I am surprised that........

[FLHTC]

with all the swaging experience on the net, there aren't any swagers selling their bullets here or on auction sites. Is it that the process is so slow that a profit can't be made? I recall that there were custom bullet makers coming out of the wood work in the 1960's and 70's but that's not the case any longer. Certainly the 224 jacket makers from 22lr has made swaging a worth while venture. Im thinking there must be something im not seeing.

[Reload3006]

I dont make bullets for sale for two reasons.
1) I dont want to spend the time or money on an FFL license. To make bullets for sale requires a class 6(I believe) FFL license. A Tax number etc.
2) The material costs are not that big a savings I would never be able to compete with Sierra,Hornady,Nosler,Barns the margin is just too small.

[Del-Ray]

I think he means just the projectile?

Do you still need an FFL to make non hazardous components?

[Sasquatch-1]

Using a manual single stage press the process is just WAY too time consuming. I would have to charge 3 or 4 or more times more then what you would pay at the store.

[deltaenterprizes]

Ammo and ammo components are the same under federal law. A manufacturer of bullets, brass, primers , powder or completed cartridges need a Type 06 FFL.
I did commercial casting for 12 years and had to have an FFL.

[Lizard333]

No selling for me either. WAY TO MUCH WORK! I have been known to trade them though. On a rare occasion.

[BwBrown]

I swage not to make money, or even, (to be honest), to save money. (One only need to add up what has been spent compared to what has been produced).

But I swage in order to eliminate one more level of dependency on the retail. Once I have laid in a supply of brass and lead, the only things I still must purchase are powder and primers.

[supe47]

You can always make black powder and I understand, while extremely difficult, a primer CAN be reloaded. Sounds like one of those tedious, labor intensive and difficult things we swagers, casters and reloaders are just dying to do. I think before trying to reload a primer I'd sell all my center fires and buy flintlocks.
Supe

[I'll Make Mine]

Primers aren't really difficult to reload, just time consuming and fiddly -- and you need access to strike-anywhere matches (they'll be in short supply too, when primers are impossible to get), as well as awareness that the primers you reload are corrosive (they're potassium chlorate based). Berdan primers are actually easier to reload than Boxer (if you have a means to deprime without damaging the cup) because you don't have to extract and replace the anvil (though Berdan brass needs to have the anvil restored by punching from inside the case every five reloads or so).

If you're down to reloading primers, though, there won't be a market for your centerfire rifles anyway -- no one else will be able to buy primers either, so you may as well get proficient at reviving primers and making black powder...

[rbt50]

i sell a few .700 and .510 i also make .224 and 6.5. not going to make alot of money but help pay for dies.

i also have a ffl and tax number

[DukeInFlorida]

I urge you to closely read the following:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/guides/importation-verification/firearms-verification-gca-ammunition.html

Especially the part that reads:
The term “Ammunition” means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellant powder designed for use in any firearm.

Casual sales are OK.

"Sales for profit" are not!

Unfortunately for all of us, the ATF guidelines for defining what is a "for profit" sale is very (VERY!) loosely worded.

Historically, manufacture and sales for profit of bullets has been one of the most regulated and PROSECUTED aspects of the "components" biz.

Not many of us have the machinery to manufacture brass cases from scratch, or primers from scratch. Or powder from scratch.

But many of us have the skills and tools to make bullets from scratch, hence the focus of the ATF on those endeavors. Especially when it comes to jacketed bullets. Even the cast bullet guys need the same license as the guys assembling the ammo for sale.

I am not a lawyer, no do I play one on TV.

However, I am VERY sure that you get get a door kicked in if you start selling bullets for a profit.

None of us want that.

And, we certainly don't want to sell bullets that we have put lots of time and effort into, for a break even or loss condition.

[ricklaut]

I'm considering it... but I don't have my BT dies yet, so I don't know if it would be worth it or not until I see for myself how much work is involved (and make a metric **** ton for myself first working out the kinks / process).

Here's what I'm considering - at this point, it's just a sparkle of an idea - let me know if you think this would work (and yes, I'd definitely do more legal research than asking here before jumping into it): I'd do if for a local FFL that has a manufacturing license, and the last step would be done at his place (i.e. bring the press / point forming die along with the components assembled up to that point). He'd pay me (and do a 1099) and then he'd retail them. It would obviously be pretty low volume, but over time, enough to pay for the dies and make some side money to finance other stuff.

Again, whether that's truly viable or not, I don't know yet. I'd think, though, that it would satisfy the ATF's requirements, and with the current component crisis, I'd think there would be at least a few people who would pay to play.

[DukeInFlorida]

You would have to have a long discussion with him about :

1) If you're going to do this for him under his license, you have to be an employee.....hhmmm lots of issues. Only employees are covered under ATF rules, from what I have been told.
2) You'd certainly have to be covered under his insurance, just in case you get HURT "on the job"
3) His insurance company would need to filled in completely with regard to your process, abilities, etc, for product liability purposes. Nothing happens unless the insurance company blesses the addition.
4) The FFL would see his insurance premium go up. He'd need to be able to make enough profit to pay for that.

You might do well to put a call into Corbin. They spend a lot of time talking to people, trying to walk them through how to get into the bullet making biz for profit. Unfortunately, the for profit guys only make a profit, considering insurance, etc, when making HIGH VOLUME bullets. Low volume probably won't work well. But Corbin has been supporting bullet manufacturers for decades. Call them and ask what they think of your plan.

Oh, and that Corbin hydraulic bullet making press that someone here recently got cheap at an auction???? That guy (with high volume equipment) could not make a profit enough to stay in biz.

[ricklaut]

Duke - Yep - the employee versus independent contractor part of it seems to be the important legal issue to figure out. If the licensee can have someone doing work under his license, but as an independent contractor, it could work pretty easily. Otherwise, to your point, it would have to be done as an actual employee, which makes it a bit more complex.

It may well not be possible for any number of reasons... and I'm completely fine with that as well. I'll have my dies, be self sufficient and be able tinker & shoot to my heart's content and only have to worry about finding powder & primers!

Edited to add: Yeah, I can't imagine getting licensed and trying to make it work just swaging or casting bullets, even with high speed / low drag equipment.

[Sasquatch-1]

After you get the dies and see exactly how long it takes to make 100 bullets you will not want to make any for anyone else. If you are making jacketed bullets you have to anneal the brass. If you don't have a way to anneal in mass this takes a long time. You then have to produce your cores. If casting them it's the same as casting any other boolit. If using wire you either have to purchase the wire or another set of dies for extruding. Then comes the 3 step process of making the bullet. Now if you do not want to be payed for your time you might be able to make bullets and sell them for twice what you would pay at the store. And don't forget the paperwork generated by running a buisness.

Personnelly I see no profit in it. There is realy no savings over purchasing for that matter. Just gives you a reliable supply.

All that being said I am sorry I didn't start swaging 30 years ago.