bullet falls into case 8mm

[nekshot]

I know many of you deal with this and I am inquisitive as to what is your most common approach. I have a 8mm sporter with a perfect 8mmS chamber. The bore is 318 and absolutely pristine. It shoots rcbs32-170 boolits better than I can shoot. What I like shooting in this gun is the hornady 32 gummy bullets, however they are 321 and the neck is much bigger for 323 bullets. Ok I don't have any more 30-06 military brass and don't want any more ( the last were corroded to much to use) . I have pinched the neck and used the lee crimp to (seat the bullet) and I have paper patched others to bring up to neck size and then crimp. I can tell no real difference in accuracy but the paper deal is a pain. Ok, how do you fellas handle this predicament?

[Old Iron Sights]

Chuck the case neck expander in a drill press and sand it down smaller or remove it all together. I have two different expanders for my 8mm sizer die since my gew88 had a smaller bore.

[nekshot]

The only problem here is I am not sizing anything. I shoot, change primer and pour in powder and try get the bullet to stay put until it is crimped. I am trying to keep from working the brass too much by keeping everthing as fired from the chamber

[ukrifleman]

The only problem here is I am not sizing anything. I shoot, change primer and pour in powder and try get the bullet to stay put until it is crimped. I am trying to keep from working the brass too much by keeping everthing as fired from the chamber

I think the very least you should do is neck size your cases and don't forget to check the case length AFTER sizing and trim if required.
ukrifleman.

[bcp477]

If you are not sizing the cases, there's your problem. ALL chambers are always a few thousandths larger than the spec'd brass dimensions of a loaded cartridge - otherwise there would be no way to get the cartridge to chamber easily. When fired, brass cartridge cases expand to fit the chamber walls, then "snap back" somewhat, though not back to spec'd dimensions. They end up somewhere between the spec'd dimensions and the chamber dimensions - or they couldn't be extracted easily.

What you have now is over-sized cases, in essence. You are correct in that you don't want to full-length re-size them - but you DO need to re-size the necks. You should be able to adjust your sizing die to just size the necks. Then, problem solved.....but you'll still have cases which fit your chamber as closely as possible, for optimum accuracy (because you won't be pushing the case shoulders back during re- sizing).

[nekshot]

when I try sizing them the .321 bullet still falls down into the case. I must pinch them simply to keep bullet in position till I get it ran up into die and then the bullet will be loose till I crimp them. I am trying to put a .321 diameter bullet in a neck sized for .323. The pinching shortens case neck life and I guess all I am left with doing is to paper patch these .321 diameter bullets. Military brass is thicker and works but that is sketchy also.

[Blammer]

sounds like you need to get a neck bushing die with the neck size you want. Redding makes a nice one, that's the only suggestion I have.

[nekshot]

Thanks BLAMMER, I totally forgot about those redding dies. Well so much for trying to do it on the cheap!

[jonk]

On the cheap? Don't seat the bullet in the case. Breech seating!

Basically you charge your cases, put a little dry floral foam in each neck to keep the powder in, go to the range, drop the bullet into the breech and snug it up with a dummy case with a wooden plug in it, then seat the foam sealed powder charged case behind it.

Real pain? Yes. But you did say you didn't want to size the necks AND wanted it cheap...

[nekshot]

jonk, and I thought I was creative!!!!! Hey I might have a go at that procedure...lol

[frkelly74]

Lee collet dies are pretty cheap for neck sizing. you can reduce the diameter of the mandrel to a smaller diameter and maybe solve your problem.

[303Guy]

It is possible to 'glue' the boolits into the neck. The trick I've used is by devising a lube that is solid at ambient temperature (like parafin wax) and melting it then dipping the boolit base into the melt and gently seating them into the mouth. On solidifying, the boolit is held by a film of 'waxy lube'. These can be single loaded and maybe even magazine fed.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-606F_edited.jpg

This one was lubed by the 'waxy lube' by dipping the nose into the melted lube.

http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-457F_edited.jpg

50yds only and a second three shot group was the same size after adjusting the POI.

[nekshot]

ok, now we are getting ideas (practices) I can apply to this .321 diameter issue. Thanks every one, nekshot

[bcp477]

OK, let me understand. You said that your "bore" is 0.318". I assumed that you meant that your GROOVE diameter on this rifle is 0.318". Is that correct ? You mentioned an "8mmS"... NOT "JS" so I assume that this is correct. If that is the case, then WHY the heck are you using brass for the JS cartridge (designed for a 0.323" dia. bullet) ??? If THAT is what you are doing, but using a 0.321" bullet (to work in your 0.318" GROOVE dia. barrel)....then NO WONDER you have a problem !

Either get the CORRECT brass.....or do as Blammer suggests and get a custom die to neck your 0.323" brass down to the correct size. Or, perhaps you might find a 0.318" die from one of the reloading equipment companies.

[nekshot]

I know this sounds confusing but if I have it correct(and I am wrong often) the original 8x57 cartridge was mated to a .318 bore. and called 8x57J. Around 1905 or so they changed the bore to .323 and named that cartridge 8x57s. Some gun builders apparently used up remaining .318 bores chambered for the 8x57s. Did I confuse you yet, heck I am and I am the one trying to communicate this. In short I have a rifle with a .318 bore and a chamber that measures the outside neck at .351. I can (have been) overcoming this but I was curious how others over come this and I think I might be the only guy around here with this type of gun. Cast booits fill up the neck and get tight but jacket .321 don't and I rather shove .321 stuff down the bore then.323 stuff. U.S. ammo is loaded down so they can go down .318 or .323 bores with the same .323 Jackets. I want to use these hornady 32 gummy tip bullets. They shoot neat little groups that make me feel gooood. I wil continue to paper patch them up to neck diameter for the guns chamber. Thanks everyone and sorry about my stumbling around with this. nekshot

[swheeler]

I know many of you deal with this and I am inquisitive as to what is your most common approach. I have a 8mm sporter with a perfect 8mmS chamber. The bore is 318 and absolutely pristine. It shoots rcbs32-170 boolits better than I can shoot. What I like shooting in this gun is the hornady 32 gummy bullets, however they are 321 and the neck is much bigger for 323 bullets. Ok I don't have any more 30-06 military brass and don't want any more ( the last were corroded to much to use) . I have pinched the neck and used the lee crimp to (seat the bullet) and I have paper patched others to bring up to neck size and then crimp. I can tell no real difference in accuracy but the paper deal is a pain. Ok, how do you fellas handle this predicament?

Color me ignorant, what are 32 gummy bullets?

[nekshot]

Hornady red tipped pointed bullets for leveractions. The 32 caliber (for the 32 win.) is rated to operate around 1900 and 2200 fps. That is easy to achieve with this gun. All of this now relevant because somebody (in our americano lingo) took a 270 and chambered it with a 280! Just as an example to anyone who never heard of this situation.

[bcp477]

OK, you have a chamber for 7.92 x 57JS (which NORMALLY has a groove dia. of 0.323"...and uses 0.323" JACKETED bullets).....but you have a BARREL with a groove dia. of 0.318" ??!! Yikes !!!

And you are shooting 0.321" diameter JACKETED bullets through your 0.318" groove dia. barrel ??!!
Again, YIKES !!!

You NEED to shoot 0.318" dia. bullets through this barrel, if using JACKETED bullets....otherwise you are risking real trouble ! 0.321" jacketed bullets will GREATLY increase chamber pressures - so much so that, if your loads are anywhere near maximum, look out ! Even if your loads are mild, I wouldn't do it. 0.318" diameter are CORRECT for your rifle - with JACKETED bullets, period. I am well aware of the mild 0.323" loads produced by US companies. They load these down JUST IN CASE someone tries to shoot them in a 0.318" barrel - but that does NOT mean that this is a safe practice !!! It is NOT ! It is a failsafe measure - nothing more.

If you are using CAST bullets, then the proper size (for your barrel) is 0.319" - 0.320", generally speaking. 0.321" dia. CAST bullets, whether or not paper patched, will not be dangerous in your rifle. But, best accuracy will normally be obtained with 0.319" to 0.320" dia. bullets....in a 0.318" groove diameter barrel.

As for your chamber and it's out-sized dimensions for the barrel you have.....you can't really fix that (unless you re-barrel with a JS barrel (0.323")). But you DO need to load for your barrel as is, if you are going to shoot the rifle like that. That means using proper brass (for 0.318" dia. bullets)....or necking down 0.323" cases to accept 0.318" dia. bullets. The extra slop in the chamber you'll just have to live with. And as I said, if you shoot JACKETED, then they SHOULD be 0.318" diameter !

So, if I were you, I would get a set of 0.318" dies, or a custom (0.318") neck size die....and properly NECK size your cases. Neck size only - then your cases will fit the chamber (except the necks) and you'll have a decent shot at good accuracy - but while being SAFE in the process. I can't emphasize enough that you NEED to handle this CORRECTLY.

I'll be surprised if you can get any really accurate loads with this lousy combination - the gunsmith who put this thing together (all those years ago) should have known better. However, that is beside the point now.

If you should decide to ignore my (and others) advice on this - then you are ON YOUR OWN. Jambing a 280 into a 270 chamber/ barrel is NEVER an intelligent thing to do.....and NEITHER is trying to force a 0.321" jacketed bullet down a 0.318" groove dia. barrel !

[JMtoolman]

One thing you can do is make up some 8 MM brass out of 30-06 brass, This has the benifit of haveing the necks of the trimmed cases some three or four thousands thicker than the 8 MM brass. This would work to your advantage for then the necks would size down to a smaller interior diameter. I have made brass for the 8 MM like this and had to take some off the outside of the necks of the cases to get cast bullets to work in my rifle. Good luck, the toolman.

[nekshot]

bcp477, I kinda agree with you except this is why american ammo makers load the 8mm very low in performance, so .323 bullets don't spike the pressure in .318 bores. The result is a rifle in .323 bore is a puppy dog in performance unless handloaded or high performance ammo is purchasesd. I read that in europe shooters have no problem dealing with the differant bores, only americans get confused with the two. And this gun is accurate as in 5 shots in 5-8 inch at 80 yards With I believe around 40 gr of h4350 and the 165 gr hornady gummy bullets. Very mild load but fun to shoot.

[Gunnut 45/454]

nekshot
Groups of 5-8 " at 80 yards? Thats pretty bad my friend. If I was you I'd get that neck sizing die an put those necks where they need to be and use a .319-.320" cast or Jwod bullet. Probably have to go cast cause I don't know if anyone makes the old 8x57mm J bullets any more. Maybe a european maker?

[bcp477]

bcp477, I kinda agree with you except this is why american ammo makers load the 8mm very low in performance, so .323 bullets don't spike the pressure in .318 bores. The result is a rifle in .323 bore is a puppy dog in performance unless handloaded or high performance ammo is purchasesd. I read that in europe shooters have no problem dealing with the differant bores, only americans get confused with the two. And this gun is accurate as in 5 shots in 5-8 inch at 80 yards With I believe around 40 gr of h4350 and the 165 gr hornady gummy bullets. Very mild load but fun to shoot.


American manufacturers load specifically for the concept that some dummy will shoot .323 bullets through a .318 barrel. It is a CONTINGENCY to keep people from blowing up their rifles and suing the ammo makers over it - simple as that. As I said before, that DOES NOT MEAN that it is considered OK to make a regular practice of shooting OVERSIZED bullets through ANY barrel. To think so is idiotic and betrays an absolute LACK of understanding of ballistics. Sorry to be harsh - but you clearly need a dose of reality here. Just because you have gotten away with it so far does NOT mean that you ALWAYS will.

Shooters in Europe have "no problem" dealing with the .318 barrels because these are more prevalent there. They are a rarity here. However, those .318- barreled rifles almost never have .323 CHAMBERS. Yours is an oddball, created after WWI by a German gunsmith, in order to use available parts and have something to sell to sportsmen. It is neither optimum, nor typical for the breed. In fact, it is simply a BAD idea. But, there it is. You have it...and I'm sure it is a fine old rifle, judging by appearance. It is by NO means, though, a properly designed rifle - it is a "parts rifle".

5" to 8" groups at 80 yards SUCKS. Again sorry, but you need to hear this. That is NOT good accuracy, especially not for a rifle with a barrel in good condition. My sportered Yugo M48 Mauser, with a cut-down (.323) military barrel, iron sights and PROPER ammo, produces 1.5" groups at 100 yards, sometimes better. And that performance is nothing really "to write home about". 40 grains of H4350 with a proper (.318") 150 grain jacketed bullet would be good for roughly 33,000-34,000 psi. With an OVERSIZED .321" bullet, the pressure could easily be beyond 50,000 psi...though we can't know for sure. But, you are taking one H$LL of a big risk.

If the best you can get is 5" to 8" at 80 yards, then that load is NOT by any means a good one for that rifle. I'll say it one more time - if you are shooting JACKETED bullets LARGER than .318" in your .318" barrel - you are almost begging for a blown up rifle ! So, I IMPLORE you to listen to reason and experience on this.

But, heck, it's YOUR rifle. If you want to be stubborn and foolish - have at it. You're on your own with this one - so don't come back whining when something bad happens.

[nekshot]

sorry about my typo mistake. The gun shoots five bullets in one half to five eighth inch groups with jackets and one inch with cast )rcbs 32-170 fn boolit. Forgive me for my clumsiness with this

I made a typo mistake. The gun shoots one half to five eighth inch groups with jacket and one inch with rcbs 32-170 cast boolit on same load at 80 yards. Sorry and no I am not whining only asking what others are doing if they have the same situation. May this bring closure to this thread.

[jonk]

Nekshot, I have to say that some people have been very flippant with their comments, and have tossed around terminology regarding the cartridges in question without any knowledge of what they are saying or what you are doing; and in so far as I can, I apologize for them.

My suggestion of breech seating aside (which is a time honored technique, at least for single shot rifles) let me expound a bit more on what is going on here, and what I would suggest.

In 1888 the Germans adopted the 7,9X57I cartridge, with the I standing for Infanterie, nominally firing a .318" cupro-nickel projectile designed to 'upset' into the rifling of the slightly oversized .321" bore. Hence the term "I bore" which Americans, in their ignorance of fractal German script, read as a 'J.'

With the invention of spark-gap photography, it was possible to view bullet performance after leaving the muzzle, and for basllistic reasons, the Germans switched to a pointed bullet. (Spitzgeschoss). At the same time they increased bullet diameter to .323" and reduced bullet weight to roughly 150 grains. This lead to the 7,92X57IS. With the experience of WW1, they subsequently developed a heavier loading, with 198 gr bullets, known as the schweres Spitzgeschoss, or 7,92X57IsS. Which is the technically correct term for "8mm Mauser" ammo in most instances, if heavy ball.

Throughout this process, guns with bores measuring .318 (many sporting rifles, some of the I bore rifles, especially those re-barreled post-war in Czechoslovakia), .321, .323, and everything inbetween were created. In practice, military chambers were sloppy enough with enough neck clearance so that even a .323" bullet would fit the chamber of a gun with a .321 or .318" bore. The Germans, cognizant of the fact that this could create pressure problems, subsequently modified many existing rifles with a long throat to gently swage down the oversized projectiles with a minimum of pressure problems. One should not, however, accept that receivers marked "S" on Gew.88 rifles are all throated for fatter ammo without verifying this.

Point being, an 8mm Mauser chamber is an 8mm Mauser chamber. 8mm Mauser brass is 8mm Mauser brass. The slight difference in chambers that MIGHT exist is meaningless, as the length and shoulder are the same, just the neck diameter differs ever so slightly. The fact that the .321" bullet drops into the case after the case has expanded from firing shows that you have clearance to load that bullet/chamber/brass combo. The fact that you have an undersized bore is a bit odd, as the .318 was retired even by WW1, but of course, other nations and private gunsmiths continued to use them.

Personally speaking, for my I bore guns, I just removed the expander plug from my die set. Thus modified they size the brass down to hold a .319" bullet just fine. I'm not sure how they would deal with a .321" bullet. I suspect ok though modifying the expander by sanding 1-2/1000 off might be the way to go for this. Otherwise stock dies can be used.

If you are dead set against resizing, the bullet lube as glue seems as good an idea as any other, but it's certainly 'different' and depending on the load, may not permit pressure to develop enough to burn well.

[nekshot]

Thanks jonk, I simply wanted expierenced input not give a informative speech to the masses! Sounds like you know the situation well. I have a bunch of mausers and this one I believe was put together before ww1 and it definetly was a closet gun(no combat). It has a octagon barrel, nice scroll work and the receiver has nice stippling on top. No military marks at all anywhere. nice deep brown patina and the stock has alot of handcarving done to it, however the stock has a bad crack. I often wondered why it doesn't have double triggers but that is ok. I would post a picture but my daughter has to do that and she is at college. I can make everything work well with 30-06 brass but I was losing alot in reforming and then Hamish reminded to anneal the necks and this is what I forgot to do! Thanks to all.

[Hamish]

Okay, now you have done it! Pictures are a must at this point.

[flounderman]

are you just outside necksizing or are you using the expander plug to inside size the neck too. If you just size the neck and don't use an 8mm plug to size it back out, use a smaller caliber expander, will that work. If you are pulling an 8mm expander plug back thru the sized neck, you are defeating your purpose

[nekshot]

When using the 30-06 reformed cases after the initial firing I simply punch the primer with lee deprimer, insert new primer and powder and seat the bullet in seater die and crimp. So far they feed and chamber flawlessly.This might change with stouter loads.

[leadman]

I just helped a guy get his GEW88 shooting with my cast boolits. Slugged his bore and it measured .320" in the grooves. The throat was larger and a .323" boolit filled it well. My .323" Lyman Loverin boolit is working great for him.
Sanding down the or removing the expander ball should work for your situation just fine. If not buy the Lee Collett die and sand the mandrel down in it.

[plainsman456]

This sounds like something that would do what he wants it to do.

Never thought of using 06 brass.