Now, I'm confused...

[webradbury]

I have been reading "The Paper Jacket" and found one statement very confusing. Mr. Matthews states that he sometimes uses a Corbin reducing die to size .458" diameter boolits to an unpatched diameter of .452", then patches said boolit to shoot in his 45-70 with, I'm assuming, a .450" bore.

With the unpatched boolit measuring .002" larger than the bore of the rifle, wouldn't the boolit still contact the lands of the barrel through the patch, thus making it pointless to patch this boolit? It seems to me it is defeating the purpose of patching boolits. If, however, there is a benefit to this method, I can size my GG boolits down to .451"-.452" all day long and save a bunch on a PP boolit mold.

Has anyone had any experience with any loadings like this? Thanks, Will

[Don McDowell]

Sizing down grease groove bullets to shoot them as paper patched is pretty much a waste of time and perfectly good bullets. The big benefit in the patched bullet is the lack of drag caused by the grease grooves.

[nhrifle]

Agreed, that doesn't make any sense to me either. My boolits come from my mould at .441, and get patched to .449 or .450 depending on my technique.

[Nobade]

It is the way to go if you are shooting with smokeless powder. But not what you want to do if using black powder. Black will collapse the empty lube grooves at the shot and distort your boolit, making it not fly accurately. Smokeless doesn't do this, and patching allows very high velocities without leading. Almost two totally different ways of looking at shooting, which is why we have two different rooms for paper patching.

[webradbury]

That does make sense thank you. I have noticed in the book that he goes back and forth between talking about smokeless and black powder loading techniques but doesn't specify which is being discussed. I have found the book a little bit hard to follow. Thanks, guys.

[Gunlaker]

The best thing you'll get out of that book is his idea for a paper patching board. You'll find more relevant information here about patching with black powder.

Chris.

[webradbury]

This is true! This forum is really an amazing wealth of knowledge and a great bunch of people. The best thing is the friendly atmosphere. Thanks to all!

[Don McDowell]

webradbury in all honesty the best thing you can do to learn this paper patching stuff is to jump in with both feet and go.
You might want to start by ordering this bullet mould http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=44-500P-D.png
Wrapping it in 9lb paper and setting it atop 70-75 grs 2f black with a .060 fiber wad between the bullet and the powder. From there you have something to go on and expand/learn from

[webradbury]

webradbury in all honesty the best thing you can do to learn this paper patching stuff is to jump in with both feet and go.
You might want to start by ordering this bullet mould http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=44-500P-D.png
Wrapping it in 9lb paper and setting it atop 70-75 grs 2f black with a .060 fiber wad between the bullet and the powder. From there you have something to go on and expand/learn from

thank you very much for that information that does help a lot!

[Don McDowell]

I have that mould, and that bullet has done well to 800 yds, but the days we tested it it didn't do well at 1000, but I'm thinking it was a wad stack/ fouling control issue.

[montana_charlie]

With the unpatched boolit measuring .002" larger than the bore of the rifle, wouldn't the boolit still contact the lands of the barrel through the patch, thus making it pointless to patch this boolit? It seems to me it is defeating the purpose of patching boolits. If, however, there is a benefit to this method, I can size my GG boolits down to .451"-.452" all day long and save a bunch on a PP boolit mold.

Has anyone had any experience with any loadings like this? Thanks, Will
I don't have any experience with down-sized bullets, but I can shed some light on your question about the lands.

I only shoot black powder in my 45/90, and I patch to groove diameter.
My groove dimension is .460", and my paper only adds .006" to the diameter of a bullet.
Therefore, in order to reach .460" when patched, my naked bullet must be .454".

This, like the bullet described by Matthews, is larger than my .450" bore.

Having questions like yours and on other factors, I have caught quite a few fired bullets in snowbanks to see the effects of various 'changes'.

The picture below is a comparison of two bullets which provided me with an answer on the direction I used to wrap the patch on a bullet.
But, the bullet on the right is so well lit it should answer your question.

Remember, the bullet was bigger than my bore, and was patched up to groove ... then fired with black powder.
The lands pressed the paper into the bullet when engraving it, and that is proven by the paper's 'texture' being visible in the bottom of the land impressions.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=50941&d=1261624854

There was no lead to steel contact, so the 'purpose' for paper patching remained in effect.
The bullet on the left, however, did experience lead to steel contact because the patch did not extend far enough forward.
That one doesn't show detail as well, but you can make out the 'smooth bottom' in the land engraving of that section up on the ogive.

CM

[webradbury]

That is exactly what I was theorizing...that the lands would sqeeze the paper into the bullet. Thanks for the pics...they explain it better than anything!

[johnson1942]

their is a wealth of info here from these guys. like the man said jump in and go from their. my 1/18 twist .45 muzzle loader shoots a .441 bullet wrapped with 2 wrapps of number nine paper. it shoot a 400 grain bullet to a 620 grain bullet with extreem accracy and i mean extreem. it bumps up real well. i use 110 grain of 2f goex behide them with a .60 thousands fiber wad in between. just the same as if i was loading up a 45/110 case. it is the same principle for a black powder cartride rifle, only mine goes down the muzzle. my barrel is a douglas just like many shooters out their who read this site. the only diff mine is 35 and 1/2 inches long. once you go paper patch you stay paper patch. have fun

[montana_charlie]

That is exactly what I was theorizing...that the lands would sqeeze the paper into the bullet. Thanks for the pics...they explain it better than anything!
When you were theorizing, you asked ...

wouldn't the boolit still contact the lands of the barrel through the patch, thus making it pointless to patch this boolit?

As you can see, the answer is 'no'. There is no contact between bullet and lands.

CM

[bigted]

in my humble opinion...i believe Mathews was trying to get jacketed velocitys with a cheap paperpatched boolit. instead of paying high dollars for bullets he invested in lead and tin to mix his own and develop high velocity loads from his rifle. he also played with the blackpowder and its needs but most of what he writes about is the smokless loads with the paperpatched boolits and their needs.

i still think his book is valuable for the beginner as well as the later novice when developing patching practices. his thoughts and experiences are well documented even tho his desire when writting this particular book seem to be with smokless powder.

his remarks about the grooved boolits are a very short section actually. he states that for "hunting" style accuracy and the beginner ...that sizing down greesers will give usable accuracy at a very reduced price. his reducing die can be had for far less money tho...lee sells their sizing pushthru dies in custome sizes for around 35 dollars i believe...i think i paid 35 for my special size dies from them...they work very well for this purpose but the mould Don prescribes will fill the nitch as well.

i still maintain that getting various diameter boolits from baco to develop your patching skills and experiments is the way to go however. i purchased many moulds at first and as such i will have a bunch of moulds that will be oiled and stowed away for gosh knows how long...but with those moulds i definetly developed a theory on my patchin needs. as well as my rifles needs and desires as for diameter and sizing the cases needs.

im still learning and experimenting tho and the trip is a very fun and sometimes exasperating trail at times...but strive on brother patcher...the good times well outweigh the struggles.

[Rattus58]

I have that mould, and that bullet has done well to 800 yds, but the days we tested it it didn't do well at 1000, but I'm thinking it was a wad stack/ fouling control issue.

Are you shooting that bullet out of a muzzleloader or centerfire? I have some 1-20 twist .451 bores that are fairly accurate and I've always wanted to try paper patching. I gas check my most accurate bullets ... and have no idea if its the gascheck or just the bullet design that makes them so, they seem to shoot better with the check than without and a wad... but... I use the gas check with the and under the assumption of it keeps me lead free.. I know, but I had a gas check bullet miraculously cleaned up a very severe leading ... and I talk myself into stuff too... :-D

[Rattus58]

I don't have any experience with down-sized bullets, but I can shed some light on your question about the lands.

I only shoot black powder in my 45/90, and I patch to groove diameter.
My groove dimension is .460", and my paper only adds .006" to the diameter of a bullet.
Therefore, in order to reach .460" when patched, my naked bullet must be .454".

This, like the bullet described by Matthews, is larger than my .450" bore.

Having questions like yours and on other factors, I have caught quite a few fired bullets in snowbanks to see the effects of various 'changes'.

The picture below is a comparison of two bullets which provided me with an answer on the direction I used to wrap the patch on a bullet.
But, the bullet on the right is so well lit it should answer your question.

Remember, the bullet was bigger than my bore, and was patched up to groove ... then fired with black powder.
The lands pressed the paper into the bullet when engraving it, and that is proven by the paper's 'texture' being visible in the bottom of the land impressions.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=50941&d=1261624854

There was no lead to steel contact, so the 'purpose' for paper patching remained in effect.
The bullet on the left, however, did experience lead to steel contact because the patch did not extend far enough forward.
That one doesn't show detail as well, but you can make out the 'smooth bottom' in the land engraving of that section up on the ogive.

CM

Interesting. I size my bullets to engrave .001, or .452 in a .451 bore and .457 groove diameter. If one wrapped a .451 or .452 bullet (disregarding the lube grooves for the argument) to .457 and loaded it in a muzzleloader, what condition would the patch be in at the charge? Should a patch be lubed in that scenario?

How much can you patch before it doesn't make sense. For example, that .442 bullet mentioned... can that be wrapped to .457 without issues?

Thanks... Aloha...

[Nobade]

Can't do that. Use a .442" boolit and patch it to .449" to load in a muzzle loader. Only way to load a muzzle loader with groove diameter boolits is to use a false muzzle that swages the boolit into the barrel gently.

[Don McDowell]

Rattus, I've been shooting that bullet out of a 45-70 with an 18 twist, it should work well in a 20 twist.

[Rattus58]

Rattus, I've been shooting that bullet out of a 45-70 with an 18 twist, it should work well in a 20 twist.

Thanks Don, I'm going to see about getting one of these molds... $87 is not a bad price for brass.

Much Aloha,

Tom

[Don McDowell]

Let us know how it treats you.

[RMulhern]

It is the way to go if you are shooting with smokeless powder. But not what you want to do if using black powder. Black will collapse the empty lube grooves at the shot and distort your boolit, making it not fly accurately. Smokeless doesn't do this, and patching allows very high velocities without leading. Almost two totally different ways of looking at shooting, which is why we have two different rooms for paper patching.

Mobade

"which is why we have two different rooms for paper patching."

Thank you!!

[RMulhern]

As far as 'Matthews' book is concerned....I'd just as soon go into town and find the nearest 'crackhead' standing on a street corner and ASK HIM how to load PP ammo!!

[RMulhern]

That is exactly what I was theorizing...that the lands would sqeeze the paper into the bullet. Thanks for the pics...they explain it better than anything!

UPSETTAGE......expanded the exterior of the bullet INTO the lands and grooves and at same time left the impressions into the exterior of the bullet!

[RMulhern]

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8240/8459341840_aefa9581ca_b.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/8459341840/)
530 gr. BACO Paper Patch (http://www.flickr.com/photos/61286670@N08/8459341840/) by Sharps45 2 7/8 (http://www.flickr.com/people/61286670@N08/), on Flickr