MAJOR Problem RCBS LAM II

[tomme boy]

I was sizing some 44 boolits tonite and was seeing some dark spots in my lube. I am using Tac#1. It is a very light green. I did not think anything of it as I was using some 50/50 last week on a few other loads.

A little while later, I ran out of lube. so I back off the spindle and pull it out. I notice the plug had what looked like little flakes on it. I looked into the reservoir and on top of the lube that is still in it is black with metal flakes all over the top of the lube. I have been having problems with this not holding pressure. RCBS set new o-rings and this worked for 1 stick of lube. Now I find this. I am not happy as I just lubed about 5K boolits for a few different rifles.

I sent RCBS a email about this, but I wanted everyone else to know about this so if they see the same thing, to make sure they look for it.

[Catshooter]

I'm not sure I follow tomme. Can you post a pic or two?


Cat

[tomme boy]

Here is a picture of the inside of the lube reservoir.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v21/tommeboy/101_0137_zpscf9960e4.jpg

Not very good pictures but the dark spots actually have metal flakes in the lube.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v21/tommeboy/101_0139_zpsd4203190.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v21/tommeboy/101_0140_zpsc76fbe33.jpg

[theperfessor]

Are you inferring that the O-rings are flaking apart? If that is the case, then what is causing them to do that? Either they are really old stock, there is something in your lube that is breaking them down chemically, or there is something in your luber that is mechanically abrading them. Find out what it is and the solution will probably be obvious.

Pictures would be nice, we're all just guessing trying to help.

Edit to add: OK, good for pictures, if metal flakes are present they have to come from somewhere.

[blaser.306]

How warm is your loading room? how hard is Randy's lube? Are the pressure screw threads dry or lightly oiled? Also when the piston gets to the bottom end is it moving freely or does it feel rough if rotated by hand on the screw ( are the internal or external threads rough )? Also what does the bottom of the pressure piston look like , Is there any abrasion on it or the sides of the lube resevoir?

[tomme boy]

The piston is spinning in the cylinder. That is what I am guessing what is happening.

[tomme boy]

The flakes look like iron, so it is the casting. The inside feels and looks rough.

[tomme boy]

The room is around 70* and it normally works with out any heat.

[blaser.306]

Is your pressure screw bent? causing it to make the piston scrape the sides of the tube?

[tomme boy]

Doesn't look like it. I tried to call RCBS earlier, but they were already closed and they don't take calls on Fridays. So, I emailed them about this. This is less than 1 year old.

What is happening is the oring is not giving the piston enough grip on the inside of the reservoir. So the piston is scraping on the sides. The piston is aluminum, so it should not be scraping any iron off. Unless the iron has galled into the aluminum piston. But this should act like a seal and it would not spin.

[B.C.Jay]

Either the piston is scraping the side of the resevoir or maybe the threads are stripping out of the piston? On my old RCBS, it has a steel piston. It also had a 1/8 dia O ring that sticks out far enough that I'm sure the piston could never scrape the sides.

[Mike W1]

I suspect it might be the fiber washer just under the threaded pressure cap or whatever they call it. I had something similar happen years back and that fiber washer would just wear away. You got kind of a "grating" feel when adding pressure. Nobody figured out why and for whatever reason it hasn't reared it's ugly head for my for quite awhile. Pull your pressure screw out and see if that might be the culprit.

[tomme boy]

I went down and looked at the piston again. It is steel not aluminum. I don't know why I thought it was alum.



There is no washer under the cap.

[MT Chambers]

Some one may have put replacement o-rings in and they are undersize, as someone else mentioned, the right o-rings would not allow the metals to touch. Using these smaller o-rings could cause this to contact and over time may have scored the cyl. I'd lightly hone the cyl., then use proper size o-rings.

[tomme boy]

I bought this new. And RCBS sent me new o-rings a few weeks back. I had to put new ones in because the old one would not hold the sides.

[Mike W1]

I went down and looked at the piston again. It is steel not aluminum. I don't know why I thought it was alum.



There is no washer under the cap.

The Lube Plunger retains the o-ring. Then top of that there should be that fiber washer. On mine it fits over a recessed spot under the wider top part of the Lube Pressure Screw. You might not notice it if it's covered with lube but it should be there.

[tomme boy]

Nope. not there. There is a metal wave washer. But nothing else.

[Mike W1]

I have a spare Lube Pressure Screw assembly and it appears the two are slightly different. On the one I'll picture you'll see you have to remove the retaining clip and the fiber washer goes on from the top. On the one in machine it goes on from the bottom and you unscrew the Lube Plunger. RCBS sent me the pictured one when I was having the problems and I've not used it being it's completely clean. Maybe a newer design I'd guess. Hard to know which design you have.

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/Mike4245/HPIM1918_zpsce94e91b.jpg

[tomme boy]

It is not that one.

[Mike W1]

It is not that one.
Then it's got to be like the one I'm actually using and that fiber washer should be up there fitting over a reduced step on the pressure screw. When I was having the problems those washers literally ground away to nothing. They seemed to last about 6k to 9k maximum! I'm going to try and get hold of RCBS next week and confirm at least two designs on the Lube Pressure Screw and be sure I'm correct on placement of the fiber washer.

[tomme boy]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v21/tommeboy/101_0142_zps13ade4d7.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v21/tommeboy/101_0141_zps7825e094.jpg

The washer that is there has looked like this since I got this. What purpose does it actually serve? It is something other that metal. It is cupped like a washer on the flash hider of a AR15.

[tomme boy]

You know what, I think that is the one you have pictured. It must have worn though the first time I used this. It fits up into the nut.

But, the metal shavings are still on the bottom of the piston. The washer has been explained, now to figure out the metal shavings.

[Mike W1]

It is not that one.

Now you've got me going. I just got done taking both my Pressure Screw assy's apart. They are both identical but the one I've been using also has ANOTHER fiber washer in it and it's a different size. It had to have come from RCBS as I have unused one's of each size that I know came from RCBS free gratis. Definitely calling the techies on Monday to see what's what. I'll keep you posted!

[Nocturnal Stumblebutt]

keep me in the loop on this one, I have a LAM II that is about a month old and I have also noticed the little black flakes, no metal shavings, at least I'm fairly sure they aren't metal, they do seem like they could be from a fiber washer, does that fiber washer need to be replaced? Before I read this thread I assumed the little black flecks were some sort of coating wearing off from somewhere inside.

[Nocturnal Stumblebutt]

I had something similar happen years back and that fiber washer would just wear away. You got kind of a "grating" feel when adding pressure.

This is what I am experiencing, but I pulled the pressure screw and inspected the threads, which seem fine, what now?

[leadman]

So maybe the "rumor" that RCBS was using chinese castings from a year or so ago may be true? My older RCBS luber/sizer has a piston with 2 o-rings on it. If it is the same thread maybe this would stop this?
Are the flakes magnetic?

[Mike W1]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v21/tommeboy/101_0142_zps13ade4d7.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v21/tommeboy/101_0141_zps7825e094.jpg

The washer that is there has looked like this since I got this. What purpose does it actually serve? It is something other that metal. It is cupped like a washer on the flash hider of a AR15.

Looks like yours is set up like my orginal Lube Pressure assy. That washer you show in the picture I'm not sure what it's supposed to do yet. Mine actually turned out to have 2 down there and I'm pretty sure I didn't put either one of them in but do have a spare that RCBS sent me. The one that's giving you the problem, (if that's the problem) is on the top side. You have to pop that retaining clip off the top of the Threaded Resevoir Cap to see it. It's a different size than that one in the picture and that would be the one that always used to grind up on me. The one up on the top part is roughly 7/8" OD, 1/2" ID, and 1/16" thick. If it's not intact there's your problem child. As for me I can't wait to talk to a tech at RCBS Monday.
Also FWIW the rubber O-ring is 13/16" ID, 1-1/16" OD and body is 1/8"

[B.C.Jay]

My fiber washer would be the same one that mike posted, although it's quite 'cupped' from use, it's not worn.
I definately don't have a steel thrust washer.

Any wear from the thrust washer would show up on top of the piston, so metal flake below the piston on the lube has to be either bore wear or thread wear.
I'ts definately strange from my point of view.

[tomme boy]

Well, I had to hold on the phone today for 53 min. before I got to talk to someone. All they would say is send it in. So, tomorrow, I'm sending this and a 44-245SWC mold in to have lookded at. The mold has a flat spot on one of the cavities.

[dragonrider]

So you have scrape marks on the piston??? and the inside of the lube cylinder??? If that is so then the orings must be too small, it you got any oring that is bigger than the piston, as it should be, said piston should not touch the wall. Yes .....NO >>>>>maybe. Just had another thought. Are the threads of the pressure screw buggered up at all like in one area, this could stop the pistion from moving verticaly and just spin around in one spot, yes..........no.............maybe. ??????????

[tomme boy]

No the threads are not damaged. I ran the piston up and down the length of the screw to see. Thats what I thought might be why the piston spins in the bore. The o-rings that are on it, came right from RCBS about 2 weeks ago.

If you look at the one picture looking into the reservoir, there are rings where the piston was spinning. In them spots, you have to spin the handle around about 5 full turns or more to lube just one boolit. It has been doing this since new. It was not as bad when I was using 50/50 lube. RandyRats Tac#1 is a little harder than 50/50, but nothing a little heat won't solve.

[Maven]

tomme boy, I also have an older LAM II and had problems with both the piston and O-rings. The replacements RCBS sent me are doubly problematic as the threads on the new piston don't match those on the old rod + the diameter of the new O-rings is too large to allow the orig. piston to grip the sides of the lube reservoir (no metal shavings, though). What you may want to try is building up the inner "ring" of the piston with teflon tape, duct tape, etc.* so that the new O-rings fit it tightly enough to prevent spinning and thus, grab the sides of the reservoir.

*I used compressible plumbers' packing used to form washers in old faucets, i.e., those without O-rings.

[Mike W1]

http://i171.photobucket.com/albums/u310/Mike4245/HPIM1922-1_zpsa762aa6b.jpg

I couldn't get thru to RCBS yesterday so I emailed this picture. You can see the sizes of stuff, though it's a bit of a guess on measuring a fiber washer. That one below the shoulder of course isn't shown in the parts list and I can't see where it's of any possible value. It's a snug fit on the shoulder of the Pressure Screw and probably stays up there OK from friction but there's a large gap between it and the Lube Plunger even when the Plunger is as far up as it'll go. So it cannot be of any value. I'll just wait at this point and see what they have to say when I get a reply.

[tomme boy]

I sent the luber and a 245swc 44 mold in today. We will see what they say. They wanted to know if I cleaned it, and I told them NO as I wanted them to see the metal shavings.

[Mike W1]

Mike, the fiber washer goes directly under the cap and above the flange on the threaded shaft. There is no reason for the parts to be where you found them…. The parts you need have been

ordered for you at N/C.........



Thank you for choosing RCBS

Have a great day

RCBS Tech/LM



Customer Service Hours:

Monday-Thursday 6:30 am to 3:30 pm

Here's the reply from RCBS when I emailed them about my rig. Good service as always and confirmed there was no possible need for a fiber washer below the shoulder on the unit.