Do you really need lube grooves with the improvedLLA?

[gunnerasch0]

Just wondering how important it have bullet lube rooves in a cast bullet if you are using the improved LLA+JPW recipes.
FTM do you needthe tumble lube "knurling" on the tumblelube bullets?

I have this vision of making a reamer with just enough taper on it that in an aluminum block you could push out a cooled lead slug
tumble lube it and have a workable cast bullet for tumble lubing.

Maybe the case mouth would scrape off the dried tumble lube when you seated te bullet, perhaps you would only need to seat the
bullet an 1/8" or so.

Given the axiom that there is nothing new under he sun, who hastried all this before?

Larry Murray

[btroj]

Only one way to know for sure, isn't there?

Let us know how it works out.

I think a slight knurling or texture on the bullet sides is a good thing, it helps hold lube.

[largom]

Nothing ventured, nothing gained! Give it a try and let us know the results.

Larry Miller

[shredder]

I think the other thing that the grooves accomplish is to dimish the contact surface with the bore and reduce friction. The grooves also gove the metal displaced by the lands some place to go. Let us know how you make out.

[Willbird]

Features on a bullet help you gauge fill out, the TL are harder for me to see than traditional lube grooves gauging fillout. The aluminum GM block and head castings I machined at one job were cast lost foam process...they added little "whiskers" to the molds in some places so they could gauge fillout, not sure if it was for the foam cores or the finish cast aluminum product.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry

Good Morning, I'm about set back up again down here. Gosh it rained over the weekend......well they call it rain anyway.....actually had to put my windsheild wipers on "intermitent" at the lowest setting for about 5 minutes!!!! Sunny and in the low 70s today.........

As to your question; My guess is there realy does need to be some type of grooves to hold lube during loading the bullet into the case and during transition into the barrel as you mention. We know .32 & .38 WCs are shot at low velocity and the all have grooves or knurling. Same with .22 RF ammuntion. If it was better not to have the grooves I'm sure the manufacturers wouldn't use them as the bullets would be easier and cheaper to make witout grooves/knurling. As mentioned though, only real way to know is to try it.

Larry Gibson

[Willbird]

Larry

Good Morning, I'm about set back up again down here. Gosh it rained over the weekend......well they call it rain anyway.....actually had to put my windsheild wipers on "intermitent" at the lowest setting for about 5 minutes!!!! Sunny and in the low 70s today.........

As to your question; My guess is there realy does need to be some type of grooves to hold lube during loading the bullet into the case and during transition into the barrel as you mention. We know .32 & .38 WCs are shot at low velocity and the all have grooves or knurling. Same with .22 RF ammuntion. If it was better not to have the grooves I'm sure the manufacturers wouldn't use them as the bullets would be easier and cheaper to make witout grooves/knurling. As mentioned though, only real way to know is to try it.

Larry Gibson

The Alberts bullets had no features to hold lube, they were swaged though.

[gunnerasch0]

Thanks for responses and suggestions so far.
Given that manufacturers tend to stay with what they are tooled up for until they are forced to change,
I could see the improved LLA not causing changes in the manufactured output. Didn't Richard Lee comment that when
CE Harris first came up with the liquified alox there was no interest expressed by Lyman nor RCBS since it would likely diminish
their lube and sizer business?
I have a sense that it ought to be possible to make a reamer with a slight taper that could start with a 0.30X hole and give
a 0.311 base with a 0.30X (X=.008-.011?) tip that would be easily pushed out when the molten lead solidified like in regular
casting. In which case one could make a mould that wouldn't have to be opened, just need a sprue plate on top for pouring lead in and
maybe a hinged plate on bottom to be opened if any of the slugs wouldn't fall out. Then would come question of whether the slug
needed knurling etc to hold the improved LLA.

So I wonder if anyone else here has done anything like this?
I'm not interested in reinventing the wheel.

Larry Murray

[pdawg_shooter]

Ideal made such a mold years ago. Called it an adjustable paper patch bullet mold.

[Pat I.]

Had LBT cut me a mould once with one cavity PB with no lube grooves and one with just the gas check shank. The bullet with the shank and lube shot fine with no problems. The PB one with no grooves wouldn't shoot and leaded no matter what I did. Tried liquid alox, moly coated them with the Neco kit, stood on my head and begged. Nothing worked. My idea was to improve the BC of the bullet for match shooting. Went back to conventional bullets and never looked back. Maybe if I'd slowed them down things would have been different but that wasn't what I was interested in so didn't try it. This was with a Shilen barreled BR rifle in 30 BR with a cast bullet friendly throat. The bullets were tapered in a die cut with the same throating reamer used to throat the barrel for an exact fit. BUT..... just because I didn't make it work that doesn't mean you can't. Maybe knurling the bullet would be the answer. Don't know didn't try. If you can make the mould yourself I say go for it. What's to lose?

[NVScouter]

I was thinking about rolling a couple over a mill file and see if it holds more lube.

[dromia]

For what it is worth I shoot a plain boolit with no lube grooves or knurling for the 310 Cadet from an Accurate mould I had cut based on a Lee GB design we had done here a few years ago, just with a slightly larger heel base for different cases.

I lube both both boolits with a very thin coating of Xlox, thinned over 50% with white spirit, with no leading at all. I'm shooting them at velocities up to 1250 fps with excellent accuracy.

[kweidner]

I have some .45 caliber swc pure lead boolits I use for slugging barrels that have no grooves. I don't remember the manufacturer. Never shot them but theu sure are nice for slugging them barrels. As soft as they are I would suspect they are really really old cowboy action fodder. Don't know for sure.

[longbow]

I have made several of the Ideal style cylindrical moulds for both .303 and .44. They work quite well and are much easier to make than a standard split mould especially if you do not have a milling machine.

In fact the first time I got good accuracy from my .44 Marlin was with one of these moulds made to suit the oversize Marlin bore.

I have used them for PP boolits which was Ideal's use but also and mostly for groove diameter smooth boolits.

I generally use 1 1/2" round ball and bore the cavity if for bores of .44 or larger (I have made up to 12 ga.). For smaller cavities like .30 cal I make a simple D bit then use that to finish the cavity like a reamer.

I have used both tumble lube and grease cookies under them with success. I have also knurled slightly undersize smooth boolits so they hold more lube and that worked well too.

If smooth, a two diameter boolit in the form of a nose bore rider will keep the lube on the nose even if lube is scraped off the driving portion during seating.

I have never pushed velocities or pressures using this style of boolit but they have given me accuracy as good as standard GG boolits with similar loads and no leading problems.

Are they any better than regular GG boolits? Probably not but the moulds are easy to make so it allows "playing" with boolit styles, weights, nose shapes and diameters without sinking pile of time and money into it.

You need very little taper for boolit release too. I just lap after boring and put a nice smooth finish into the mould with about 0.0005" taper over the length. Even dean cylindrical cavities will release if finish is smooth.

You could probably get away with careful work using only a drill press and hand tools but a lathe is real handy for making these moulds. I have a small lathe.

So, the short story is ~ go ahead and play. If you can machine to within a thou or two and keep the cavity at 90 degrees to the sprue plate you should have a workable mould.

Longbow

[runfiverun]

do a search for waxy lube.
the thread should be started by 303 guy.

i swage some 223 boolits from just the soft lead cores and a large primer cup as a gas check, the bases come out a titch small.
i just roll a canellure on them for a lube groove and shoot them like heavy 22 lr boolits in my 223.
great for small game and such.