built me 4 guns now and his work is second to none.