Smelting wheel weights - a few questions

[Markbo]

I have been able to get about 10 x 5 gallon buckets of wheel weights over the last year. Of course the latest ones are more than 1/2 zinc. Rather than sift through every single weight, I thought I would just melt the lead, stirring as soon as I could so that the lead would liquify and scoop out the zinc.

Of COURSE some of the zinc (or something else) melts, so I have to flux/skim dross. I am tring several different things including wax, sawdust and just a wood stick for stirring. I keep getting dross (dull looking "foam" floating on the top) even after 3 or 4 applications of flux. Do I just keep doing it until there isn't any or is a little normal, i.e. should it be shiney and clean or is a little bit of dross acceptable?

Appreciate any guidance.

[Ole]

This thread:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?63082-Zinc-Removal-with-Sulfur-Report

May answer some/most of your questions.

[BK7saum]

I would sift through every single weight. If you smelt zinc into your melt, you'll spend more time and trouble than just sorting through the weights. You spent a year collecting and 20-30 minutes per bucket is too long to try and make sure you get a good alloy.

I sort by hand. I don't use side-cutters on every weight, but you can find zinc by the shape/feel(weight) and labeling (most of the time). The last smelting I did, I ended up with 3 or 4 zincers in the pot. One slightly melted at one end, but I'm sure that it was not enough to affect the alloy. (no foamy dross), just clean looking lead as usual.

Another thing, If you know there are zincers in there and they are on the bottom of an empty pot, you will melt some of the zinc weights before you get a good melt going. If you start with a 1/2" or more clean lead in the pot and add your weights a few at a time, you have a better chance of getting to the zinc ones before they melt.

[Markbo]

I do appreciate the input. I am not real interested in using sulphur. The smell/smoke already raises the hackles of my neighbors in the sub division. And BK, while I appreciate the advice, I am 101% sure I could not sift through a 5 gallon bucket one weight at a time in anything less than several hours. And I know how to recognize them. Now if my current method is simply ruining my melt, perhaps I will have to invest the time, but I have a hardened pot of melt right now (I ran out of Propane!) so for this one, is simply fluxing until there is no dross the answer and if so, what is most effective in removing zinc - considering I would prefer to not use sulphur.

If you start with a 1/2" or more clean lead in the pot and add your weights a few at a time, you have a better chance of getting to the zinc ones before they melt.

I will try that... seems like an easy way to avoid trouble.

[Duckiller]

Marko you are looking too hard at indivual weights. Wear latex gloves andlook fast. Sort clip-ons in one bucket, stick-ons in another bucket and trash,steel and zinc in a third bucket. If you are sorting fast enough you will throw some zinc weights in with clip-ons. Slowly load your smelter and you will find zinc weights. Sorting and smelting is therapy for a stressful world. Relax and enjoy it.

[alfloyd]

You could also cast the zink infested pot into ingots, and them blend it back into known good lead a little at a time. This will make the zink in the batch less than 2% and it will cast ok.
I have done this with a batch that I aquired that had zink it it.
I have since always hand seperated the wheel weights.

Lafaun

[shadygrady]

sort out 40 lbs or more an send to me for lead

[largom]

I take no chances on getting zinc in my alloy. I inspect every wheel-weight. After you inspect one 5 gal. bucket full you will develop a technique which speeds up all of the rest.

Larry

[NHGrumpyGramps]

I use an old gasoline plumbers furnace so control of the heat is very difficult. I hand sort all the WW to separate lead COW, steel, zinc, and garbage. With the scrounging it takes now days to get wheel weights, I don't want to take a chance on losing what I can get from zinc contamination. It really doesn't take that long to go through a bucket as you get good at recognizing the type once you've done a couple of buckets. I have side nippers handy to check those that I'm not sure of.

[Cherokee]

I use the method of having some good clean lead in the bottom and slowly add WW's. I sort quickly as I add the WW's. Skim non-melting stuff as quickly as I can, flux, flux, etc. So far (3500#) no problem.

[runfiverun]

grey foam is an indication of antimony,and not enough heat when trying to flux it back in.
zink is completly different.
it is lumpy silver oatmeal looking stuff just under the surface.

[ssnow]

The hard bottom line is that when you consider the amount of zinc in use today, if you do not carefully sort through them, you are going to end up with zinc in your alloy. Why go to all this trouble to cast your own bullets, and then try to take a short cut that will ruin the whole pot?

While sorting weights may not be the most fun part of the process, it can be done much faster if you are in a good position to do so. I dump a pile on a table, sit in a comfortable chair, and start sorting. Steel, zinc, and trash in buckets on one side, stick ons and regular weights in buckets on the other side.

It does take a little time, but I spend no time or aggravation trying to salvage a pot of alloy due to zinc contamination.

[sthwestvictoria]

If you are sorting fast enough you will throw some zinc weights in with clip-ons. Slowly load your smelter and you will find zinc weights. Sorting and smelting is therapy for a stressful world. Relax and enjoy it.

Absolutely. Despite sorting the WW and thinking you have got all the Zn ones out, a few of the little ******** still end up in the smelt and need fishing out before they melt. Sneaky.

[JWFilips]

I'm pretty new to all this ( Smelted only once ) but I have been accumulating wheel weights. The reason I got in to all of this is to make something I'm sure about and do It the way I want. So starting from my first smelt ( With all the good folks here's help) I sat down & cutting pliers, nipped every piece of lead wheel weight. You can pretty much figure out the steel & most times the zinc but anything that goes into the smelt bucket is "nipped" to be sure....I'm doing it for myself so I'm taking no chances.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

I smelted around 200 lbs of wheel weights without sorting before I knew about zinc contamination, I just skimmed out the floaters. Alloy casts just fine.

[Friends call me Pac]

Glad i found this site. I just started casting this week and when I melted my ww I just dumped everything in & skimmed the ones that floated. My boolits came out and shot fine with my .45 but I still have so much to learn.

[Markbo]

Well I didn't know what a chore it would be to clean up zinc contamination. I have found another thread with advice on how to do that, which I will do next. BUT, now knowing what an enormous pain it is, I will change my routine. Thanks everyone for the input. Alwys more to learn, eh? Pre-sorting and adding slowly to existing melt will by my new & improved methodology. Now I just have to get some sawdust and sulphur! :-D

[captaint]

All this discussion is the reason I endure the pain and sort every one of those WW's. It's OK to start your smelt and watch carefully for zinkies - BUT - You get one in the bottom of the pot and it's gonna melt before you know what's going on. I won't take the chance. Then, I don't have 5 buckets, either..... I currently have 2 completely sorted buckets to melt. I like not having to sweat zink when I'm smelting. Just my .02..... Mike

[P.K.]

Wood paint stirrer in an open pot, seperates the clips and dross, zink usually will not have melted yet and just fish them out with forecepts.

[Buckdane]

Not being an acomplished castor, I need to ask this question. How do you know the difference between the zinc ones and the good ones? When I started I just procured some wheelweights, melted them and cast them. I had no clue of this zinc spector lurking in them. What does zinc do to the boolits? Sorry, 59yr old rookie to casting.

[David2011]

Buck,

Thanks for joinging the group! Zinc wheelweights usually have the letters "Zn" on them and are usually riveted to the steel clip. Lead weights always have the steel clip embedded in the casting. Steel or iron weights usually have "Fe" on them and are riveted to the clip. Additionally, you may have noticed the comments about using wire cutters to help identify the metal. Lead weights are soft and will mark or cut easily with wire cutters. Zinc and iron/steel weights are much harder and your wire cutters won't leave much of a mark on them. Once you've sorted a few you will easily recognize the differences. Note that a lot of newer lead weights are coated or painted with a silver plastic like coating. The coating remains on top of the melt as the metal melts away. Don't panic; those are still good lead alloy. Just skim the coating off the top if it doesn't burn off first. Ask more questions any time and take a look at the stickies. Here's one with photos that will help: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?139839-Guide-to-Hand-Sorting-Wheel-Weights

David

[ssnow]

Most of the zinc weights are marked Zn, however, some will not be marked. After sorting through a bucket or two you will be able to visually identify most of them.

A simple test is to make a small cut/indention with a pair of linesman pliers, or other wire cutters. Lead will mark easily, in fact, you can easily cut the lead weight in half with the cutters.

The zinc weights are hard, difficult to mark, and the cutters will not cut them in half without a tremendous amount of pressure.

It is a very easy test, and if not fool proof, it is at least idiot resistant :)

Sort a bucket or two, soon you can do it much faster as you will have learned to visually identify 90 % or more of them.

[ssnow]

Sorry David, posting at the same time :)

[Buckdane]

David,
Thanks!! I knew I came to the right place for info. I have been leary of many forums as there are so many computer-only experts online. Like in the old days talking about how small a groups they shot with their typewriters. I learn everytime I log on to this site.
Thanks again.
Buck

[P.K.]

David,
Thanks!! I knew I came to the right place for info. I have been leary of many forums as there are so many computer-only experts online. Like in the old days talking about how small a groups they shot with their typewriters. I learn everytime I log on to this site.
Thanks again.
Buck

Hey! Lay off my Clerk Typist Badge! ;-)

( Remember I'm Gonna Get You Sucka?)

[JWFilips]

Doesn't take me too long to go through a bucket. I grab a few handfuls and put them in a small box on my lap. Grab my nippers &
pinch an edge. The lead ones will cut ( drop them in another bucket "GOOD") the zinc & steel sometimes get a little nip but nothing happens the cutters just slide off & I drop these to the ground. Soon you learn which to just drop on the ground BUT NOTHING goes into the GOOD bucket that hasn't been snip tested! This way no mistakes Since it is mindless work....... doing it like this prevents mistakes when your brain wanders off.
A heads up: some of the newer lead weights are painted shinny gray they can look like zinc but if they nip & slice they are lead.
Also there is a guy on this forum ( can't remember his name) that will trade you your zinc weights for equal amount of lead weights (Makes zinc mortar rounds)

& Oh Yeah! you will learn a lot of stuff here every time you sign in !

[PhantomF4E]

59927

Hand sorted 4 buckets . Not one zinc floater. But my back was a bit ticked off !

[bowfishn]

I guess I am lazy, I start off with a good batch of WW and melt it down keeping the temp at 600 deg. I throw in WW from my bucket and monitor the temp making sure it does not go above 600. All the zinc steel and tape ons float to the top. When my pot is full of melted WW I bring the temp up, flux and dross off the dirt. Cast into ingots and use the ingots to make perfectly cast bullets with good fill. It works for me and I will continue that way.

[snuffy]

I guess I am lazy, I start off with a good batch of WW and melt it down keeping the temp at 600 deg. I throw in WW from my bucket and monitor the temp making sure it does not go above 600. All the zinc steel and tape ons float to the top. When my pot is full of melted WW I bring the temp up, flux and dross off the dirt. Cast into ingots and use the ingots to make perfectly cast bullets with good fill. It works for me and I will continue that way.

It took 28 posts for someone to mention temperature?

Zinc melts at 787 degrees. As long as you keep the temp BELOW that point, you will NOT melt any zinc. Temp control of a propane fired pot is difficult at best. If there's a chance of there being any zinc weights in a batch of WW, then you must keep the temp down,,--at first.

As soon as you have all the zinc skimmed off,(as well as the steel clips and other junk), turn the heat up far enough to get an effective flux,(minimum of 750 deg). Fluxing at too low a temp will not recombine the oxidized elements, and will not remove dirt and other junk.

Smelting without a thermometer is like playing Russian roulette. Same goes for casting! Don't get in a hurry, crank up the gas valve, and ruin a pot of metal. Take it slow, low heat, you'll end up with better metal with which to cast.

[Range Raider]

Sorting is the best way. Try using a brick and drag the wheel weight across it. Over time you will recognize the sound and feel the difference between lead, zinc, iron, and steel. Once you get a system down it is amazing how fast the sorting process goes. Just my two cents for what it's worth.

[plainsman456]

I use the side cutter trick as well as tapping the suspect weights on the concrete.

The zink weights do ring when struck.

[JWFilips]

It took 28 posts for someone to mention temperature?

Zinc melts at 787 degrees. As long as you keep the temp BELOW that point, you will NOT melt any zinc. Temp control of a propane fired pot is difficult at best. If there's a chance of there being any zinc weights in a batch of WW, then you must keep the temp down,,--at first.



I use a propane turkey frier burner and yes it is hard to control temps at the initial melt. The first melt that forms in the pot below the pile of wheel weights gets hot quick while the pile slowly melts down: way to easy to jump to 800 degrees in the bottom of the pile ! One zinc one down there and you know what happens.....
Better to be safe then sorry. Once it is all melted you can fiddle with the controls to balance the temps. But Very hard to do with the stack of weights and a small melted puddle at least that's what I have observed. Also the thermometer doesn't do it's best read when only immersed in a 1" deep puddle of a wide dutch oven style smelting pot.

[savage308]

I tried separating first but I missed a few that got into the pot but I skimmed them out.as far as I can tell I have had no contamination but now im going to have to learn more about how to look for zink contamination

[snuffy]

I use a propane turkey frier burner and yes it is hard to control temps at the initial melt. The first melt that forms in the pot below the pile of wheel weights gets hot quick while the pile slowly melts down: way to easy to jump to 800 degrees in the bottom of the pile ! One zinc one down there and you know what happens.....
Better to be safe then sorry. Once it is all melted you can fiddle with the controls to balance the temps. But Very hard to do with the stack of weights and a small melted puddle at least that's what I have observed. Also the thermometer doesn't do it's best read when only immersed in a 1" deep puddle of a wide dutch oven style smelting pot.

That's why you never let the pot go empty. I leave at least
2" of lead in the bottom of the pot. You can't ladle much more than that out anyway. If I'm doing WW, I only turn the flame up enough to get that lead melted and get a temp. read on it. I want to see about 700 degrees and steady before dumping the WW in. Then don't turn the heat up! Yeah, sure, it will take longer, but you'll be safe, be able to spot the zinc and steel weights, then skim them off.

Sort if you want to, it drives me nuts, something like case prep. Exactly why I hated inventory at work, I'd do just about anything to avoid that!

[bowfishn]

I also start the pot with a known supply of wheel weights, a few inches at 600 degrees using a thermometer. I have never had a problem as long as I make sure the temp stays down as I seperate the clips, steel and zinc weights. Also as mentioned the stick ons that are usually pure lead also float to the top and I put them in with the poure lead bucket. Years ago before anyone was aware of zinc WW I had melted in some zinc because I was not watching temp. I used the sulpher method and removed the zinc, worked well.

[Markbo]

I think the problem is using a Propane turkey fryer, the temp gets above 600° whether I plan on it or not. Think of a 2/3 propane tank - my smelting pot - almost full of wheel weights. By the time the liquid is visible or enough that it floats what's on top of it, that temp in the bottom (and yes I do use a top) has exceeded 600°. I have no doubt about that. Leaving some lead in the bottom & slowly adding weights will reduce the possibility of contamination and will sorting the weights.

Having done the sulfur stuff this weekend I'd prefer to not have to do that any more. Sooo... I sorted through all my wheel weights and got roughly 50/50 lead and other. I have segregated the lead and will sell off the other. Was it a pain? Sure was. But not as bad as the constant wondering 'if' my melt is contaminated and why I can't get bullets to fill out nicely. Now that I know I have cleaned out these ingots I can also know that my stock is good and hopefully not have the casting issues I had in the past. I will post a thread about my findings in due time.

Like someone said in another thread, this ain't rocket science. But it sure does make it easier when you know a lot more about it! :)

[cs86]

I haven't read through all the posts, but a method I use is to start the pot with lead WW that are hand sorted until you get a nice amount of lead liquified. Then I flux and pull out the clips. Then I throw hand fulls at a time with a quick glance to see if any of them may be zinc or steel. As long as you are melting at a low enough temp the zinc will float on top, and they can be scooped out. As you are adding weights it cools the molten lead.

The reason for carefully sorting the first lead weights is because the bottom of the pot is the hottest and if a zinc weight is on the bottom it will melt first.

[detox]

Today I will be showing a friend how to cast using his WW lead and I fear it may be contaminated with zinc. When casting what is a good indicator lead is contaminated with zinc? What are the easy signs to look for during casting?

[Wal']

The only way I've found any contamination in my mix as many have already advised here is to keep the temperature at approx 600F & scoop out anything that even looks like as RFR said.... lumpy oatmeal.

[detox]

The only way I've found any contamination in my mix as many have already advised here is to keep the temperature at approx 600F & scoop out anything that even looks like as RFR said.... lumpy oatmeal.

Thanks you! I have a casting thermometer

[snuffy]

I haven't read through all the posts, but a method I use is to start the pot with lead WW that are hand sorted until you get a nice amount of lead liquified. Then I flux and pull out the clips. Then I throw hand fulls at a time with a quick glance to see if any of them may be zinc or steel. As long as you are melting at a low enough temp the zinc will float on top, and they can be scooped out. As you are adding weights it cools the molten lead.

The reason for carefully sorting the first lead weights is because the bottom of the pot is the hottest and if a zinc weight is on the bottom it will melt first.

I feel like a voice crying out in the wilderness! Temperature control! There's no reason why you HAVE to crank the valve full open on that turkey fryer. It'll melt lead at half throttle, and do it WITHOUT melting any zinc.

Carefully sorting the lead WW from the zinc, then melting that lead below 787 degrees,(the melting point for zinc), then adding more WW watching for those that float.

Loading up 100 pounds of unmelted WW, then cranking the propane valve up to max, WILL result in the bottom of the pot to go above 787 degrees! Do it right, you'll end up with good, clean lead. Be in a hurry, you'll have zinc contaminated alloy.

Unless of course if you sort EVERY zinc weight before smelting!