Ballistic wound effects lesson for all (from a physician's perspective.)

[gunfan]

Here's a video I found on the S&W Forum; how handgun and rifle bullets kill (or just wound) within the human body. This is from a physician's perspective. This reflects reality more than anything else I have ever seen or heard.

Watch and learn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wXwPtP-KDNk

Scott

[randyrat]

6 out of 7 survive a handgun assault. That just made my P3AT a 4-5 yard gun instead of a 7 yard gun if I'm lucky.

[44man]

Great presentation. A whole lot reflects my experience with deer.

[Artful]

http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Fackler_Articles/effects_of_small_arms.pdf

http://www.firearmstactical.com/wound.htm

http://www.rkba.org/research/fackler/wrong.html

[44man]

Some have taken my reference to deer wrong.
It was the picture of a bullet going through a person too fast leaving no energy inside and the fast expanding bullet that stopped with no further damage.
It did not mean the same bullets work for humans and deer or other animals.
I just wanted to clear that up.
I do see the same with deer but of course bullets/boolits and calibers are different.

[ole 5 hole group]

It was the picture of a bullet going through a person too fast leaving no energy inside and the fast expanding bullet that stopped with no further damage.


Jim, what's this "energy" you speak of??

[45 2.1]

Some have taken my reference to deer wrong.
It was the picture of a bullet going through a person too fast leaving no energy inside and the fast expanding bullet that stopped with no further damage.
It did not mean the same bullets work for humans and deer or other animals.
I just wanted to clear that up.
I do see the same with deer but of course bullets/boolits and calibers are different.

I don't know what your doing Jim, but I don't experience that part in blue above. My boolits disrupt the insides right well (putting most of the energy where it belongs and not in the hillside beyond), then exit the animal. No fuss, no running all over the creation.... dead animal in its tracks to not more than 35 yards thereof dependent on caliber. Maybe its because I shoot them in the vital areas and don't bust the shoulder.... but who knows?

[TCTex]

Jim, are you talking about the clip where the self protection ammo-bullet, stopped a centimeter, literally, before it hit the artery? The doc said it saved the patents life.

Good observation on the different application of bullets and uses of bullets!

I thought it was interesting that the comment was made, "that is the reason cops shoot individuals multiple times, because they show no affect of being shot." or something like that...

Great video and thanks for posting!

[gunfan]

Jim, are you talking about the clip where the self protection ammo-bullet, stopped a centimeter, literally, before it hit the artery? The doc said it saved the patents life.

Good observation on the different application of bullets and uses of bullets!

I thought it was interesting that the comment was made, "that is the reason cops shoot individuals multiple times, because they show no affect of being shot." or something like that...

Great video and thanks for posting!

When I first viewed this, I thought to myself, "What an epiphany!" Then, "Everyone should see this."

About four years ago, a shooter and attorney that worked in conjunction with the Albuquerque NM Medical Examiner's office. He informed me of his experiences with both the .32 and .380 Auto cartridges and informed me that only FMJ or Hard Cast flat point bullets at maximum velocities should be used. I agreed.

This anesthesiolgist simply reinforced this hypothesis.

Scott

[44man]

Jim, are you talking about the clip where the self protection ammo-bullet, stopped a centimeter, literally, before it hit the artery? The doc said it saved the patents life.

Good observation on the different application of bullets and uses of bullets!

I thought it was interesting that the comment was made, "that is the reason cops shoot individuals multiple times, because they show no affect of being shot." or something like that...

Great video and thanks for posting!
Yes, that was the point although the caliber was weak, not a hunting gun that shows the difference between a SP carry gun and what we use for deer, etc.
The wrong gun for deer can do that too.
My gripe is to bring people shooting into deer hunting threads or a moose and buffalo into deer hunting. All is different and should not be compared.
A bullet NEEDS to place energy to disrupt as much tissue as it can for the proper distance.
I had a friend here with his young daughter to hunt deer. She had a .223 that bothered me. She made a perfect shot on a large doe and it ran off with zero blood trail. We searched but she felt so bad it was sad. Later I stumbled on the deer, between 100, maybe 150 yards away. When I opened it I found the bullet only went 6". It did not reach the heart.
She now uses a 30-30.
OH, I did save the meat for her, it was fine.

[gunfan]

Yes, that was the point although the caliber was weak, not a hunting gun that shows the difference between a SP carry gun and what we use for deer, etc.
The wrong gun for deer can do that too.
My gripe is to bring people shooting into deer hunting threads or a moose and buffalo into deer hunting. All is different and should not be compared.
A bullet NEEDS to place energy to disrupt as much tissue as it can for the proper distance.
I had a friend here with his young daughter to hunt deer. She had a .223 that bothered me. She made a perfect shot on a large doe and it ran off with zero blood trail. We searched but she felt so bad it was sad. Later I stumbled on the deer, between 100, maybe 150 yards away. When I opened it I found the bullet only went 6". It did not reach the heart.
She now uses a 30-30.
OH, I did save the meat for her, it was fine.

Yes, penetration is the key to an effective kill. Those that hunt larger game know this. While varmints are quickly dispatched by lighter, smaller rounds, heavier longer bullets aid in penetration, thus ensuring a cleaner (and quicker) dispatch of the quarry.

Scott

[44man]

A long, long time ago before there were any deer to hunt in Ohio we had great fun shooting jugs of water, making hollow points and all kinds of super destructive alloys. We were young and seeing a jug blow to the moon and catching a boolit in the second jug had us thinking what it would do to deer. Wonderful mushrooms.
We could not hunt deer with a revolver so I used a bow, a flintlock and now and then a shotgun slug. It was a long time until a revolver was able to be used and I learned the quick explosive bullet/boolit was wrong. So was a hard boolit shot too fast. It is still a learning process for me with every shot.
Just going to gallon jugs, you need to blow up at least 3 and not catch the boolit to be decent for deer.
Yet a pure round ball from a muzzle loader is so deadly it can't be defined or compared with a revolver.
Things can't be compared. Go back to the .44 cap and ball and they were more deadly to a person then the .357 can imagine.
I can't even compare one revolver caliber to another because each does different. Use the proper boolit for each.

[FergusonTO35]

I have perfect confidence in my own high velocity flat point lead slugs for defense or hunting. I think the move towards pricey hollowpoints that expand into sunflowers is a huge mistake for either purpose.

[waksupi]

A long, long time ago before there were any deer to hunt in Ohio we had great fun shooting jugs of water, making hollow points and all kinds of super destructive alloys. We were young and seeing a jug blow to the moon and catching a boolit in the second jug had us thinking what it would do to deer. Wonderful mushrooms.
We could not hunt deer with a revolver so I used a bow, a flintlock and now and then a shotgun slug. It was a long time until a revolver was able to be used and I learned the quick explosive bullet/boolit was wrong. So was a hard boolit shot too fast. It is still a learning process for me with every shot.
Just going to gallon jugs, you need to blow up at least 3 and not catch the boolit to be decent for deer.
Yet a pure round ball from a muzzle loader is so deadly it can't be defined or compared with a revolver.
Things can't be compared. Go back to the .44 cap and ball and they were more deadly to a person then the .357 can imagine.
I can't even compare one revolver caliber to another because each does different. Use the proper boolit for each.

I'm glad to see you say that about the effectiveness of the round ball. I've tried for years to convince newbies to the muzzleloader game they are much better than the other types of projectiles. But, they have been sucked in by marketing through the slick magazines to shoot something more expensive, and less effective.

[gunfan]

John Taylor was right, and this video goes to the root of the problem. All the whiz-bang hollow points in the slower cartridges (.380 and slower) are penalized by the "wonderfully expanding" hollow points, and that can get you killed!

Scott

[Lloyd Smale]

Dont know Jim. Id have to say what a bullet is going to do to a deer is very simular to what it will do to a man. both are thin skinned and if anything a man is a bit bigger. To me in either case penetration is my first priority. If it doesnt reach the vitals its not going to kill period! At least not that day. Second place comes wound cavity. Guys look at the smaller wound cavity that a non hollow point gives and write it off as second place to the hollow point but dont figure in that that wound channel is sometimes twice as long and has in fact disrupted more tissue. to me energy isnt even worth talking about. NO BULLET knocks down anything. If you doubt it hang a 100 lb bag of sand on a pole and shoot it with a 300 wby and see how little that bag moves. Ive allways thought that instead of measuring energy someone should come up with a way to measure hydrostatic shock. Shoot a sand bag with a 300 and it barely moves shoot a 5 gallon gas can full of water and it about explodes. this displacement is what makes a hp work a bit better inside an animal or man but still doesnt account for much without adequate penetration.

[44man]

Lloyd, you are 100% correct. It is why I hate ME figures because an armor piercing with tons of ME will just poke a hole. A real fast opening bullet at the same ME can explode on the surface.
I prefer to call it bullet work while inside any animal. It is 100% bullet construction or the alloy of cast.
I consider MV the same way, it does no good to look for as fast as a gun can shoot either. If too fast changes bullet work it can be worse.
Long ago in PA I helped a man drag a small buck out. He was using a 30-06 with 180 gr Silvertips. That is NOT a deer bullet! He shot and tracked in the snow, shot again and again as the deer took off and he found it again. There were six holes in the chest I could cover with my hand. Any one shot would kill the deer with TIME AND DISTANCE.
I would not shoot a deer with a 150 gr bullet from the .300 Weatherby either. I would not shoot a deer with a 110 gr bullet from the 30-06. Each has a perfect deer bullet and each has a perfect moose or elk bullet.
Revolvers work the same but on a different scale. If you use a hard boolit from a .45 Colt and it works perfect, don't expect driving it to 1800 fps from a .454 to do better.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

The surgeon divided the boolit cavity into two types; Direct injury-primary cavity and Indirect injury-secondary cavity. He showed in the video of ballistic gelatin and how the smaller faster 5.56 created the significant wound by fragmentation. But he also addressed what those in the military report when small people standing upright takes a 5.56 and keeps fighting. The surgeon’s illustration showed a boolit through the chest and the boolit passes through and exits the body before what I think the surgeon refers to as “jarring.” With the audio and his accent I can’t be sure of the word he uses. I use the words yaw or destabilize. He states that larger boolits do tissue damage but the small 5.56 needs room to fragment. Then he mentions the 5.56 through the bicep as an injury similar to an ice pick and another .223 entering at the knee and exiting the calf destroying the bone. The point is the small light boolit had the distance in the tissue it needed to do what it was designed to do. We had a local law enforcement officer shoot a guy in the guts with a .223, the guy basically hic upped, got a stitch on the front another stitch on the back went off to jail.

So I think 44man’s comment on his experience with deer is right on. It is prohibited by the game laws of the state I live in the hunt deer with the .223. The deer’s body is two narrow and for a broadside shot all you are doing is putting a .22 caliber hole through it. Just like the small combatants that standing take a 5.56 round. The boolit exits before it has travelled through enough tissue to begin it’s devastating secondary cavity phase.

[gunfan]

I love this discussion. It speaks well for the people that frequent this forum.

Scott

[Lloyd Smale]

thats the problem with all the expert opinions on the .223s effectiveness. IF IT tumbles or IF IT fragments it can cause wicked wounds and quick kills but in just as many case the ball bullets just pensil though and do less damage then a 9mm handgun. Now if they loaded nos partitions for the military theyd turn a questional killing gun into a wicked weapon.
The surgeon divided the boolit cavity into two types; Direct injury-primary cavity and Indirect injury-secondary cavity. He showed in the video of ballistic gelatin and how the smaller faster 5.56 created the significant wound by fragmentation. But he also addressed what those in the military report when small people standing upright takes a 5.56 and keeps fighting. The surgeon’s illustration showed a boolit through the chest and the boolit passes through and exits the body before what I think the surgeon refers to as “jarring.” With the audio and his accent I can’t be sure of the word he uses. I use the words yaw or destabilize. He states that larger boolits do tissue damage but the small 5.56 needs room to fragment. Then he mentions the 5.56 through the bicep as an injury similar to an ice pick and another .223 entering at the knee and exiting the calf destroying the bone. The point is the small light boolit had the distance in the tissue it needed to do what it was designed to do. We had a local law enforcement officer shoot a guy in the guts with a .223, the guy basically hic upped, got a stitch on the front another stitch on the back went off to jail.

So I think 44man’s comment on his experience with deer is right on. It is prohibited by the game laws of the state I live in the hunt deer with the .223. The deer’s body is two narrow and for a broadside shot all you are doing is putting a .22 caliber hole through it. Just like the small combatants that standing take a 5.56 round. The boolit exits before it has travelled through enough tissue to begin it’s devastating secondary cavity phase.

[44man]

It is tough to get around the Geneva convention rules of war. Super fast twists to make a bullet tumble or very large calibers are a few ways.
It used to be that a wounded soldier takes more resources to save the man. It is still how civilized countries and our great men in uniform operate.
But the Muslim extremists do not care about their own or innocents. Nothing works better then the .50 BMG. They think they will get virgins but don't know they are all copies of Hillary and Pelosi!
Sorry, I could not resist! :mrgreen:

[Lefty SRH]

I've seen this video and it makes you want to carry a 308 win instead Of your normal pistol caliber. Good informative video.

[Thundarstick]

I know I have taken a truck load of deer with a 243 and 85gr Gameking hp., but I know the limits of that bullet and cartrige! Don't shoot them on the point of a shoulder! Catch'em quartering away slightly and put it behind the shoulder, one hole and it looks like a gernade went off in the boiler room! On the same note, don't shoot a bullet with a tough construction at long distance where the velocity has dropped off to the point that it acts like a FMJ, either can loose you a deer! I have killed several with a 223 as well, but am always very picky and take a neck shot, never had one run. As far as hand guns go. Why put speed breaks on an already slow projectile? About the only time you get a real crumple up with a hand gun is if the spine is inpacted. Hand guns are realy quite anemic when compaired to almost any rifle.

[gunfan]

I know I have taken a truck load of deer with a 243 and 85gr Gameking hp., but I know the limits of that bullet and cartrige! Don't shoot them on the point of a shoulder! Catch'em quartering away slightly and put it behind the shoulder, one hole and it looks like a gernade went off in the boiler room! On the same note, don't shoot a bullet with a tough construction at long distance where the velocity has dropped off to the point that it acts like a FMJ, either can loose you a deer! I have killed several with a 223 as well, but am always very picky and take a neck shot, never had one run. As far as hand guns go. Why put speed breaks on an already slow projectile? About the only time you get a real crumple up with a hand gun is if the spine is inpacted. Hand guns are realy quite anemic when compaired to almost any rifle.

There you have it. I rest my case.

Scott

[Silver Jack Hammer]

"Hand guns are realy (sic) quite anemic when compaired (sic) to almost any rifle."

In law enforcement we have the .223 being defeated by a lot of intermediate barricades such as automobile glass and wallboard. The .223 barely meets the FBI standard of 12 to 15 inches of penetration in ballistic gelatin. These small, light, fast, frangible rounds fail us all the time. The fast light fast frangible boolits failed us in the .357 magnum days and they still fail us today. I’ve seen so called defense boolits deflected off of people’s arms, skulls and belt buckles. Stick in vehicle head rests, not to mention all accidents when TV’s and couches absorb opps rounds. A buddy of mine was pursuing a bad guy and talking in his microphone, the .223 came through the windshield, through his hand and came to rest in the microphone. I’m glad he is still with us today.

An old wild boar hunter said it best. He had a lot of scars, he said to me “Kid (I’m over 50) don’t use none of them exploding boolits.” He was talking about light fast expanding boolits that end up fragmenting before adequately penetrating.

In my water penetration tests, the .223 Federal Hi-Shok 55 gr SP fired from my 16” Colt penetrated 29 inches of water. My .270 130 gr Remington Core-Lokt at 3068 fps penetrated 15 inches.

The old Colt Single Action Army .45 with 454190 cast wheelweights at 875 fps penetrated 68 inches of water.

"Hand guns are realy (sic) quite anemic when compaired (sic) to almost any rifle."???

[gunfan]

This is why I prefer a .30" bore rifle to a .223"-.224" bore. Their bullets are generally heavier and penetrate more deeply. In a short range firefight the .223 might work fairly well, but the .308 penetrates more and will virtually ensure more "stopping power."

Scott

[gwpercle]

Maybe that Elmer Keith guy had a few of these questions figured out correctly. I just got an old Ideal mould # 358429 a 170 gr. SWC, going to cast a few and see how they do in the 357 magnum. Just maybe these new fangled hollow points aren't the be all and end all they want you to believe.
gary

[gunfan]

Maybe that Elmer Keith guy had a few of these questions figured out correctly. I just got an old Ideal mould # 358429 a 170 gr. SWC, going to cast a few and see how they do in the 357 magnum. Just maybe these new fangled hollow points aren't the be all and end all they want you to believe.
gary

The lesson was learned during the first world war. Both the Swiss and Finns came to the conclusion that:

a: The longer the bullet the more stable it was in flight, and

b: the deeper the penetration, the higher the odds that the object of the exercise would be stopped/killed.

Scott

[Leadmelter]

The Lyman #358429 is the bomb for the 357 mag. It is now a standard bullet. I use about 12grs+ of 2400. Check your manual.
I have an original Ideal mould. Great boolits and easy to cast.
Enjoy!!

Gerry

[Char-Gar]

Ed Harris talks of a friend of his who is a trauma surgeon and has treated many bullet wounds. The Dr. is also very gunny and carries a 38 Special with wadcutters goosed up to around 900 fps. He wanted a big meplat to cut and push stuff inside the body and yet enough pentration to reach to the vitals. After all the hoopla and heat generated over the years about bullets for defensive shooting, this simple approach makes very good sense to me.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

The FBI published years ago new criteria after their Platt and Maddox shootout and the introduction of the Black Talon ammo from Winchester from the US Army Wound Ballistics Laboratory. Aan add on that the research discovered that the wadcutter boolit fired from a snub nose .38 was a very effective boolit for the very reason your surgeon friend mentions. The large meplat and the straight wound path.
I recently went to Thunder Ranch where Clint Smith said the same thing and added that revolvers don’t fail like pocket semi autos have a tendency to do.

[44man]

Jim, what's this "energy" you speak of??
A bullet or boolit must crush and cut tissue without stopping short. It does take energy over just a hole.
If you took a sharp stick and slowly pushed it through a bear it would not be much different then a fast sharp stick shot through. It is why sharp flint heads were used.
Boolits do not have broad heads on them. Arrows have no energy to speak of, they cut everything they touch. My strongest bow has 80# of energy yet will go through almost any animal.
Boolits need more, it is small no matter the caliber. The difference between a .44 and .50 is a crazy thing to think of in actual world hole size. The arrow beats all of them because nothing is pushed out of the way from the cutting edges.
Energy applied without so much it moves tissue away from the boolit or no energy applied at all from a boolit that just zips through. Energy wrong is at initial contact dump or after full penetration. Dump is wrong, there is not enough to blow your nose. That energy is lost to heat and bullet/boolit breakup.
Yes we need energy with boolits. If they had none at all they would be a sharp stick. Too much with the wrong bullet is still a sharp stick.

[Rusty Goose]

Very interest video, thanks for posting.

So as far as defensive HG goes, the best of both worlds would be velocity and mass? There the argument for the S&W 500! It's just that I find that it is a bit cumbersome in a an ankle holster....

[44man]

Very interest video, thanks for posting.

So as far as defensive HG goes, the best of both worlds would be velocity and mass? There the argument for the S&W 500! It's just that I find that it is a bit cumbersome in a an ankle holster....
I place the .500 S&W in the VERY large game position. It is way too much for some hunting as I have found even the JRH is better suited for larger then deer.
I have seen the best from the .44 and .475 so far but the .475 needs real control or you will shoot over. It works on deer and will work with very large animals too.
All based on harder cast that I use so jacketed bullets can change it all. Alloy will change it all.
It just does not matter what handgun or rifle you use, it is always the bullet/boolit you choose for the animal.
I ran into the same problem shooting fox with a .22 magnum. Some brands of bullets had the fox run off, others dropped them. I was doing better on fox with a regular .22 then the magnum.
Yes, even the .22 mag can give you fits!

[kweidner]

Handguns are anemic? Obviously you have never shot a deer with a 44 or 41 magnum. Hammer of Thor might be a good description. I have shot them with xtp, gold dots, and now exclusively my Keith SWC. Never had to track one farther than 20yds. The point here is bullet selection. Pick the right bullet and put it in the right place. It frustrates me ppl think there is such thing as a do all bullet. A highly frangible shot in the shoulder will fail. A stout bullet shot in the neck will fail. Now shoot frangible in neck and head you have success. Shoot well constructed on high shoulder you have success. Why people get mad when a well built stout bullet fails to take down an animal that is marginally shot in the first place. Number one learn how to shoot. Number two know the limitations of your bullet and place it accordingly.

[Case Stuffer]

Somewhere around 30 to 40 years ago I read a rather detailed article about a test done with 45ACP bullets . The test was done at the request of a Sheriff by a active 45 shooter / reloader. The Sheriff was tired of his men not being able to effectively stop criminal fleeing in or hiding behind cars. That was enough to convience me to go to a 185 gr. SWC cast from a hard alloy. I conducted my own penetration test at a auto junk yard and was more than pleased with the results.

Years latter I purchased a Browning HP and cast 135gr. SWC for it and I still have some of those rounds which I loaded back in 1982. When I recently purchased a SA XD Sub compact (3" barrell) I tried some on 8 to 10" dia. live pine trees ,one round per area and they all went completely through. Only issues with using such for a carry load in my mind is what is behind the intended target (Bad Guy) and defending such a over penetrating bullets in a court of law.

Recently I read a post where SWC were explained to only be better than RN due to being easier to score.

I have owned a S&W Model 52 for many years and it only takes FWC seated flush. It only holds five in the mag. so is a fast reloading six. shooter but an extremely accurate one with a flawless 2-1/2 pound trigger pull. I seem to remember a police detective using a Mod. 52 to dispatch more than a few member of the crimal element years ago.

[gunfan]

Handguns are anemic? Obviously you have never shot a deer with a 44 or 41 magnum. Hammer of Thor might be a good description. I have shot them with xtp, gold dots, and now exclusively my Keith SWC. Never had to track one farther than 20yds. The point here is bullet selection. Pick the right bullet and put it in the right place. It frustrates me ppl think there is such thing as a do all bullet. A highly frangible shot in the shoulder will fail. A stout bullet shot in the neck will fail. Now shoot frangible in neck and head you have success. Shoot well constructed on high shoulder you have success. Why people get mad when a well built stout bullet fails to take down an animal that is marginally shot in the first place. Number one learn how to shoot. Number two know the limitations of your bullet and place it accordingly.

How often does one routinely carry either a .41 or .44 Remington Magnum for self-defense? Not many, I suspect. Let's face it, most defensive handguns will generally be chambered in lighter pieces. It may be less than fortunate, but such is life.

Scott

[Lloyd Smale]

Ill go this route. Is it that its the hammer of thor or is it just that deer are relitively easy to kill. Ive killed as many deer and other game with handguns of all calibers to know two things. First it doesnt take much to kill them if a bullet is placed well and secondly NO handgun puts deer down with the athourity something like an 06 does. I could shoot 3 deer with a 22 hornet behind the shoulder and dump them all and come to the conclusion that the hornet is the best deer slayer in the world but it isnt. Ive shot enough deer with the 44 mag and other handguns to have witnessed many times a well hit deer running off 2 or 3 hundred yards before dieing and that in my opinion doesnt make them the hammer of thor. Ive seen the same even with the 500 linebaugh. Keep in mind that even the 500linebaugh which leaves a 44 mag in its dust is still only about as powerful as a black powder load in a 4570 rifle. Hardly the hammer of thor when compared to centerfire mag rifles! 44 mags will defineately kill deer but anyone that has alot of experience with handgun hunting will tell you that like bow hunting its not a sport for casual participants. You need to place bullets with precision because your dealing with calibers that dont allow for any error. Nope, Sorry but there not the hammer of thor by any means.
Handguns are anemic? Obviously you have never shot a deer with a 44 or 41 magnum. Hammer of Thor might be a good description. I have shot them with xtp, gold dots, and now exclusively my Keith SWC. Never had to track one farther than 20yds. The point here is bullet selection. Pick the right bullet and put it in the right place. It frustrates me ppl think there is such thing as a do all bullet. A highly frangible shot in the shoulder will fail. A stout bullet shot in the neck will fail. Now shoot frangible in neck and head you have success. Shoot well constructed on high shoulder you have success. Why people get mad when a well built stout bullet fails to take down an animal that is marginally shot in the first place. Number one learn how to shoot. Number two know the limitations of your bullet and place it accordingly.

[45 2.1]

and secondly NO handgun puts deer down with the authority something like an 06 does.

Gee Lloyd... please don't tell the deer around my place that. They might think they're not supposed to die in place..... like most do.

[44man]

Gee Lloyd... please don't tell the deer around my place that. They might think they're not supposed to die in place..... like most do.
Me too! The revolver does work and I went to them 100% years ago. Accuracy first, they do kill as good as anything even a mag rifle.
I trust my RB muzzle loaders best of all and shot hundreds with them but hate to clean the things anymore. I lived in Ohio where you had to use a shotgun or a ML. The ML even does better then a slug. I hunted PA with my flintlocks and always dropped deer. One shot, one deer---period and the same with a revolver.
Everyone here uses a mag rifle and they lose way too many deer. The power is no replacement for shooting ability and four to six shots at a deer is common to hear.
Revolver hunters are like a good archer but range is extended to 100+ yards.
An archer is the best revolver hunter. I have many hundreds of bow kills so the revolver is so easy and sure does not lack killing power.

[Lloyd Smale]

well ill just smile. Ive shot enough to know that its the exception more then ther rule when a cast bullet shot deer with a revolver drops in its tracks and it about the rule with a good rifle. Never said a revolver wont kill. I know better then that. Ive killed more then a few animals a bunch bigger then a deer with them. But they dont put game down with authority like a rifle. Ive seen animals shot with the 500 linebaugh that kept on eating till they dropped over dead. As a matter of fact i dont recall ever a deer dropping in its tracks with a handgun unless either shoulder shot or with a hit to the spine or brain.

[44man]

Same with a rifle, you need to disrupt the CNS.
I helped find deer shot with 7mm and .300 mags, some went a mile. samo, samo, a bad hit is a bad hit.
When April and May comes for shroom hunting, it is nothing to find 10 or more lost deer in the small area I walk. Last year I found 12 on one property just walking a straight line through.
The mindset is a cannon should drop a deer and if one does not fall, it is assumed it was a miss so the jerk does not get up to look.

[PWS]

Doc in the video points out that 6 out of 7 patients shot with a handgun survive. One would assume that is with modern medical care - something game obviously does not have. He also states that the only tissue absolutely and immediately necessary to sustain life is the brain stem so the most common cause of death is hemmoraging and the most common cause is by puncturing a blood vessel. Later in the vid, he shows a very interesting diagram highlighting the vital organs and vessels and there's a lot of tissue surrounding those narrow areas.


There's really no surprise that many critters get hit and run off to die of BLEEDING. My take is that ALL hunters should think like bowhunters. Put the projectile where it will garuntee bleeding, don't expect a DRT, and be ready and capable of following a blood trail.

[45 2.1]

Until you experience a dramatic DRT..... you won't believe its possible. There are two non CNS/spine areas in the vitals that allow DRT with hollow points.

[S. Galbraith]

There seems to be a concensus on the fact that handguns punch holes, and rifles tear **** up. Just like the work of Dr. Fackler and the IWBA, a projectile doesn't seem to cause any significate radial effects until it approaches the velocity levels of an M1 Carbine which is around 2000fps. Of course, the bullet needs a good wounding mechanism such as expansion or fragmentation to cause any signification tissue destruction with good temporary cavity stretch.

All that being said, handguns poke holes. Good shot placement is the only true force multiplier with a handgun.......while poking slightly larger holes is only an inconsequential increment. The best way to DRT someone is to shoot the right spot, and if you fail to do that with the first shot, then the next best option is to quickly follow up with additional shots until you do hit the right spot.

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive seen more then my share of deer lung shot with rifles drop in there tracks. Reason probably is that it about turns those lungs to jello and the blood loss shuts the nervous system down about as fast as a hit to the central nervous system. that and many times pieces of the bullet find the central nervous system. Ill stand behind my statement that very few deer hit with handguns in the lungs go down in there tracks if any. this is kind of a silly argument in that i totaly agree with the fact that a handgun kills fairly quickly. But the original post is more about shutting down a man intent on killing you and id take a rifle ANY DAY over any handgun to do that. Deer dont shoot back!!!!
Same with a rifle, you need to disrupt the CNS.
I helped find deer shot with 7mm and .300 mags, some went a mile. samo, samo, a bad hit is a bad hit.
When April and May comes for shroom hunting, it is nothing to find 10 or more lost deer in the small area I walk. Last year I found 12 on one property just walking a straight line through.
The mindset is a cannon should drop a deer and if one does not fall, it is assumed it was a miss so the jerk does not get up to look.

[44man]

You must understand that most of us here SHOOT and shoot more in a day then the average hunter shoots in 5 years. Except opening day when a bolt gun sounds like a machine gun! :roll: I have never figured out how they get the speed out of them since the gun stands in a corner all year.
But I will never say a revolver is weak and yes I had double lung hit deer pitch on the ground, even the .44 really messes up the insides. I have gone wrong with a boolit and destroyed way too much meat with bloodshot from head to butt.
But there is a difference between man and animals, less mass and if just one lung is damaged with the bleeding stopped, a man can survive. A man was shot with a 12 ga slug sitting in his car, shot by a friend unloading the gun wrong, he survived.
I have never shot a person and never will unless there is a break in and I would grab my .410 shotgun over my big bore revolvers. No matter what they do to deer I would not put faith in them for people and they are far, far too dangerous AFTER going through a BG.
A revolver is not anemic, here is a deer heart. Then a deer shot with my .44 using a hard boolt.

[44man]

Anyway, you see my concern about bringing self protection and people shooting into hunting.
For one I never want to shoot a person except under dire conditions or at war that I am too old for anyway. I have a concern about bringing buffalo into deer hunting too.
It is one size does not fit.
A revolver can do as much damage to deer as a .300 rifle. They have amazed me for years and years. If they did not work I would not hunt with them.

[35remington]

I'll have to strongly second the notion that the vast majority of deer shot, even with rifles, do not drop in their tracks. While I consider myself a typical deer hunter, I would like to think I'm a better than typical shot.

No "precisely placed hits" need apply, because not everyone hits deer precisely, every time they shoot. Rests in the field are not dead steady, nor is one's own aiming error. What experienced deer hunters do is hit them properly, which is to say through the large part of the lungs or heart, traversing those organs for some length, which is correct placement. If a hit goes through bone while traversing those organs, so much the better, but even a broken shoulder won't stop an animal from moving a considerable distance if no blood loss is present to bring them to the ground.

Those that say deer "drop in their tracks" more often than not when shot under typical hunting conditions haven't done much, if any, great amount of deer hunting. If no major bones are broken DRT is not necessarily in the cards. No "what ifs" in terms of placement need apply, because I'm talking about the vast majority of hits that are correct in terms of relation to a self defense scenario, wherein a hit to the upper body through lungs or heart that traverses their large diameter is also considered correct.

If cartridges that dwarf your typical carry pistol in terms of energy and destruction won't stop deer DRT most of the time, and they won't for most of the people using them that can shoot correctly (please spare me the talk of how you have bang flops every time because this is not to be counted on) then we need to temper our expectations of carry pistol's stopping power.

Expect that the target won't stop. Keep shooting until they do or you run out of cartridges. For those relatively few deer I've shot with a pistol approximating a 357 to warmly loaded 45 Auto Rim cartridge, the reaction to a double lung hit was for them to take off like a racehorse and go around 80 to 90 yards. The single deer I double lunged with a 44 revolver with a 240 XTP at a little over 1350 fps did the very same thing. The death run from a reasonably powerful high velocity rifle has been somewhat shorter than this in most cases, but they still will go 30 to 50 yards.

Ain't no "hammer of Thor" with anything, really. If these had been an opponent with evil intent they would have had ample time to shoot several times in my direction before expiring.

[45 2.1]

A revolver can do as much damage to deer as a .300 rifle. They have amazed me for years and years. If they did not work I would not hunt with them.

Jim, we do agree on this. Your right about accuracy also. Some folks here need to work on their shooting skills. If you can't hit a fist sized object in practice at 60 to 100 yards, then you really need to limit yourself to short range until you can.

[44man]

A few great posts with explanations so true.
I have to say the only gun I have ever used to take more deer to the ground without a wiggle is always my .54 ML with a round ball. 99.9% of the time when the smoke clears, the deer is DRT. I have seen deer drop even before smoke made it hard to see.
I killed hundreds with .45 flintlocks and .50 calibers and many with a .45 cap and ball. Never lost a single deer. Will a .300 Weatherby kill better or is it just range extension?

[ole 5 hole group]

35remington and I have about the same experiences, which I have always stated in discussions such as this. On non-CNS strikes, one can expect a deer or bear to take off at warp speed - why some go several hundred yards while others go 20 to 50 yards I don't know - but I do like it more when they pile up sooner.

DRT is fairly rare, but for those who have only shot one deer and experienced a DRT, well, I guess that's 100% of the time. I don't have the harvest numbers some have on this site, but I have my share and IMO, the rifle is a far superior killer than any handgun, shooting typical handgun calibers. Now, shooting speed goats might be a different story, as they go down pretty quick in my limited experience.

[35remington]

Funny you should mention that, 44. I've shot two deer with roundballs in .54. Both were a long way from DRT with double lung hits. Around 50 to 60 yards then keeled over. Typical of what I've experienced with most hits with most guns.

There are a relative few that claim DRT. Most hunters don't have this experience. I am no more than typical, I think. I am most assuredly not exceptional.

[Lloyd Smale]

well i consider myself a fair pistol shot and have the trophys to prove it and have killed as many deer with a handgun as anyone here and probably 10 times more deer with a rifle then all but a very select few here so I guess that unless something magical just happens to me when i shooting them that ill continue to believe just what my own to eyes have shown me. I know Jim has shot a bunch of deer with handguns and rifles using cast bullets too. I dont know how many deer hes shot with mag centerfire rifles though to give a real world opinion on that part of this. Bottom line is my opinons come from watching actual deer die and not just 3 or 4. You can talk till your blue in the face about energy and ballistics and can quote things wrote up by scientist shooting dead animal carcusses ect. but ive seen it, at least on whitetail deer with my own two eyes and after shooting WELL over 500 deer in my life and the honest total is probably closer to twice that. I think i have a pretty good grasp on what calibers and bullet designs and bullet placement produce differnt results on deer. As to the ability to place a bullet properly with a rifle or handgun in real field conditions on real live animals ill put my ability up against about anyones. Granted the orignal post refered more toward shooting 2 legged game and theres many that study that and im surely no expert on it but as to deer i think my opinions are spot on.
Jim, we do agree on this. Your right about accuracy also. Some folks here need to work on their shooting skills. If you can't hit a fist sized object in practice at 60 to 100 yards, then you really need to limit yourself to short range until you can.

[44man]

Funny you should mention that, 44. I've shot two deer with roundballs in .54. Both were a long way from DRT with double lung hits. Around 50 to 60 yards then keeled over. Typical of what I've experienced with most hits with most guns.

There are a relative few that claim DRT. Most hunters don't have this experience. I am no more than typical, I think. I am most assuredly not exceptional.
I don't know. I built my own Hawken and for some reason Pyrodex RS is best in it. I use 100 gr for all hunting but for 200 meter target I go to 120 gr.
The only deer that ran 30 or 40 yards was hit at over 100 yards with a massive blood trail.
All the rest went down instantly. 20 to 50 yards never left one standing.
The only revolver I shoot that puts most deer DRT is the .475. This gun is crazy and I will guess 95% drop with the rest smashing into trees. It is funny to see a deer run headlong into a tree. I have never, ever had to track a deer with the gun. Sit and watch them bounce back and forth into trees and brush piles for a short time.
Lloyd is right, paper figures just plain suck. I am also close to 500 deer kills. Lost track.
I shot six last season with revolvers, two each with three calibers and I can define the differences and though all killed, there are small changes in how each worked so those are the areas I work with. All is based on NEVER having a deer ever get lost. Only two things count, drop the deer or have a blood trail.

[Lloyd Smale]

thats one way that cast bullets really shine. You usually have a blood trail a 5 year old girl could follow.

[gunfan]

When it comes to shooting at people, I am fond of using either smaller caliber cartridges with precise placement, or larger, faster (and heavier) bullets that penetrate more deeply.

If I can place a number of .32 ACP/.32 Longs/.32 H&R Magnum bullets in the face/eye socket area, it generally "takes a lot of fight" out of someone. Controllability is a substantial issue. I do carry a 9mm Kel-Tec as a concealed piece and can place the shots reasonably well. For a full-sized "belt gun" a 10mm Auto/.41 Remington Magnum or even a .357 S&W Magnum suit me quite well.

The city in which I live is not noted for it's "civility."

Scott

[44man]

I have been lucky. When a kid, there were no drugs or violence. A few tough guys in school you were allowed to deal with.
As I moved I was never in a bad neighborhood but everyone in the area knew I was a gun nut and hunter. Now I have my range and shoot a lot so even though there have been break ins here and there, nobody dares come here even though guns are locked in a safe and I have no self defense stuff except shotguns. No fancy stuff, hunting guns.
Your reputation means a lot and I think concealed carry is crazy. You really need a gun on your hip wherever you go. If a perp can't see a gun it just makes for more confrontations.

[M-Tecs]

I think concealed carry is crazy. You really need a gun on your hip wherever you go. If a perp can't see a gun it just makes for more confrontations.

I don't agree at all. The fear of not knowing who might be carrying is a very real deterrent. Look back at why the crash and dash became so popular in Florida after concealed carry was instituted. At the time the rental cars had rental plates. The bad guys were afraid of getting shot so they targeted rental cars coming out of the airports since they knew they would not be carrying.

When only a few are open carrying the bad guys will wait until the open carriers are no longer in the area the same as the do for cops.

However the biggest problem with open carry is you need eyes in the back of your head. If the bad guys need a gun and you are open carrying how long do you think it will be before you get a knife in the back or your head smashed in specifically to get you open carry piece. This really isn't an issue in rural areas but in bigger cities it is a very real concern.

[Larry Gibson]

I have shot a lot of deer over the years with handguns and rifles, with jacketed and cast bullets under a lot of varying circumstance. I have to agree with 35Remington, and Lloyd to a degree, that DRT is not guarenteed with either. Deer are prey by nature and when injured their instinct is to flee. The damage inflicted to them determines how far they are able to flee. I long ago gave up on the "behind the shoulder" shot as it results in only a single or a double lung wound and most often the deer will go a considerable distance before dropping or laying down to die. I prefer a heart/ung shot to cause more major vein/artery damage and to break down one or both front shoulders. This invarably reduces, to a great degree, the distance the deer will then travel. I do not expect a DRT and am always ready for follow up shots if I can take them. I also, as does 45 2.1, favor a softer cast HP, whether from handgun or rifle, to increase the woud and trama effect. That also shortens the distance the deer will travel and frankly, does increase the odds of a DRT.

A predator on the other hand has the instinct of flight or fight when injured. DG are well known for both and will do either to the max until dead.

People, even though predators, on the other hand are capable of "thought". That either negates the "fight" instinct when shot because they "thinK' they are going to die, know they are seriously injured and assume they are about to be killed. Sometimes they will also fight to the max; we have heroes and we have criminals who do such. A comparison of DRT on people with a potential DRT on deer does not correlate because of the different instincts and the ability of the human to "think". Yes, I have shot people and have seen many more shot. No, I am not ashamed, have regrets or "sorry" for it either......I was a soldier. I do have one regret though that has nothing to do with this thread but perhaps is germaine to the thread and my post; with regards to PAVN and NVA my regret is I did not kill enough of them......that's the way it is and no regret about it........

Larry Gibson

[gunfan]

People, even though predators, on the other hand are capable of "thought". That either negates the "fight" instinct when shot because they "thinK' they are going to die, know they are seriously injured and assume they are about to be killed. Sometimes they will also fight to the max; we have heroes and we have criminals who do such. A comparison of DRT on people with a potential DRT on deer does not correlate because of the different instincts and the ability of the human to "think". Yes, I have shot people and have seen many more shot. No, I am not ashamed, have regrets or "sorry" for it either......I was a soldier. I do have one regret though that has nothing to do with this thread but perhaps is germaine to the thread and my post; with regards to PAVN and NVA my regret is I did not kill enough of them......that's the way it is and no regret about it........

Larry Gibson

That's truly the way it is, isn't it? You are "spot on" Larry. Don't forget it.

Scott

[Lloyd Smale]

I too dont believe in open carry for defense. For one if a bad guy knows you have a gun and is intent on doing something bad your the first hes going to take out and secondly if theres people running around with exposed guns its not beyond possible that a bad guy could just snatch one of those guns to start the deal. Larry, youve been three and done that so let me ask you this? I was in the service at the end of that war when the fighting was about over so never saw combat. I did though train with a couple elite branches of the military. I met alot who were in some pretty harry places. I doubt if one of them under ANY circumstance would have chosen a 1911 over something like a 308 or even a 223 if being faced down by an enemy soldier.

Yes you can argue that they used ball ammo in those 1911s and its differnt then cast but consider too that they used ball ammo in there rifles not expanding. I never met a soldier that had been in close quarter combat that was dumb enough to claim that he left his rifle behind because his handgun was just as effective. Handguns are used as a last ditch efford for most military personal and for the most part back then carried by guys who never saw combat. Ive heard it said by more then one guy that if push came to shove hed rather have a couple more rifle mags then a handgun. Why? because in just to many cases men shot with handguns tended to keep shooting back.

Like you said too a man, at least a sane man, is easier to stop then a wild animal in most cases. Guys here are cast bullet guys and most of those bullets are shot from handguns so i know where there predudices lie. I too for almost 20 years hunted with handguns. Usually loaded with cast bullets. Like i said ive killed enough big and small animals with them to know there bad and good points. Ive also killed alot of animals with rifles. Ive got a pretty good grasp on there effectiveness too. I know which one knocks the cork out of deer a bit better then the other. Now take your soldier and give him something with the power of an 06 and give him it loaded with a 150 grain soft point expanding bullet and let him go out into battle with it and a handgun with a non expanding bullet and have him come back and tell you which one killed with more athority. Its so lopsided its almost a non argument.

Ill continue to hunt with cast bullets. Like i said i know they will kill. Id be an idiot to say otherwize as ive proved it myself on to many occasions but a deer doesnt shoot back. If they did you can bet your *** id be leaving the 6 gun back home and using a 300 mag!! You can show me all the pictures in the world of messed up boilerooms of deer. Heck ive seen myself what even a 22hornet will do to the lungs of a deer. Thing is no matter what a 22 hornet is a poor deer STOPPER. Ive just seen to many deer kills to ever be convinced that even a 44 mag using a cast bullet is even in the same room as a 06 when it comes to killing dead on the spot. 44man even you stated you use a shotgun for home protection and id bet the main reason is that you want anyone in your home dead right now! You dont want them living for even 3 seconds to possibly get another shot off.

[warboar_21]

I have to say this. Deer, while they are of thin skin and somewhat close to the same weight as the average human that that is where the similarity stops. They are wild animals and their fight/flight is much more than humans. It is true that all animals will die the same by either blood loss or CNS hits. People on the other hand have not had to live like wild animals for well over a hundred years. We are softer physically and mentally than any wild animal.

With all this said a handgun is the most commonly used self defense weapon only for the fact that they are easily concealed on a person. They are a compromise but certainly better than nothing. Shot placement is key to surviving an attack. For those who think they will just shoot someone in the head better hope that they are able to press the barrel of the gun to the persons head as that is about the only chance they will have to hit the head. They have never had to fire a weapon in a high stress situation. Shooting center mass or upper torso should really be what one is targeting.
While I was in the Army I qualified expert on every weapon I had. When going through cqb training and SRT training we had to fire under stress. Instructors yelling, flash bang grenades, having to had run up several flights of stairs etc, etc,. When you would engage a target even at close distances it was surprising to see how poorly that you shot. How many hits were marginal and how many misses you had.
Ensuring you have proper ammo that will reach major blood vessels, organs, or CNS is also important.
The single most important aspect of SD is situational awareness. If you are aware of what is going on around you then most likely you will be able to avoid any trouble.

[44man]

I have shot a lot of deer over the years with handguns and rifles, with jacketed and cast bullets under a lot of varying circumstance. I have to agree with 35Remington, and Lloyd to a degree, that DRT is not guarenteed with either. Deer are prey by nature and when injured their instinct is to flee. The damage inflicted to them determines how far they are able to flee. I long ago gave up on the "behind the shoulder" shot as it results in only a single or a double lung wound and most often the deer will go a considerable distance before dropping or laying down to die. I prefer a heart/ung shot to cause more major vein/artery damage and to break down one or both front shoulders. This invarably reduces, to a great degree, the distance the deer will then travel. I do not expect a DRT and am always ready for follow up shots if I can take them. I also, as does 45 2.1, favor a softer cast HP, whether from handgun or rifle, to increase the woud and trama effect. That also shortens the distance the deer will travel and frankly, does increase the odds of a DRT.

A predator on the other hand has the instinct of flight or fight when injured. DG are well known for both and will do either to the max until dead.

People, even though predators, on the other hand are capable of "thought". That either negates the "fight" instinct when shot because they "thinK' they are going to die, know they are seriously injured and assume they are about to be killed. Sometimes they will also fight to the max; we have heroes and we have criminals who do such. A comparison of DRT on people with a potential DRT on deer does not correlate because of the different instincts and the ability of the human to "think". Yes, I have shot people and have seen many more shot. No, I am not ashamed, have regrets or "sorry" for it either......I was a soldier. I do have one regret though that has nothing to do with this thread but perhaps is germaine to the thread and my post; with regards to PAVN and NVA my regret is I did not kill enough of them......that's the way it is and no regret about it........

Larry Gibson
There you have it, the best explanation and how I feel.
One jerk will drop with a .25 hit and another will keep coming after 14 nines in him. Nut cases, extreme anger or drugs need more then just shot. A sane person will run from a BB gun.
I too have shot many deer that kept eating apples, most with bows. Many did not run from a revolver hit and the rest of the deer with it did not leave either. You just don't know. Gun fire alone does not scare deer but a boolit hitting close or the snap of a bullet breaking the sound barrier will. A miss with an arrow will make a deer jump away from the hit in the ground or from a high frequency string or bow noise. High frequency sounds are the worst.
We have a lot of deer here and I have had them walk past my shooting bench while I shot. I had a herd bedded at my 200 yard bench while I shot at 100 yards and they did not get up until I walked to the bench.
I once dropped a big doe with a 12 ga slug and the rest of the herd bedded after seeing my deer drop.
Take one shot around people and they all scatter or try to hide.
It comes down to a "thinking" condition but a drugged up fool can't do it. It is why a drunk can fall without getting hurt.

[44MAG#1]

Senario:
Here I am minding my own business when a drugged crazed man weighing 325 pounds runs up and shoves me onto my back.
He is wanting my billfold and the money in it. He largely looms over me getting ready to stomp me in to a bloody gelatinous mess.
But, as I hit the ground I recover enough of my limited senses and draw my compact 45 ACP as he lifts his leg to apply his large numer 13 to my mid-section and I fire a projectile toward him and his large belly.
What should my gun be loaded with that would ensure a vital chest area hit after penetrating his large paunch with enough clobber to drop him hopefully beside me. Or cause him enough miseries that he would forget about my billfold that has a 5 dollar bill in it.
Now, if a 150 pound guy that is drug crazed runs up with a knife and says "give me your billfold", that still has 5 dollars in it, or I'll carve you into stir fry pieces of meat . I give it to him and then he lunges toward me, I backpeddle, draw my same compact 45 ACP and shoot him in the center of the chest. What kind of projectile should my compact be loaded with then?
Now what do I suppose to carry in my gun all the time? A load based on the 325 pound guy and hope I never am attacked by the 150 pound guy or the load for the 150 pound guy and hope I am never attacked by the 325 pound guy or should I just carry a Cold Steel extra large Espada and hope that cops don't see the print of a 71/2 inch blade folding knife?

[Larry Gibson]

44Mag#1

Bullets (cartridges) is what you should have loaded in your 45 ACP. The problem with your sceanrios is that you are asking a question based on shooting just 1 shot.....why? I would shoot 7, 8, 10 or 14 shots (depending on which 45 ACP I had) or until the bad guy goes down or stops the aggression. Why is it we must think we have to rely on 1 shot in a self defense scenario? BTW, I wouldn't be "firing toward him" either. I would stick the muzzle into his crotch and keep pulling the trigger. Any idea what damage the muzzle blast does at close range?

You can "what if" yourself into insanity.......I guarentee you a shot from a 45 ACP, regardless of bullet type, or preferable 2-3 shots, on the fat guy up into the groin area like you describe will not have to penetrate the paunch to the heart to stop him. Ever been kicked in the kahone's(SP)? If you shoot him there and the pain doesn't stop him he will be more concerned about his "manhood" being injured than further stomping you. As for the skinny dude; 2 -3 shots center of the chest with a hard cast SWC, RN, TC, JHP or FMJ are proven to end the antisocial behavior.

I carry JHPs loaded to 1000+ fps in my 45 ACPs along with 1 or 2 spare mags and quit worrying about losing a fight a long time ago. I started planning on how to avoid the fight (it's called situational awareness and tactics) and if unavoidable to shoot to live. Many times we over think or "game" these scenarios too much.........

Larry Gibson

[44man]

Did anyone see the Mythbuster show where a guy with a knife can reach a concealed carry guy first and kill him?
A BG with a gun has it out and pointing at you while yours is inside, out of sight and reach.
Would he come near you if you carried like the police, open carry?
Look at school kids in Israel with a full auto slung on the shoulder, would you mess with them?
A gun is a deterrent to crime. Visible is a deterrent.
Imagine a crazed nut with a machete in a school? Look at Africa with unarmed people chopped up. There is nothing more scarey then a huge machete or a sword to an unarmed person. A staff can beat you senseless and kill in a second. A stone will kill and so will a butter knife.
Protection is visible.
I so love our Jewish friends that Obama hates and their common sense ideas to protect lives as so important. Gods children as are we all are to protect ourselves and each other from evil.
Today, the government is evil.
Obama wants radical Islam or progressive liberals to take over our country. Don't be fooled with the strikes against radicals, he knows it creates more hatred.
He wants us all disarmed first so we can't resist.
Shoot a criminal and you might get life in prison. Liberals glorify creeps and killers. They make an excuse for behavior when a rope is the answer.
Kill the creep first and either let 12 on the jury save you or bury the creep without calling the police. I do not trust the 12 so if anyone broke into my home, I would take the body hundreds of miles to dump. It will cost all of your savings, your home and family to defend yourself and the creeps family will also sue you for killing the poor kid.
Shoot a creep on the street, pick up brass and get OUT OF THERE. Use a revolver. You can be in more trouble then a crack head shooting a child.
Many are OK after shooting a BG but 50% are in trouble, losing jobs and going to court.
Even LEO's are in trouble after a shooting. We lost a great Leo when he beat a resistant creep. Extreme danger to the police only taken in control with force but it cost a mans job.
I am sick of it to the extreme. Our police should not be so restricted and neither should we as protective of our families.

[44MAG#1]

"Bullets (cartridges) is what you should have loaded in your 45 ACP."
A cartride launches a bullet to do the work. Without the bullet one would just have a pop from the primer and a dusting of powder.
"The problem with your sceanrios is that you are asking a question based on shooting just 1 shot.....why? I would shoot 7, 8, 10 or 14 shots (depending on which 45 ACP I had) or until the bad guy goes down or stops the aggression.Why is it we must think we have to rely on 1 shot in a self defense scenario?"
Because one shot maybe all you have time to pull off.
"BTW, I wouldn't be "firing toward him" either. I would stick the muzzle into his crotch and keep pulling the trigger. Any idea what damage the muzzle blast does at close range?
I am sure I wouldn't be thinking as clear as someone with a cool head such as yourself when face with a situation as i described. I can't even think clearly when faced with a nice menu at a nice restuarant. would it render him sterile?
"You can "what if" yourself into insanity.......I guarentee you a shot from a 45 ACP, regardless of bullet type, or preferable 2-3 shots, on the fat guy up into the groin area like you describe will not have to penetrate the paunch to the heart to stop him."
Again i am sure you are correct but I stated one shot before the foot of pile driving proportions rendered me inoperational
" As for the skinny dude; 2 -3 shots center of the chest with a hard cast SWC, RN, TC, JHP or FMJ are proven to end the antisocial behavior."
Again i wasn't thinking clearly and though maybe i would only have one shot rather than trying to lay down a line of fire.
"I carry JHPs loaded to 1000+ fps in my 45 ACPs along with 1 or 2 spare mags and quit worrying about losing a fight a long time ago."
Good. I applaude you for having such confidence and ability with your gun/firearm.
" I started planning on how to avoid the fight (it's called situational awareness and tactics) and if unavoidable to shoot to live. Many times we over think or "game" these scenarios too much........."
I generally don't ry to run headlong into a hazardous situations myself but it is a remore possibility that one may happen into one unaware. Again i applaude you on your awareness and tactical prowess
"Many times we over think or "game" these scenarios too much........."
Well I see now the mistake I made by over thinking. I am glad you pointed out the situational awareness and tactical program
I appreciate the help.

[ole 5 hole group]

Here's my take on it 44Mag#1, that 45ACP with hunting rounds will do a fine job. To me a commercial hunting round is a 255 grain cast lumbering along at 950fps - they can be purchased from BuffaloBore. You can also load the 255 or 265 grain cast to that velocity or better as well. Another fine hunting round is a Speer 230 grain Gold Dot or a Remington 230 grain Golden Saber, which are bonded bullets flying at 850fps. You can also reload that Gold Dot bullet to factory specs or up to 1,000fps - your choice.

Be careful about purchasing the Golden Saber, as there is a brass and bonded version - the brass is labeled BJHP and fools a lot of folks - you need to go by manufacturer number or else it must say bonded on the box flap - you also need to know that you cannot purchase the bonded golden saber as a component, as Remington hasn't released any for sale as of this date anyway, just the brass version is available as a component. There are other bonded commerical loads out there by Federal & Winchester that are just as good but they haven't released their bonded bullet as a component either, so you're stuck with the Gold Dot for reloading. I load the Gold Dot and like it.

I really don't think you will encounter many people on the street who possess real hatred for you that will be the driving force for them to get at ya. There's very few with a mindset like that, so putting one or more rounds into them will reduce the threat to you to almost zero. Any cast or bonded jacketed bullet that your handgun shoots well will be what you might want to carry.

I doubt I'll be going to war with any gang, so 8 rounds in my 1911 is all I carry but if one wants to carry more - that's never a bad choice. Having night sights is also a plus in a dark environment, but in the situation you described, you just need to see the front sight and keep that 1911 in battery and you'll be able to walk away from that one.

[44man]

I compare it to a jerk with a 2" .500 S&W and a bear at full charge at 10'. He misses and the gun is next to his ear. He thinks power but recoil kills him. So many want great power not controlled and of no use.
Others want many, many useless shots, thinking a large mag works. You just NEED 30 shots.
Many think they are quick draw artists when 1 in a million can do it. GET REAL. If you think you can draw and kill before a creep can stab you with a knife you are a nut case.
Self protection is mostly tough talk and a feel good thing with a concealed gun. A puff chest thing.
I agree that ALL of us should be armed and a school should be full of guns along with every other store and airport, even on planes. Every person that is of sound mind should have a gun and every teacher of a sound mind should be armed and so should every student.
How to weed out nuts is the problem and liberals will protect nuts and even let them out of prison. Liberals WANT dead innocents to promote what they believe is best for all. More death makes them happy.
I want a gun in every single persons hand, man, woman, black, Yellow or pink as long as he is not a criminal.

[44MAG#1]

"If you think you can draw and kill before a creep can stab you with a knife you are a nut case."
Than you for the kind compliment. I have long wondered what you though of me before now. My idea would be to stop the knife weilding loon before he had a chance to cut more than one slab of fat off me and to do him more harm to him than he did to me. I never though I was Hugh O'Brian or James Arness while carrying my micro compact Springfield.
"So many want great power not controlled and of no use."
I want enough power not great power. Now if I could harness great power with the recoil and controlability of my Springfield I would want it so if I missed I could scorch him with the flame that the gun threw. That may be enough to cause the attacker to forget about the attackee from being blinded by the blast like the Fat Man produced
"Many think they are quick draw artists when 1 in a million can do it. GET REAL."
Again you know my true colors alright. I am a slow draw expert but all I have to do is be a little faster than the other guy especially when he see a silly looking old, fat, bald headed man that looks harmless and about half ignorant and looking a little dazed and finds out he isn't ingnorant or dazed just old, fat and bald but carries a 45 ACP with 230 gr Speer Gold Dot Hollow Points for the Short Barreled guns backed by 7.2 gr power Pistol. And maybe a big knife too.

[Larry Gibson]

44MAG#1

Seems pretty argumentative since several of us are trying to help you. If you knew what would happen in advance to figure out how one shot will save you then why be there in the 1st place? Point is we don't know what will happen. You don't know that after the one shot in the groin the BG is still going to stomp you. Experience says he won't, especially with the addition of muzzle blast into the wound. We pays our money and takes our chances. No you won't have exactly the right ammo in the gun for both scenarios. Odds are you won't for any incident, you will have to use what you have. Woulda, shoulds, coulda isn't going to change that.....mind set will.

I wasn't criticising your choice of words when I said you should have bullets or cartridges in your gun. You will have what you have and will have to make do with it at the time. That's where situational awareness, mind set, tactics or whatever you want to call it comes in. Obviously you lack the confidence in yourself to act well under such circumstances. You've said so several times. I would suggest you work/train on that aspect instead of fretting over having exactly the right ammunition for the unknown encounter. It is what you do in whatever situation you find yourself in that will matter most, not what kind of bullets you happen to have in your 45 ACP at the time.

Larry Gibson

[44MAG#1]

"Seems pretty argumentative since several of us are trying to help you"
Not argumentative at all. You thought i was asking for help. My post #65 was mostly just in jest. I am 60 years old. Believe it or not i have learned a couple things in my life. Maybe not much but a couple things.

It has been a pleasure to verbalize with you. I have learned a lot Have a good evening.

[44man]

I admire the steel shooters that draw and knock down plates as fast as the eye can see. But that takes free guns and ammo. It is a job to win. Many thousands of rounds a week supplied by a sponsor. Blisters on the finger.
Then the other thing that bothers me is to keep shooting an animal until it drops. Yeah, a buf that stands there but try that with a deer. I did it once when a deer ran past me because I did not know the first shot took out the heart. Again with one that did not run. TWICE with near 500 deer because there is NO WAY to hit again when they bolt. I could do it in an open field with a rifle, forget the revolver and in the woods you are lucky to get one shot.
Look at stats from police shootings. Sometimes hundreds of rounds with a few hits in the BG.
Reminds me of the guy that came to shoot here. White House security, puffed chest and all, important guy. He could not keep shots on paper at 10 yards.
Carry concealed and a perp can smash your head with a base ball bat. False security unless you practice every singe day. Walk past a creep and he lunges at you, are you good enough to draw and shoot? Can you even hit him?
Carry is good and everyone should if in a bad place but you need to be realistic about your abilities. A cop can empty his gun and never touch a creep. The deterrent is the gun on the cops hip.

[Larry Gibson]

Carry is good and everyone should if in a bad place but you need to be realistic about your abilities. A cop can empty his gun and never touch a creep. The deterrent is the gun on the cops hip.

That is the essence of it. It's also where situational awareness, tactics and good judgement come in; don't go or get into a situation where the BG has the advantage. If you must then a gun in hand (can still be out of sight or concealed) beats an attempted draw under pressure any time......did I mention tactics.........

Hopefully 44MAG#1 didn't go away mad and will come back on other topics......I did not see any "jest" in his post, perhaps my fault. A "LOLs or "smiley face" or "pulling your chain" icon might help some of us other seniors understand a "jest" in the midst of a serious conversation.........again, perhaps my fault for not seeing the jest.........

Larry Gibson

[44MAG#1]

"Hopefully 44MAG#1 didn't go away mad and will come back on other topics......"
I actually enjoyed it. It was fun.

[Larry Gibson]

44MAG#1

Great, stick around and lets have more fun with these discussions. Glad you weren't mad as we had no intention of it going that way.

Larry Gibson

[gunfan]

I remember when Lee Jurras introduced the concept of high-velocity, lower mass, hollow point handgun ammunition. The idea of the Jacketed Hollow Point bullet, generating "hydrostatic shock" convinced everyone that it worked... most of the time. The advancement of the ballistic technology has enhanced this property a great deal, but the velocity required to gain sufficient penetration for both exanguination and organ damage to permanently terminate a violent struggle.

As a friend of mine said, and I repeat at the risk of sounding trite: "Shot placement is King, penetration is Queen. Everything else is angels dancing on the heads of pins."

Scott

[44man]

A gun in hand--YES. Even hunting from a stand my revolver is in hand, not in a holster.
If I track or still hunt, my revolver is hanging from a sling but it is in hand.
The holster is for transport or when dragging. It is ugly for function.

[1Shirt]

If there was going to be an award for "The thread of the year", this one would be a prime candidate!
1Shirt!

[44MAG#1]

"A gun in hand--YES. Even hunting from a stand my revolver is in hand, not in a holster"
Wouldn't that be common sense? Especially for anyone that has at least been around the block half way?
Now try that at your local Wal-Mart walking through the parking lot at night.. Remember if a man needs his "persuader" if someone threatens to do bodily harms to him he is up the creek because many think they are quick draw artists when 1 in a million can do it. So how do we do it.
This is a good subject.

[gunfan]

If there was going to be an award for "The thread of the year", this one would be a prime candidate!
1Shirt!

Thank you!

[leeggen]

want to see how good you are under stress? do 20 jumping jacks and grab your pistol or rifle and fire 5 rounds. Did you even come close to the target, probably not. just shoot at 10 yrd and see what you can do, the challenge is on. myself I can't hi a 12" plate, but i am getting closer.
CD

[44man]

Stress is far worse then being out of breath.
Many of us have been in arguments with some jerk that is a threat and wants to fight. Notice how you get so angry you shake like crazy?
A bear coming full tilt at 20-30 yards will freeze you up unless you are so well trained all movements are just muscle memory. That training is an every day thing, stop for a month and you need to start all over again. Nothing a person gets good at will stay if it is not done all the time.
I learned that long ago when young. I could throw a bottle in the air with my right arm, grab the little Mark I out of my left hand and break every single bottle. I shot through the hole in washers, proven by taping the hole. A few weeks layoff and I had to start all over by flipping a bottle up with my left hand.
To even get some control when faced with real danger does not fall in your lap.
Quick draw without thought needs done every single day. Most LEO's need to qualify but many fail. They need to spray and pray under stress. I look at the gun on a cops hip and think that he will be at a loss if he really needs it because he is out of practice. But the gun in view is a deterrent none the less because a creep does not know the cop has not drawn the gun in a year.
There is no way to bluff your way through danger and there is too much internet bluff. At the point I am at today, I want my gun in my hand, false security with a gun that is hard to reach does no good.

[Silver Jack Hammer]

44man, good points. There are so many examples documented to illustrate these points.

[gunfan]

I want my gun in my hand, false security with a gun that is hard to reach does no good.


Amen to that!

Scott

[44MAG#1]

" I want my gun in my hand, false security with a gun that is hard to reach does no good. "
As I said in my post #81 try walking through the parking lot at the local Wal-Mart at night with your gun in hand. See how long before you are are able to do that until you are jacked up by the cops.
Now if you are carrying a small gun you may get by with it or if you have on a coat and a small gun you may have it in hand with the gun and hand inside your open coat.
I keep mine in my holster and look around as I walk to my motorized mode of transportation. Although this state has a Handgun Carry Permit not a Concealed Carry Permit meaning I could carry in the open but I don't.
Still I am not "teched in the head" and realize I am no speed demon when drawing. All I have to do is get the gun out BEFORE the impending evil starts to happen.
Again who would think an old, fat, bald headed and befuddled looking man would be packing?
Again I want all you true believers to start carrying your gun in your hand so you can have it out and tell me how that works out for you.
Should be interesting.

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive got to agree with 44man on at least the state police, sheriffs dept and local police around here. Most are poor shots at best. Qualifying is about so easy as a guy could throw a rock at those targets and make the cut and many still fail. We had a few join our ppc league and come in with there noses in the air thinking they were special and each and every one of them quit because they were so embarassed because even the women in the leauge were outshooting them. Our local sheriff got wind of this wind of this and asked me if his troups could borrow my range to practice. At first when i showed up they were a little standoffish. I think they were mad because the sherff made them practice and some thought they were alot more talented then they were. For the most part i tried staying away at first because of this. After a while i started showing up more and alot of them even asked for help.

I now have a standing deal with the sherrifs dept. If any of them want practice ammo and are willing to shoot cast in there guns ill provide ammo for free for them. A couple take me up on it but many still dont. I shake my head at it. They get to shoot on the clock so there getting paid to be there. they dont have to buy ammo as ill provide it but they still piss and moan about going to the range. the state troppers are in a league of there own. There even worse shots and still think there to good to practice and way to good to take advice from a civilian.

I remember one day being at the old range where the state police qualify and came in when they were shooting one day and the captain anounced that they had to shoot there backup guns that day. Well one tropper didnt have his and the captain (a pretty good guy and a decent shot) asked him why and he said it kicked to much so he leaves it at home. that captain sounded like my old drill instructor. He chewed him up and down for about 10 minutes and sent him home for it. I think the captain was even more angry because i was there to hear it and about spit my wad out when i broke out laughing. It makes me chuckle when some liberal police chief comes on tv and says teachers or you and i arent trained enough to carry a concealed gun!!! Even if the police did happen to show up in the middle of a crime which is very rare I sure wouldnt want to trust about 90 percent of them to protect me!

kind of why i chuckle at people on the internet quoting what some so called police expert has to say on proper gun loads or anything to do with ballistics. Might be one in 10,000 that has something to say that most here will learn anything from.

[M-Tecs]

Stress is far worse then being out of breath.
Many of us have been in arguments with some jerk that is a threat and wants to fight. Notice how you get so angry you shake like crazy?


I’ve been in a lot of arguments and more than my fair share of fights and I have never had the shakes. Been shot at a few times. Mostly rockets and mortars again no shakes. Stress effects different people in different ways. I don’t need a gun in my hand to be effective. Personally if I get to the point that I have to have a gun in my hand to be effective it’s probably time for me to hang up my guns.

[44man]

I’ve been in a lot of arguments and more than my fair share of fights and I have never had the shakes. Been shot at a few times. Mostly rockets and mortars again no shakes. Stress effects different people in different ways. I don’t need a gun in my hand to be effective. Personally if I get to the point that I have to have a gun in my hand to be effective it’s probably time for me to hang up my guns.
You have more control then I do about a fight.
A gun makes me dead calm. I don't want to fight but when young in school we had to defend ourselves from bullies, not like today where you get expelled.
You will be in trouble with a gun in hand and it can be seen. But in a pocket, out of sight so you have it and don't have to find it if needed is better for me. I have never needed to carry and do not own a carry gun so it is a moot point.
I hunt and a gun in a holster does not work well and it can be compared to a creep or a gang of them walking past you in a bad city and turning on you from feet away.
Too many stories of a guy getting his gun after being beat to the ground. Too many stories of break ins where the creeps get away after being shot at. If I need to shoot, I assure you the creep will be dead. One shot, one kill.
Are you a Ninja?
I also served but it was with an M1 and if you carried an M16 was it holstered or in your hands?