45 acp lee TC 230 grain

[acsteve]

anyone using this mold, does it feed well in 1911's? Hardness suggestions? thanks

[marlin39a]

I love this boolit in my 2 1911's. Cast with 1/2 linotype & 1/2 soft lead. Sized .452 with White label 2500+. Loaded over 4.8 gr HP-38. Shoots great, no leading at all.

[9.3X62AL]

Marlin 39A took the words right out of my mouth. Same alloy, similar load (substitute WW-231), seat the boolit with .020" of front drive band outside the case mouth and the cartridges have fed in 1911A1s, SIG P-220s, Glock 21, S&W 645.

[EMC45]

I use it in my .45s with 4.5gr. Bullseye. It does well in my SA 1911A1 Mil Spec and my G36. Camp Carbine too. Size it to .452 with home made 50/50 beswax Moly lube. Pure clip on WW metal as alloy. Works well.

[rexherring]

They shoot well out of my compact .45 Taurus, 5 grs of AA#5. Mine are about 75% WW 25 % Pb.

[crawfobj]

I have this mold and its tumble lube sister. Have only used the TL version so far, but it functions great in my 1911 over light loads of bullseye. No leading whatsoever, and I'm using straight ACWW with a touch of extra tin.

[Nobade]

The TL version works great in my Dan Wesson. I have to seat it so no parallel sticks out of the case, and it feeds slick. ACWW metal, Green Dot powder.

[35remington]

I load to 1.220" and seat it over an economical charge of 4.8 grains of Red Dot. A little faster than factory ball, around 855 fps. No complaints.

[Forrest r]

:coffee:Well heck rem35 as much as you complain about the accuracy of the 45acp you must be shooting dirt clods @ 10 paces with them things. AaaaH what the heck, whatever makes you happy.

[makicjf]

I have it in the tumble lubed version. I run it from straight WW, air cooled. inthe 45 acp I seat to 1.175, or with just a hint of the shoulder showing. This allows easy chambering in both 1911's and all three 45 acp cylinders for the revovlers. I also use it for rifle 45 colt loads for cowboy matches. Seated to the last lube wrinkle and roll crimped it seats at 1.60. I shoot this over 8 of unique, which should about duplicate the Schofield load. I shoot the 45 acp over 5.8 of unique, which should be about 850 ( the same as the colt cowboy load). Prior to adopting this as a more assertive cowboy load bullet, I would size to .452. Both my 45 colt rifles slug at .452 so I leave the 230 Tc (weighs 238- 240 from straight ww and LLA lubed) unsized at .454. In the sake of saving work I ran 50 unsized through the acp cylinders and the 1911''s: same accuracy and no leading with zero chambering issues. Needless to say, I now run them all unsized. I have 1000 45 colt loaded and over 1000 45 acp. I love this little bullet. Its also killed a 180 lbs hog at 25 yards from an officers model 45 acp ( one shot, behind the shoulder, dropped drt, broke two ribs, shredded the lungs and stopped against the far rib cage. BTW, its also my carry load in both 1911's, and the 45 Blackhawk 45 colt when the are carried concelaed. a 180 pig is close enough to a 180 lbs goblin for me. should work the same--perfectly), a nasty attack rooster and put a few squirrels in the frying pan. I need to get a six banger tl version!
Jason

[km101]

Works great in my 1911s. I am not a fan of the bevel base bullet, but it has been accurate and no leading. I am casting it with COWW alloy and a load that chronos at 875 fps and it has been a good performer.

[crawfobj]

I hadn't even thought of using this in 45 colt. Glad you mentioned that. I have a pile of them ready to load.

59919

[sundog]

You 'da man', Jason. What better way to say, 'leave me alone', than real boolits in y'all's CC piece! This boolit, and it's littler brother for the 40 S&W are the bees knees.

[35remington]

Forest, I don't complain about the accuracy of the 45 ACP. I just don't get involved with things that don't help it.

[Forrest r]

That's just it, you're using a junk bbl.

Why don't you post a pic of your loads with 55/1000th's of the boolit sholder hanging out out of the case. Your crimping that bullet in the last lube groove or right next to it which is way to long for a 1911 bbl. Like makicjf posted above, when that boolit is loaded out that far it's being used in a revolver or a piece of **** barrel.

60098
.

[CJR]

For those interested in some history on the truncated cone (TC) bullet. The superb accuracy of the TC pistol bullet, that we know today, did not happen by accident. Years ago, the Air Force (AF) was asked to improve the accuracy of the 9mm RN concave base bullet which had 8" groups at 50 yds. Earlier the AF and GE had developed the flight equations for an accurate bullet form. With these equations, the AF asked S&W to swage some standard bullets to their design. The AF then test-fired them and got improved accuracy. Then Hornady was contracted to produce a small quantity which were then final test-fired by H.P. White Ballistic Laboratory. Resultant group size was less than an inch at 50 yds. Then someone asked, "Why not a TC for 45 ACP?" Now just about everyone produces these well tested "AF designed TC bullets". If you have a 45ACP that "burps" every now and then feeding these TC bullets, have the pistol modified slightly so they feed properly. It's worth it! Why? Not only are these TC bullets accurate but they also hit very hard.

Best regards,

CJR

[Gray Fox]

If I recall correctly, COL Jeff Cooper also liked this boolit shape and considered it a good one for a defensive .45 load. The experience cited above with the 180 pound hog backs that premise. Does anyone else recall COL Cooper mentioning this? GF

[Wayne Dobbs]

Gray Fox,

I recall Col. Cooper writing that he preferred the then new 230 JTC bullet over a stiff charge of Unique (over seven grains IIRC!) for a service load. In one of Col. Cooper's writings (c. 1982 in the Complete Book of Shooting), he stated that, "loaded 100 foot seconds faster (than the GI load) and with a proper combat bullet, the .45 ACP comes on like a well trained rhinoceros." He was referring to the then new Hornady JTC as that proper bullet. I carried the Hornady factory load back in the early 80s as my 1911's duty load and it was very accurate and effective, although I'm sure it was very over penetrative.

I still use cast TC bullets in my .45 shooting today over either 4.0 Clays or 5.0 HP-38/231 and find it very reliable and accurate. I'm sure it will do a more than adequate job on two legged or four legged targets if needed.

[45sixgun]

Looks like a great boolit. I'm putting this at the top of my wish list. I have the 452-200-RF and I've been real happy with it pushed by 6 gr. of Unique.

[scattershot]

If I recall correctly, COL Jeff Cooper also liked this boolit shape and considered it a good one for a defensive .45 load. The experience cited above with the 180 pound hog backs that premise. Does anyone else recall COL Cooper mentioning this? GF

I do. I believe he said that he wished it was the configuration used in the GI round. Can't remember where i read it, but it sticks in my mind because that's the boolit I prefer in the ACP..

[fivegunner]

Yes I have the lee in a six cavity mold and I have to say it shoots very well!! . I also have a few H&G molds #292 for this shape , they all cast very fast and shoot as well as I can hold.

[Snapping Twig]

That's my favorite boolit!

I load it over 5.3g W231.

Very accurate and hard hitting.

[EMC45]

Shot some more of these outta the G36 on Saturday. They did great!

[Dale53]

My main bullet for the .45 ACP (and .45 Auto rim) is the Mihec version of the H&G #68. However, if your favorite revolver is a 625 (I have both a 625-6 with 5" barrel and a 625-8 with a 4" barrel) like mine, then you will also appreciate a good bullet that loads "quick and slick" with full moon clips. That bullet is Lee's .452 230 TC. I have it in a six cavity mould. That mould does not begin to rank with a Mihec or NOE mould but still does a good job. In my 625's it will shoot 1 1/4" groups at 25 yards (the Mihec #68 does well under 1" at the same distance) even tho' the size varies .002"-.003" from cavity to cavity. A full moon clip load of these slides into a 625 "slick as a whistle" and the relatively wide meplat has much better terminal effects than hard ball. It also feeds well, even in my 3" barreled Kimber CDP Ultra II as well as my full size 1911. As a matter of information, I size these to .452" and lube with Carnauba Red from Lars White Label lubes.

FWIW
Dale53

[Wayne Dobbs]

Dale53,

What are your loads with each boolit??

[Echd]

I use it with straight COWWs over 5gr red dot. Shoots great in my p220 and g21!

[35remington]

Quoted by Wayne Dobbs:

"In one of Col. Cooper's writings (c. 1982 in the Complete Book of Shooting), he stated that, "loaded 100 foot seconds faster (than the GI load) and with a proper combat bullet, the .45 ACP comes on like a well trained rhinoceros." He was referring to the then new Hornady JTC as that proper bullet."

Well, no, he wasn't. I have one of the original volumes of the Complete Book of Shooting (that contains the work of other authors) and while the above is a neat quote, when he made it the Hornady bullet did not yet exist as the original printing was in the mid 60's, not the 80's. What he was referring to was the 45 ACP's maximum potential in the 1911 as compared to the typical GI ball load. It wasn't about the Hornady bullet and he had no knowledge of it at the time he wrote the paragraph above.

[35remington]

Just pulled my copy out and confirmed the copyright date was 1965. So he wrote that paragraph quoted above sometime prior to that. At the time he was helping to develop the "modern technique" of the combat pistol.

The complete quote is as follows:

"The military load is both a bit light, at 860 foot seconds, and attenuated by its Geneva Convention bullet but military ammunition is useful mainly for practice. Loaded 100 foot seconds faster and with a proper combat bullet, the 45 auto comes on like a well trained rhinoceros."

[Dale53]

I was quite active in IPSC during the seventies and early eighties. I CAN confirm, that Col. Cooper DID recommend the Hornady 230 gr truncated cone (jacketed bullet) the year that it came out. It WAS later than the sixties but it DID become a bullet he recommended and stated in writing that it was his load of choice.

Wayne;
Using the cast lead Lee 230 gr TC ahead of 7.0 grs of Unique will move that bullet out in excess of 900 fps. This exceeds the ballistics of the military load with much better terminal effect. My target load is the MIhec version of the #68 H&G 200 gr SWC ahead of 4.0 grs of Bullseye or equivalent (currently Titegroup). This will group well under 1" at 25 yards off a rest.

FWIW
Dale53

[35remington]

I know he did recommend it when it did come out. The quote above was not referring to it because in 1965 it did not yet exist.

It is more reasonable these days to reduce Col. Cooper's load to 6.5 grains, as depending upon gun, like mine, 7 grains would be rather excessive and potentially faster than Plus P velocities.

[makicjf]

I am curious. Loaded at 1.175, given the short nature of the lee 230 tc boolit, it is similiar to loading most 230 round nose to about 1.20. When I was shooting these in ruger blackhawks only, I loaded over 6 of unique and the shot very well ( no chrono so no idea of veleocity). When I bought a few 1911's I reduced to 5.8 unique which is .1 grains higher than Lyman lists for this boolit seated to 1.170. My speer 12 shows a lead round nose at 5.8 of unique with an oal of 1.260 ( if memory serves). Jacketed rounds are actually listed all the way to 6.4 with unique with similiar oal. In ya'lls opinion, is 6.0-6.4 ok with the short oal of 1.175 ( equivialent to about 1.20 with a round nose)? I know they are ruger safe, I fire some lee 252 swc's ( 258 from ww) sized to .452 over 6 of unique seated to 1.195. Speer 12 shows a 260 hp over max of 6.2 or 6.4 ( again from memory) at an oal of 1.20. But would they be ok in a 1911? Would they batter the pistol? If one went hotter , maybe a heavier recoil spring? This round has proven effective for me against larger living things at about 835-850 fps, but a touch faster is interesting.
Jason

[35remington]

See if 1.220"works before doing anything else.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Just pulled my copy out and confirmed the copyright date was 1965. So he wrote that paragraph quoted above sometime prior to that. At the time he was helping to develop the "modern technique" of the combat pistol.

The complete quote is as follows:

"The military load is both a bit light, at 860 foot seconds, and attenuated by its Geneva Convention bullet but military ammunition is useful mainly for practice. Loaded 100 foot seconds faster and with a proper combat bullet, the 45 auto comes on like a well trained rhinoceros."

Not to argue, but my version is the 1982 printing and it discusses the Hornady JTC and uses the above quote. Were you aware that there had been a follow up printing?

[makicjf]

Unsized (.453-.454) they will not chamber in any of my 3 blackhawk cylinders unless less than 1.178. All three have visited the cylindersmith for a .4525 throat. The cartridge drop flush with the hood on both 1911 bbls below the same lenght and crimped to .469-.470 . Sizing to .452 might allow a longer oal, but having to split boolit bins between 45 colt/rossi 92 cowboy loads unsized and .452 45 acp bins is more time than I want to invest for a gain in velocity that i really don't need. Thats what ruger only 45 colt loads are for! I may size 10 and see if it makes a difference in the allowable oal, but I am not sure the extra work is worth the return for the boolits intended purpose.
Thanks for the input!
Jason

[30calflash]

I know he did recommend it when it did come out. The quote above was not referring to it because in 1965 it did not yet exist.

It is more reasonable these days to reduce Col. Cooper's load to 6.5 grains, as depending upon gun, like mine, 7 grains would be rather excessive and potentially faster than Plus P velocities.

I recall Col. Cooper having written this some time back. Maybe his column in G&A? He seemed to push some loads that were on the hot side also.

What diameters are you getting with this in standard and TL designs?

[35remington]

Wayne, the original quote from the first printing of the book didn't mention the Hornady bullet. I am most certainly aware the book had another printing because my book is the second printing in 1972. It did not mention the Hornady bullet either.

The is no question that when he wrote that passage originally (which means the first time he wrote it prior to 1965) that he did not have the Hornady bullet in mind. It did not exist. So my comments as they stand are correct. The quote from Mr. Cooper that you posted predates the Hornady bullet by a considerable number of years, and he had no knowledge of the Hornady bullet when he penned those lines.

But he did indeed endorse the Hornady bullet when he found out about it. Point is, the introduction of the Hornady bullet did not prompt him to write that passage about it as the "proper" combat bullet as those words were already committed to print long before the Hornady 230 TC was introduced. My possession of an earlier printing just puts things in the proper context. His printed endorsement of the Hornady came later in other sources like Guns and Ammo. Your later printing confuses things to some degree in terms of chronology.

You weren't aware that there had been much earlier printings of the book.

And pass on loading 7 grains of Unique under the Hornady bullet or the Lee cast version of it. Proper OAL is from 1.200 to 1.220."

Mine go about .453" as cast.

[Wayne Dobbs]

35,

The '82 printing DOES have a Cooper discussion of the Hornady JTC. I'm in FL conducting armorer training and when I get back to TX, I'll scan and either post it or email it to you. I do recall Cooper writings in various periodicals about the bullet also, but he did incorporate it into the latest and last (I believe) printing of a great resource book.

[35remington]

I don't doubt he included it in the later work as he mentioned it in print more than once.

I was simply making the point that he did not originally write your quoted words as a testimonial to the Hornady 230 FP as the "proper" bullet. They stood alone through two printings of the book without mention of the bullet since it did not exist.

His idea of the "proper" combat bullet in 1965 and 1972 wasn't the Hornady 230 FP, and the quote wasn't a testimonial for the Hornady bullet as originally written. The words existed long before the bullet.

Do scan the page and send or post it because I'd be interested in the context. A scan would be better.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Will do, brother! If I recall correctly, he liked either the H&G 68 or the Markell 215 SWCs way back in the day. Do you think that's what he considered as "proper"??

[AviatorTroy]

I have that bullet and it feeds well in my Springfield 1911 but my StarPD will not feed it. Also have found that the Lee round nose 230gr tumble lube is more accurate out of both pistols. I don't know why, but every gun is different.

[kidmma]

How about some pics of them boollits loaded up?